Committees / Membership

June 20, 1994

Debates, pp. 5582-4

On June 17, 1994, after Oral Questions, Richard Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley) rose on a point of order to object to the fact that, during a meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development for the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-33, the Yukon First Nations Land Claims Settlement Act, and Bill C-34, An Act respecting self-government for First Nations in the Yukon Territory, Audrey McLaughlin (Yukon) had been present and allowed to vote even though she was neither a member nor an associate member of the committee. Since that was contrary to Standing Order 114(2)(c), Mr. Harris argued that the report on the two bills should be ruled out of order and that the committee should be directed to go back and resume the clause-by-clause consideration of both bills. Don Boudria (Chief Government Whip) replied that Ms. McLaughlin should not have been allowed to vote, but that her vote had not changed the outcome because of the wide margin between those voting yes and those voting no. The Speaker took the matter under advisement.^[1]

The Speaker handed down his ruling on June 20. He considered that he could intervene in the matter because it concerned a fundamental right of the House to establish the membership of a committee. He stated that Ms. McLaughlin did not meet the requirements for being an associate member of the committee under the Standing Orders and for functioning as a member of that committee, and that any vote cast by her during the committee proceedings on Bills C-33 and C-34 was void. However, since none of the votes taken in the committee would have been altered by the vote of any single member, the Speaker concluded that the reports were in order and that the House could proceed with the report stage of the bills.

Decision of the Chair

The Speaker: I am now ready to rule on the point of order raised by the honourable member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley on Friday, June 17, 1994. It concerns the appointment of the honourable member for Yukon as an associate member of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development during the committee’s consideration of Bill C-33, the Yukon First Nations Land Claims Settlement Act, and Bill C-34, An Act respecting self-government for first nations in the Yukon Territory.

At this time I would also like to thank the honourable members for Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, Kamloops, Mississauga South, Roberval and The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, for their valuable contributions to this discussion.

As was pointed out, Speakers have always been hesitant to interfere in the proceedings of committees of the House.

However, as Speaker Fraser explained in a ruling on March 26, 1990, at page 9756 of the Debates:

The Speaker has often informed the House that matters and procedural issues that arise in committee ought to be settled in committee unless the committee reports them first to the House. I have, however, said to the House that this practice was not an absolute one and that in very serious and special circumstances the Speaker may have to pronounce on a committee matter without the committee having reported to the House.

In the matter now before us I must also conclude that this is serious enough to require the intervention of the Chair because it concerns a fundamental right which belongs to the House and not to a committee, namely the right to establish the membership of a committee. Furthermore, the committee has reported to the House on the said bills and the proceedings of the committee are now before the House.

Let me now address the concerns raised by the honourable member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley.

First, the honourable member, citing Standing Order 114(2)(c), argued that since the honourable member for Yukon was not an associate member of the committee she could not be appointed a substitute member. Second, the honourable member noted that he had raised objection to the acceptance of the member for Yukon as an associate member but that this objection had been dismissed by the Chair of the committee. Third, the member argued that a breach of the Standing Orders had occurred and that the remedy to deal with this breach of the rules was not to be found inside the committee.

Finally, the honourable member requested that the Speaker take certain actions specifically. He asked that the reports of the committee concerning the legislation presented on Friday, June 17, 1994, be ruled out of order and that the committee therefore be required to reconduct the clause-by-clause examination of the bills in question. Arguing that the Chair of the committee had knowingly allowed the rules of the House to be broken, he also demanded that the current Chair of the committee resign and that another be chosen to preside over the re-examination of the bills.

Having reviewed the interventions of all members on Friday as well as the Minutes and transcripts of the committee proceedings, and also having consulted with the table, I am satisfied that the difficulties which arose in the committee were the product of an erroneous interpretation of Standing Order 114. The advice given to the Chair of the committee concerning the procedure for substitution of members was incorrect and unfortunately the actions taken by the Chair were based on this advice. May I also add that in no way was the honourable member for Yukon at fault in this matter.

While it is a tradition of this House that committees are masters of their own proceedings, they cannot establish procedures which go beyond the powers conferred upon them by the House. For example, a committee must seek the permission of the House to travel as they themselves are not so empowered. Likewise, committees do not have the power to establish or change their membership. This power is retained by the House and, in the present situation, is spelled out explicitly in Standing Order 104(4), which states:

(4) The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs shall also prepare lists of associate members for each Standing Committee and Standing Joint Committee referred to in this Standing Order, who shall be deemed to be members of that committee for the purposes of Standing Orders 108(1)(b) and 114(2)(a) and who shall be eligible to act as substitutes on that committee pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 114(2)(b).

Any report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs made pursuant to this Standing Order must be concurred in by the House for such an associate membership change to be effective. As no report appointing the honourable member for Yukon an associate member had been presented by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and thus no such report had been concurred in by the House, the honourable member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley was absolutely correct when he stated that the honourable member for Yukon did not meet the requirements as an associate member of the committee under the Standing Orders in order to function as a member of the Committee.

Under the rules of the House, all members are free to participate in the proceedings of committees, within clearly stated parameters. As Standing Order 119 reads:

119. Any member of the House who is not a member of a standing, special or legislative committee, may, unless the House or the committee concerned otherwise orders, take part in the public proceedings of the committee, but may not vote or move any motion, nor be part of any quorum.

As well, citation 766(1) of Beauchesne 6th edition notes that members of the House who are not members of a committee may participate during the committee’s examination of witnesses, but they do so usually at the discretion of the chairman and the committee.

Several members noted in their remarks that it was not the presence or the participation of the honourable member for Yukon in the work of the committee that was in question. In fact several even noted that since she is the only representative in this House for Yukon, her contribution was valuable. Rather, what was in question, as the honourable member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley noted, was that in allowing the honourable member for Yukon to vote in the committee the Standing Orders of the House had been breached.

The problems presented by the proceedings in this committee have served to illuminate for us possible difficulties with the understanding of the new rules regarding associate memberships of committees and the methods for choosing substitutes, particularly, as in this instance, where the active participation of a certain member could be extremely beneficial to the work of both the committee and the House.

The members of the committee are to be commended for wishing to include the honourable member for Yukon in their deliberations on matters which directly affect her constituents. However, it is incumbent upon the members of all committees to ensure that proper procedures are followed. This said, I must concur with the honourable member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley that by allowing a member to vote who, under the rules of this House, did not legitimately have status as a committee member, the Standing Orders were indeed breached.

I must therefore rule that any vote cast by the honourable member for Yukon in the committee proceedings on Bills C-33 and C-34 is void as she did not have the right to participate in any of the votes.

The honourable member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley has also argued that because the proceedings in the committee had been irregular, the report should be irreceivable. However, as the honourable member for Glengarry—Prescott—Russell pointed out, none of the votes taken in the committee would have been altered by the vote of any single member. Having reviewed the Minutes of the committee I must agree with this conclusion. Therefore, I do not find grounds on which to declare the reports out of order. Hence, the House can proceed with the report stage of these bills.

I hope and I expect that all those involved with committees of the House will take note of my comments today and will make every effort to ensure that such an incident will not reoccur.

P0904-e

35-1

1994-06-20