EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, November 19, 1996

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[English]

The Chairman: I call this meeting of the committee to order. We have with us the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Axworthy.

Welcome, Minister. Thank you for coming. I understand that you will be followed by Minister Boudria. We are grateful to have the opportunity to get some up-to-date information from you about our Haiti mission.

I understand that you're accompanied by various officials from the department. You may wish to identify them. I hope that, as usual, you'll be willing to make an opening statement and then members will be free to ask you questions.

Without any further introduction, welcome to the committee and thank you very much for coming.

Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

At this appearance today we have a number of distinguished officials: Michel Duval, our director of peacekeeping; Rear-Admiral King, our associate assistant deputy minister; Stephen Free, director of the Caribbean branch for CIDA; Denis Beaudoin, director of Haiti for CIDA; and Philippe Cousineau. I present this group of experts for you to closely question, so that I can sit back and enjoy their comments.

[Translation]

First of all, Mr. Chairman, today I will be telling you about what Canada has accomplished in Haiti. We have had a great deal of success. This success is the result of our decision to lead the United Nations' peacekeeping mission in Haiti. I would like to discuss our future presence in Haiti with the members of the committee.

[English]

As members know, we've been involved in peacekeeping in Haiti for nineteen months. Since March 1996 we have taken the lead in the mission, contributing the largest military and police contingents.

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In reporting on what has happened, I'd say that the UN presence has been very successful. It maintained stability, which was first achieved at the intervention in September 1994. There have been a number of major accomplishments since the United Nations took over from the U.S.-led force.

First, the Haitian army, responsible for many massive human rights violations, has been disbanded. In its place over 5,000 police officers have been recruited and have received basic training. They now form the bulk of Haitian national police, which is a civilian public security force.

Democratic elections have also been held at the presidency, parliamentary, and local government levels. Just recently Haiti reached an agreement with the IMF on a structural adjustment credit that would provide major infusions of economic support.

During that same period systematic violations of human rights have stopped, as has the massive exodus of boat people from Haiti, which was reaching our shores. As many members from Quebec would know, many were coming to Montreal in particular to seek refuge and sanctuary.

[Translation]

Canada has played a fundamental role in developing a strategy to build peace in Haiti. This is a long term strategy coordinated by the United Nations. The objective is to help Haiti go through the current transition.

Canada has had a major influence on this strategy, thanks to its military presence, its police officers and its development assistance.

The United Nations Support Mission in Haiti is a new kind of peacekeeping operation. The objective of this mission is not to maintain a cease fire, as is the case in other regions. Nor is it to monitor a peace agreement as in Central America or Cambodia. On the contrary, the mission in Haiti is intended to ensure the necessary security to build a stable, democratic society in that country. The mission is also intended to create the basic conditions necessary for Haiti's economic and democratic development.

This is the first practical example of a peace building mission. This is an initiative that Canada must strongly support.

[English]

At the core of the UN mission's mandate are two elements that aim to create this more stable political and economic environment, the first of which is training the Haitian police and coordinating the UN peace-building activities.

Canada's policy in Haiti is founded on the need for peace-building. Our participation in the UN mission is a contribution to peace, but we do this in many other ways on a bilateral basis.

Let me just say, Mr. Chairman, I think increasingly as we evolve from these new kinds of international situations, the strategy of peace-building becomes ever more important in the tools that are available as part of Canadian foreign policy and part of international foreign policy.

If you want to use an example from the medical world, if there's a casualty and someone's taken to the hospital, the first order of business is a triage: to stabilize the elements, to stabilize the blood, to make sure before any serious cure can be found that the patient is able to function in a normal way. That is the purpose of peace-building, to provide the same kind of quick response on the civilian side that we are so capable of providing on the military side. That is increasingly becoming an important and essential role as we go through the kinds of situations we find ourselves in in Haiti and now in Zaire.

On the bilateral basis, to give you an example of the initiatives we're taking, we provide specialized training to the Haitian police in areas such as management and criminal intelligence. We're working on reforming the justice system and training a contingent of professional judges. Other initiatives are supporting elections and providing assistance to the Haitian parliament to ensure that it will be able to play an effective legislative role.

We're working in a variety of ways with the Haitian civil society on educating the population. My colleague Mr. Boudria will be able to elaborate more on the specifics of those kinds of initiatives.

Canada is active in areas where we have particular competence and will help to ensure that we establish the foundation for a stable democratic country, in the long term.

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On the immediate question of the extension of the United Nations mandate, on November 12 President René Préval wrote to the UN Secretary General requesting an extension of the mandate for another seven months, taking it up to the end of June 1997.

Haiti has asked for our assistance in working with UN members to obtain the required extension. Our initial discussions with key countries on the Security Council, such as Russian and China, have been quite positive. We cannot yet be certain that the Secretary General's recommendations will be accepted by the Security Council. However, if the recommendations are accepted, Canada would expect to maintain its current level of participation. This includes the provision of approximately 750 military personnel and 100 police officers. It also includes the position of military commander responsible for the UN operation in that country.

Part of our military contingent is provided as a voluntary contribution to the mission. This represents the equivalent of 200 of our military personnel. The United States is also making a significant voluntary contribution to the mission, which is equivalent to the cost of 500 military personnel.

Other countries and institutions are also making major contributions to the effort. For example, the United States has committed $300 million in assistance and the European Union has committed $500 million over the 1995-97 period. The World Bank and the Inter-American Development Bank have pledged $450 million and $900 million respectively for infrastructure projects until 1999.

One can see that there is standing on the threshold a possibility for very substantial new investments in creating a new environment in Haiti, but the key question is to maintain the security. That kind of investment, that kind of rebuilding, that sort of reconstruction that is just beginning to take off cannot take place if the country returns to a country of instability and an insecure environment. That's why the extension is so essential.

Some of you may wonder, and I've heard questions in the House recently, whether we can continue to contribute troops to the mission in Haiti given our commitments in Zaire. As the Minister of Defence has stated many times, although some apparently haven't listened, our new role in Zaire will not affect our participation in the peacekeeping operations in either Bosnia or Haiti.

At present our military personnel and police officers are making a very important contribution to the stability of our region and to the long-term development of Haiti. Canada is recognized as an expert in peacekeeping and peace-building because of the success of operations such as the one in Haiti, and I believe it does enjoy very widespread support.

Mr. Chairman, that is the gist of my opening remarks. I'd be more than pleased to accept questions from members of the committee.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

[Translation]

Mr. Paré (Louis-Hébert): I too am pleased to have the Minister of Foreign Affairs with us today. You seem to be saying that in response to the request from the President of Haiti, Mr. Préval, China and Russia appear to have given their consent. Yet in June, when we renewed our mandate for five months, China seemed to be country that hesitated the most. Has China's attitude changed regarding Haiti?

Mr. Axworthy: In recent months, we have had several discussions with Chinese officials, particularly when China's Minister of Foreign Affairs visited Ottawa in September. We specifically discussed mandates for Haiti. It is impossible for me to give you assurances, but my perception is that the Chinese and the Russians are willing to continue to play their role in Haiti, as long as certain conditions are met.

There would have to be an action plan to make accommodations and to rebuild, restore, the country's economic and political stability. But it is important to have a mandate from Parliament and from the government of Canada to help the people of Haiti and the Secretary General of the United Nations to promote the mandates over the next two years.

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Mr. Paré: Given that President Préval is asking for an extension of only seven months - I am the one stressing the word ``only'' - is he asking for this short extension in order to make sure that there will be an extension, or does he really think that such a short period of time will be sufficient to solve the problems? After all, a few days ago, the United States announced that they would remain in the former Yugoslavia until 1998.

It seems to me that the situation in Haiti would merit a longer commitment.

Mr. Axworthy: First of all, the situation in Haiti is very different from the one in Bosnia.

You are familiar with the problems in Bosnia. First of all, there are several factions, several groups that are extremely passionate. For this reason, a large force is necessary to ensure stability.

In my remarks I said that the process in Haiti was one of peace building, in a safer environment for UN forces.

You will recall that Mr. ter Horst, the Secretary General's representative, was here last spring, I believe.

At the time, he talked about military forces being present in Haiti for about two years. After that, there would be a transition period, and the military presence would give way to other kinds of contribution, such as economic, social and political assistance.

At present, I think the seven month mandate is fine, and that's certainly Mr. ter Horst's opinion. We hope that by then, the country's police forces will be stable.

[English]

So I hope, as I said in my remarks - and some of the gentlemen here can elaborate perhaps, or Mr. Boudria can go into this in more detail - if we continue to supply and maybe even enhance the contributions we make through the peace-building side of the equation so that the police forces there, the Haitian national police, the judicial system and others, take root, then you will not have the same requirement for the continuation of the military police. Because the military there is basically a security back-up while the Haitians increasingly take over responsibility for their own affairs.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Ms Debien.

Ms Debien (Laval-East): Good afternoon, Mr. Axworthy.

We know that the UNMIH, which preceded the UNSMIH which is currently there, was strongly criticized for its inability to disarm the former military members responsible for the coup d'état.

Does the current UNSMIH have the same mandate as the UNMIH, and what is going on with the problem of disarming the forces responsible for the coup d'état?

Could you please give us an update.

Mr. Axworthy: Mr. Duval will be able to answer that.

Mr. Michel Duval (Director, Regional Security and Peacekeeping Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade): The United Nations force's mandate has never included disarming the former soldiers. That was the case for the UNMIH, and that's still the case with the UNSMIH.

However, the force's role is to support the Haitian police with this task. During the last mandate, during the UNSMIH, the United Nations force did help train the Haitian police and did provide assistance. The Haitian police has been much more active in disarming the former soldiers.

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[English]

The Chairman: Mr. Assadourian.

Mr. Assadourian (Don Valley North): Thank you very much.

A quick question, Mr. Minister. Are we on target with our financial contributions to Haiti? Are we short, or at surplus, in our obligations? Any idea?

Mr. Axworthy: Mr. Assadourian, we are one of the few countries that pays its bills on time at the United Nations. As I said at the general assembly, I wish others were as prompt and as quick with their payments. It would save a lot of problems for the United Nations.

We make a contribution to the peacekeeping fund of the United Nations, which helps pay for the UN portion of it. We also, within the existing estimates of the Department of National Defence, make a contribution for the 200 personnel who are not covered under the United Nations. We simply cover the cost of those.

The Chairman: As I recall, when you were here when we were discussing the original mission you were quite closely examined as to what the cost would be. You were able to write some letters subsequently to the members of the committee suggesting that in fact the United States would be assuming a greater burden of the cost than had originally been assumed. I'm sort of going on the assumption that this would be true if the period were prolonged, as well.

Mr. Axworthy: That's our assumption, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: In fact, the net cost to Canada could be -

Mr. Axworthy: Yes, there were some pretty highly inflated figures when the last extension was announced. Through skilful negotiation by the Prime Minister when he met with Bill Clinton at the G-7 meetings last spring we were able to obtain, let's say, a much more equitable sharing of the responsibilities and costs.

The Chairman: You didn't have to negotiate with Senator Helms, I take it.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Axworthy: I will leave that up to you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: Thanks a lot. We already have our problems in this committee without adding that.

[Translation]

Mr. Bergeron.

Mr. Bergeron (Verchères): I have three questions, and if you don't mind, Mr. Axworthy, I'm going to ask them all at once. They don't go together particularly well, but they are rather short.

First of all, in the past few weeks we heard - perhaps this was just disinformation, but I would like to hear what you have to say about it - and it wasn't the case when I travelled to Haiti last May, but in any event we heard that Canadian soldiers have apparently been subject to some hostility from the local Haitians in the past few weeks or months. This may have just been stirred up by the people responsible for the coup d'état who are trying to destabilize the Haitian government during this somewhat more precarious time within the democratic regime. So I would like to get some information about this alleged hostility that our soldiers may have encountered for a number of weeks.

Furthermore, we have the recurrent problem, the latent problem of Canadian police officers of Haitian origin who were trained in Regina. Some of them still haven't been integrated into the police force, or at least, into the Haitian security forces. So there is still a problem there. We are constantly hearing from Canadian police officers of Haitian descent who are wondering why they were trained, at the taxpayers' expense, and are not being used.

I have one final question, Mr. Axworthy. We know that until quite recently, some of the costs of the operation were being covered by Canada itself. Earlier, you seemed to be saying that, contrary to what was done in previous cases, China seemed to be displaying a much more open attitude. Does that mean that the United Nations might cover all the costs of the operation?

Those are my three questions, Mr. Axworthy.

Mr. Axworthy: Mr. Chairman, perhaps Admiral King could answer the first question.

Rear-Admiral James A. King (Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Communications, Department of National Defence): I haven't heard of any hostility toward Canadians. Perhaps there is hostility toward police officers trained by Canadians or soldiers. Are you talking about members of the armed forces or police officers?

Mr. Bergeron: I must admit that the information we have received was very sketchy and very general.

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That is why I asked you whether this was disinformation or whether Canadian soldiers or police officers, or police officers trained by Canadians, are subject to some hostility.

RAdm King: I haven't heard of a single case.

Mr. Axworthy: I would ask Mr. Duval to answer the other two questions.

Mr. Duval: The police officers who were trained in Regina are currently working in the security services in Haiti. They have not been integrated into the police force because of a specific difficulty, namely that the Police Act prohibits foreign nationals from working with the police. However, they are all working as consultants.

So the problem was solved temporarily in this way. The Police Act has to be changed, but that is a long-term matter for the Haitian government.

Mr. Bergeron: How is that issue being handled?

Mr. Duval: Very slowly and gradually. That is, the Haitian government tried to give them police duties as consultants, in order to solve the human problem, and the problems of income and work.

But the legislative issue is more difficult. You know the speed at which the Haitian Parliament works. We witnessed that during the debates on the legislation to modernize public service undertakings. So we will probably have to wait several more months.

As far as China's attitude goes, we should not expect the UN to pay more than it is paying at the moment, that is the cost of 600 soldiers. So the financial contribution made by Canada and the United States would remain about the same. It amounts to $11 million for the United States. Admiral King could tell us how much it is for Canada.

RAdm King: I think at the moment, Canada is paying about $8 million, which is about 15% of the total cost of the mission.

Mr. Bergeron: I see. If possible, I would like to come back to the matter of Canadian police officers of Haitian origin, because you seem to say that they have all been integrated into the police force as consultants or some equally vague term.

However, the fact is that they have apparently not all been integrated, because there are still some in Montreal who are wondering what is going to become of them. I don't know whether you have exactly the same information as I do, but there seems to be a considerable discrepancy here.

Mr. Duval: Absolutely. You are quite right.

All those who stayed in Haiti and who accepted the positions offered by the Haitian department got positions in Haiti. But you are quite right to say that some of them returned to Canada and are here now. This is a strategic decision that they made about their future.

Mr. Bergeron: What pressure or what steps are being taken by the government with Haitian authorities, if not to speed up the legislative process, at least to try to find the least unpleasant solution possible under the circumstances, given that Canada has invested human and financial resources to train these police officers, who, in most cases, are not very pleased about the solution that has been found?

I think we are the loosers to some extent. We've wanted to assist Haiti by supplying it with skilled police officers, and these people are not being used as they should be. So, have any steps been taken, or are things simply being allowed to take their course?

Mr. Axworthy: Every time a Canadian minister - myself, Mr. Pettigrew or Mr. Boudria - has a meeting with his Haitian counterpart, he asks questions about the problems facing the Canadian police officers. I think the answers we are getting from the Haitian government are very positive and interesting. However, as Mr. Duval said, there are some legislative problems.

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I would like to make a suggestion. Perhaps the members of this committee could go to Haiti some day and have a discussion with their counterparts in parliament there. The committee should perhaps write to the foreign affairs committee in Haiti to talk about these problems and ask some questions.

The Chairman: We should hold a meeting of this type in Ottawa in February, Minister. We have such wonderful weather then.

Mr. Bergeron: If the minister is serious about his suggestion, we would have to start by seeing whether we could get the financial resources required to carry out such a project. You know how hard it is for this committee to get the money it needs despite the fact that we are the foreign affairs committee. You know how difficult it is to get approval from Parliament for the budgets we require to carry out our responsibilities in the area of foreign affairs.

Mr. Axworthy: We are very interested in pursuing other measures to advance reconstruction efforts in Haiti, including improvements in the way the Haitian parliament works. From my experience, I think an exchange between Canadian members of Parliament and members of Parliament from other countries could be most beneficial. I will raise the issue with my colleagues.

[English]

The Chairman: But I take it, Minister, you might feel it would be equally appropriate, perhaps, for some Haitian deputies to come here and get the sense of how this Parliament functions.

[Translation]

Mr. Axworthy: That's a good idea.

[English]

The Chairman: These exchanges can go either way.

Mr. Axworthy: Maybe, Mr. Chairman, the committee members can discuss amongst themselves what they think would be the alternatives, and then I'd be glad to hear it. You could either send me a letter or talk to me about it.

The Chairman: Yes, I'm sure our steering committee would be interested in pursuing that. It doesn't have to be the whole committee; a few members can go.

Mr. Axworthy: A visit here could be extremely helpful, although I'm not sure February would be the right time.

The Chairman: No, exactly. It's the reverse flow in February.

Mr. Morrison, I have you next on my list, but since I have to leave in a few minutes, may I ask a few questions and then we'll turn it to you?

I have a procedural question first. Minister, the mandate ends on November 28. The procedure followed in respect of the last mandate was that you consulted the committee and we actually passed a resolution prior to anything concrete being done by the government. Would it be your expectation that this committee would pass a resolution prior to November 28, I don't say as a condition precedent, but at least as a part of the process of making this decision?

Mr. Axworthy: Mr. Chairman, it's very helpful if we have a supporting resolution from parliamentarians on this committee. It gives an added strength to the commitment and certainly helps in our negotiations at the United Nations.

The Chairman: Secondly, going to the situation in Haiti, I wonder if you could comment a little further on the basic political conditions. We've heard some suggestions that Mr. Aristide himself may be a bit of a destabilizing feature in terms of his political ambitions and that Mr. Préval's condition may not be as secure as one would want to see in terms of the political climate. I wonder if you have any comments on that.

As a personal reflection, it would seem to me a rather odd procedure to say we're going to keep 750 troops there for another seven months and then assume that in seven months suddenly the whole 750 are going to go away. Human nature doesn't seem to operate that way. It would seem to me there would be a gradual reduction in the numbers rather than an abrupt pull-out of everybody.

.1600

I just wondered if you would comment on why, maybe in the next course of the mandate, we wouldn't see some reduction in numbers, or on when we might see some form of reduction over time.

Mr. Axworthy: That's very much within the purview of the Minister of Defence and the military people to plan what would be the most appropriate phase-in and so on within that mandate. The last occasion I had to talk to the military general in command, it was conceded that there could be transitions. My primary concern now is to get the mandate renewed so that we can continue. Without that, I think we could see a real deterioration very quickly, because I think it is very much a central element in maintaining that secure environment.

No one has a computer printout on exactly how things will evolve in countries of this kind. Nobody would be prophetic enough to say that we can predict exactly, day by day, the levels of progress. Sometimes you make great progress and sometimes you take setbacks. Things happen. What we do know is that over the time since we've been there we have seen substantial signs of progress, particularly on the political governmental front.

The administration President Préval has made, in our view, shows quite important steps forward. They have a very stable administration. Of course, there are oppositions. There are still some people from the former regime who reappear. They're not totally quiescent, which is one reason why you need the force there - to make sure there is a good, secure environment.

There is also a lot of political debate. Frankly, I don't think we should, from our own experience, be surprised that there might be political differences within Haiti about the best way to develop and the best way to conduct affairs. We certainly have enough differences here. To me, that is a sign of a healthy democracy beginning to emerge. Now, it's a beginning one, but let's not assume there has to be a monolithic approach to this. Let's in fact encourage that kind of diversity.

The Chairman: Mr. Morrison.

Mr. Morrison (Swift Current - Maple Creek - Assiniboia): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to pursue the chairman's question a little more. What you are saying, effectively, is that we are going to maintain the status quo for another seven months. Would it be fair to assume that since you're not talking about any transitional reduction of forces that we will be back here again in seven months looking for yet another extension? In other words, this piecemeal approach is going to go on and on?

Mr. Axworthy: To begin with, in my opening remarks I made it quite clear that we're not interested in the status quo. We want to use the period of the United Nations operations to help the Haitian people and their government start building their society on both the governmental side and economic side so they can eventually take full responsibility for their own governance and don't need a UN presence.

The period of the next seven months would be a period of building...to continue to help. As I said, we established three weeks ago a strategy paper on peace-building, which I would be very happy to send to you, Mr. Morrison. I know you'd be most interested in reading it. We've established ways in which we can help these countries coming out of severe crisis, post-conflict, to begin to repair some of that damage and to begin building new institutions.

That is why I think the next seven months is a very crucial period. We now have 5,000 people in the police force. Some training has taken place. They are now increasingly taking more and more responsibility for on-the-ground policing, but they do need experienced police officers from Canada to provide that backup. They do need the UN military force to ensure that there is a safety valve there, and also to provide a corollary presence.

Our whole philosophy and our whole direction is evolution and to try to work as effectively as we can to see the Haitian society become fully self-sufficient and independent. Can we guarantee that in seven months? Of course I can't guarantee that. I think anybody who does would not be forthright with the committee. Do I hope it can happen? Yes, I do. I think I take the recommendations of President Préval and the United Nations as a basis for that. We are simply responding to their needs, but we do know that substantial progress has been made and in the next seven months I think we can go even further.

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Mr. Morrison: My second question is a little more specific. I have been trying to find out some detail on the cost of the mission, and perhaps the minister can lead me through this.

The U.S. is financing 500 of our troops in that country. Now, does that mean they are paying the entire cost of maintaining 500 members of the Canadian forces, or does it mean they are picking up the incremental cost of keeping them in Haiti? In other words, are we still paying the costs of those 500 as though they were at Petawawa, for example, and the U.S. is picking up only the extra tariff, or are they paying the full cost of maintaining 500 members of the Canadian forces?

Mr. Axworthy: Mr. Chairman, I'll try to help Mr. Morrison with this. First, in terms of the U.S. contribution, they do not pay for the Canadian troops. Five hundred of our troops are paid for through the United Nations.

Mr. Morrison: Is the U.S. putting up the money?

Mr. Axworthy: No, I'm sorry. We all put up the money for the peacekeeping fund of the United Nations. In fact the United States is substantially in arrears in its contribution to the peacekeeping fund. All the countries are assessed by the United Nations to support peacekeeping missions sponsored by the United Nations around different parts of the world.

I think about 550 Pakistani soldiers are also part of the United Nations force, and the United States is making a direct contribution for the support of the Pakistanis who are there. They are not supporting Canadians. We are covering the extra costs for the additional 200-odd Canadian forces.

I think, Rear-Admiral King, you said it was about $11 million.

RAdm King: It's about $8 million.

Mr. Axworthy: It's $8 million.

Mr. Morrison: Regardless of where the money is coming from, Mr. Minister, you still haven't answered my question. Is the UN then fully financing the 500 members, or paying only the incremental cost of having them in Haiti?

RAdm King: It's the incremental cost, Mr. Morrison, that we in fact charge.

Mr. Morrison: Okay, thank you. It took me some months to get that.

The Chairman: You got it here in five minutes from the minister. Are you happy with that?

Mr. Morrison: Yes.

The Chairman: Mr. Bergeron.

[Translation]

Mr. Bergeron: You and I both know, Minister, that it is not enough to have soldiers in the country who will ensure that there are no riots. We must also help the Haitian government to assume responsibility for the stability of the country. That is more or less the objective of the police force that is there to help train a national police force in Haiti.

One of the major problems we saw when I was in Haiti was that the Haitian government has trouble collecting the taxes it needs to exercise some control over the country. It was not able to ensure efficiency or stability.

Are there any plans to offer the Haitian government the services of tax collection experts from the Canadian government? Heaven knows the Canadian government has a great deal of expertise in tax collection. Is there any discussion of possibly providing this type of assistance to the Haitian government?

Mr. Axworthy: I will ask Mr. Free to answer this specific question about the type of aid we could provide, but I would first like to say that Mr. Préval's government has made a great deal of progress in the area of taxation reform and in developing a revenue system.

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The best proof of this is that international financial institutions, such as the IMF, have given their approval. They have set up a program to establish an income tax system in Haiti. This is a sign that some progress has been made.

Mr. Free could perhaps comment on your question about taxation.

Mr. Stephen D. Free (Regional Director, Caribbean Program, Americas Branch, Canadian International Development Agency): It is true that we and other supporters give the Haitian government technical assistance in the area of tax reform. You are right to say that the Haitian government is facing a major challenge: it has to improve its revenue base so that it can support its own investments in such key sectors as health and education.

We now have a project, which is a sort of line of credit, whose objective is to provide Canadian technical assistance. We are holding discussions with various Haitian departments to determine what type of technical assistance they need. One of the possible areas is tax reform.

We have to have further consultations with the other financial supporters, because, as you know, IMF and the World Bank are also involved in the process of strengthening Haitian government institutions.

The Chairman: Mr. Paré.

Mr. Paré: For some time, the idea of a white helmet force has been around, somewhat at the suggestion of Argentina. I know, Mr. Minister, that you are quite open to this possibility, because you established a $10 million fund, I believe, to look into this avenue.

In a period of peace building, such as the one that exists in Haiti at the moment, might this be a good environment in which to experiment with this idea on a broader scale?

Mr. Axworthy: As you said, my colleague, Mr. Boudria, and I have announced a co-operative strategy for peace building. The idea is to develop a rapid, efficient response through civilian forces, and, particularly, to use the expertise and skills of many Canadians who can lay down the essential foundations for building peace.

My colleague, Mr. Boudria, will be going to Haiti tomorrow, I believe, and he may look at your suggestion with the Haitian authorities and their officials.

In the course of my discussions with a number of departments from other countries, it appears that a force of this type was effective in certain circumstances. However, Canada always plays an active role, for example, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is very effective at establishing the foundations of a police force in other countries. Lawyers, judges and human rights personnel are all very effective in what they do. As I announced previously, we will be establishing a list of Canadians with skills in these fields.

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Mr. Boudria and I are very interested in all ideas about ways to increase development to ensure stability in Haiti. After his visit, Mr. Boudria will be talking to me about what could be done to help Haiti more. We will certainly be studying your recommendations.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Are there any other comments? Mr. Assadourian.

[English]

Mr. Assadourian: Nobody has mentioned NGOs. What kinds of NGO operations run in Haiti?

Mr. Free: There is a large number of NGOs we are working with in Haiti. Canadian NGOs have had a long history of support and participation and involvement in Haiti, including through the period of the embargo. We have worked extensively with Canadian NGOs such as MEDA, CECI, CARE,

[Translation]

the Canadian Council for International Co-operation, OXFAM-Quebec, Développement international Desjardins, the Société de coopération pour le développement international and CARE.

[English]

These are all Canadian non-governmental organizations whose efforts in Haiti we are supporting at this time.

Mr. Axworthy: A small personal footnote. We don't see a lot of attention paid to the specific work our Canadian NGOs are doing with the help of CIDA. When I was in Haiti last spring - I think, Mr. Bergeron, you were part of that company - I was given a helicopter ride over to the Cap-Haïtien area, where a couple of Canadian NGOs were working in one of the most remote rural areas you could possibly imagine. I didn't know where they were landing there; I thought I was going to be ditched or something. I wasn't sure why we were going there.

When we got there I found out that the most important happening that had taken place in that village in living memory was that the Canadian NGOs had help them build, first, a road to start getting their crops to market, and second, a cistern where they could get clean water. You would have thought you'd just won the Ontario lottery the response was so heart-warming.

It's hard to describe the response you get from this. I don't know if we have the exact figure, but it was a very small investment of money, because these people had built the road with basic tools, hoes and scrapers and so on. It was incredible, the transformation it made to get clean water and for the first time to be able to move their crops into a cash market. Up to that time, they had been isolated up in the hills.

That's the kind of work that goes on day by day. Some very courageous young Canadians, and older Canadians, for that matter, are doing that kind of work. I think we as parliamentarians should stand in enormous appreciation for what they're doing.

[Translation]

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Are there any other questions?

Unless you have a final statement that you would like to make before we adjourn until we hear from the Minister for International Co-operation, I would like to thank you, Mr. Minister, for appearing before the committee. The committee will definitely be considering the mandate for renewal in the next few days and may make some recommendations to you on this.

Mr. Axworthy: Thank you very much.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): The meeting is suspended for a few minutes.

.1619

.1630

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Order, please.

We will now resume our proceedings. It is our pleasure to have with us today Mr. Don Boudria, Minister of International Co-operation, who is accompanied by Ms Huguette Labelle, the President of CIDA, and the witnesses who appeared with Mr. Lloyd Axworthy.

This is the first time you have appeared before the committee, Mr. Minister, and I hope this will be the first of many fruitful meetings you have with us. Ms Labelle is not a newcomer to our committee, as she has appeared here on many occasions. I would like to welcome her.

I understand, Mr. Minister, that you have some opening remarks to make before we proceed with our dialogue.

The Honourable Don Boudria (Minister of International Co-operation and Minister responsible for the Francophonie): I would like to start by introducing the people I have with me today. This may be of some use to the committee. I would like to introduce Admiral King, Mr. Free from CIDA, Dr. Labelle, the President of CIDA, Mr. Duval from Foreign Affairs, andMr. Cousineau.

I would like to start by saying that although I've been in public life for 20 years, this is the first time I have appeared before a parliamentary committee as a minister. I am pleased to have this opportunity to make these brief remarks before this committee and my colleagues.

I would certainly like to talk to you about the Canadian Co-operation Program in Haiti, about its objectives and challenges. I would just like to say a few words about the tremendous suffering that country has seen over the past 200 years. There has been an unfortunate succession of dictatorships, coups and predatory leaders. Those leaders belonged to the army or were very strongly supported by the Haitian army.

[English]

As a result, Haiti is the poorest country in the Americas. It has an average annual income of $250, and a minimum wage of $1.50 per day. That's not per hour folks, that's per day. Its infant mortality rate is unacceptable and it has one of the world's lowest life expectancies. Haiti's illiteracy rate stands at something like 70%, and poverty is rampant. The vast majority of Haitians do not have access to health services or primary education. They have no drinking water or running water, electricity or telephone.

Haiti's public service is ineffective, very poorly managed and ill-trained. It lacks the means and facilities to manage government decisions and to offer the basic services essential to the population.

[Translation]

A major change occurred in 1990 following what I would call a credible election. For the first time in its history, the country voted in a president and a parliament who represented the poor. That was the first step in the right direction. Unfortunately, that very fragile democracy frightened the army, who overthrew president Aristide and his government a few months later, in October 1991.

In the three subsequent years, thousands of people were assassinated and basic rights were violated. Haitians were unwilling to accept that and fought, with the support of the international community, for a return to democracy in Haiti. It is important to mention the critical role Canada played in returning president Aristide and his government to power in Haiti, an effort that was supported by the entire Haitian community in Canada.

Besides our political involvement to facilitate his return to power, we worked with his government while in exile and prepared a set of projects to help Haitians renew their development efforts. In October 1994, under the auspices of the United Nations, the constitutional government was reinstated in Haiti.

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[English]

In the spring of 1995, at the express request of the Government of Haiti, the Security Council agreed to the presence of a United Nations military and police force, whose mandate has been renewed twice since then. Why? One of the key reasons was that the president dismantled the army. In addition, it was announced that a Haitian national police force would be formed to protect the rights of the citizens and to maintain order as soon as it acquired the necessary experience.

In February 1996 we witnessed an historic event. For the first time in history, Haiti chose a successor to an elected president. This was made possible thanks to the climate of security established with the United Nations.

What have we done since the return of constitutional government in Haiti? First, as mentioned, we quickly implemented projects to reduce poverty in cooperation with Canadian non-governmental organizations, as well as Canadian business people from the energy sector. These projects involve providing food aid, renovating schools and health clinics through labour-intensive projects, distributing tools, organizing and holding parliamentary and presidential elections, supporting human rights organizations, reinforcing the cooperative movement, improving the electricity capacities of Port-au-Prince, and many other initiatives carried out by numerous local and Canadian NGOs.

Second, in 1995 we were asked to assist in training Haiti's new national police force, in cooperation with the United States, France and the United Nations. The RCMP and many Canadian police forces were directly involved in this institutional support, and this training continues as we speak. At this moment about 100 Canadian police officers are helping Haitian police officers in the field. They are providing training courses at the national police school that complete the initial training provided in 1995.

[Translation]

Along with the United States and France, we were also asked to participate in their judicial reform, in the training of judges and magistrates, and to help the Haitian Justice Department become more effective by building and outfitting 14 court houses in regional capitals, as well as training court staff.

That gives you an example of our involvement. In the meantime, we have also been involved in the Haitian Government's negotiations with multilateral institutions, such as the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the Inter-American Development Bank.

These discussions led to the establishment of an economic reform program whereby Haiti could finally move towards more sustainable development and economic growth.

The Haitian Parliament has carefully studied all of these reforms and after numerous amendments, approved their implementation.

The program voted in by the Haitian Parliament was approved by the Monetary Fund last October and should lead to the creation of an economic framework likely to produce some growth, albeit small, in its first few years of operation.

We will participate in these economic reforms by sending wheat flour to Haiti, which will then be sold on public markets. Then, with the profits from sales in local currency, in gourds, we will support the Haitian Government's budget, along with other bilateral and multilateral donors so that Haiti can meet its budget and development commitments.

Meanwhile, the Haitian Government has introduced strict tax measures which have increased its own revenues. It has better control over its expenditures and paid back a large portion of salaries-in-arrears that had not been paid for several months.

Economists have also confirmed that approximately 20,000 jobs were created in processing plants in Port-au-Prince over the past two years.

I'm sure you all remember that jobs had nearly completely disappeared after the international embargo.

[English]

How do we see the future for Haiti? In this regard I must confess that I share the view of President Préval, with whom I will be meeting this Thursday. He maintains that it is absolutely vital for the UN to continue its support mission in Haiti for several more months in order to complete the training of Haiti's national police force, which is not yet ready to assume on its own its vital role in ensuring stability in Haiti.

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We've come a long way since March 1995, when the first cadets were admitted to the police academy. We still have a long way to go. Canada and the other international partners have indicated that they will continue to support the government of Haiti in its efforts to ensure professional training of its fledging police force.

Will Haiti's national police force be able to perform its role six or eight months from now? I hope so, but there is still much more to be done. It is not enough to give four months of basic training to 5,000 or 6,000 new recruits. Training must also be provided to managers, inspectors, police commissioners, rapid intervention teams and managerial staff at all levels.

The provision of material endowments and communications means must also be completed, while at the same time restoring the municipal police stations. It is an important undertaking involving France, the United States and UN agencies.

In addition to the economic reforms that it has begun, Haiti must develop a judicial system that will respect human rights and restore people's confidence in its institutions. Here again we are closely involved with other donors, and we think we are on the right track by supporting the initiatives Haiti launched more than a year ago. These include providing a training program for all judicial personnel and a review of codes, legislation and initiatives to restore tribunals of the peace, and to make them operational.

[Translation]

And, of course, we continued to support Haiti's efforts to reduce poverty and to strengthen the government.

In January 1995, in Paris, at the invitation of Haiti and of multilateral organizations, we set up a plan and followed it. We hope a second meeting will be held in Haiti within the next few months, where we can announce a new direction for international co-operation in Haiti by confirming the progress made to date and by making medium and long-term plans this time.

Canada will continue to make poverty reduction a priority by focusing specifically on meeting basic human needs, ensuring economic growth and maintaining and strengthening democracy and on a better governance.

To reach those objectives, we will continue to call upon Canadian partners, non-governmental organizations or private firms, to help us with initiatives that will directly benefit the Haitian people. As you know, Canadians have always shown a great deal of solidarity toward the Haitians, which has spread to the numerous NGOs, institutions and religious congregations that are active in Haiti. We are proud of them.

Tomorrow morning, Mr. Chairman, our colleague, Mr. Paré, will join me on an official visit to Haiti where we will meet the key players in the Haitian government and the UNSMIH. The main purpose of this mission is to reiterate Canada's support for the efforts made by Haiti to reduce poverty and to assure them of our support to the best of our means and capacities.

[English]

Day-to-day economic realities remain the same for the vast majority of Haitians today. Their daily lives are still a struggle for survival, and this struggle will continue for a long time to come. No matter how considerable and well targeted, international cooperation alone cannot change the mentalities, attitudes and practices ingrained by decades of dictatorship.

Yet there is so much more to be done in Haiti. If we give them time, the people of Haiti should and can change this state of affairs, but the change we so ardently hope for can only occur in a secure environment that respects the basic rights of all Haitians. The international community can serve as a catalyst. In other words, it can facilitate this change through human and financial resources. However, it is up to the people of Haiti alone to undertake this enormous task and to build a better future for themselves.

[Translation]

It is also true that for the past two years, despite much hemming and hawing, the Haitian government has shown that it really wants to develop the country.

.1645

Some progress has been made, perhaps not spectacular, but it is nonetheless a step in the right direction.

Haiti will remain unpredictable. Despite all the problems and divisions in that country, sustainable development is possible, which means international aid and international solidarity are essential.

In closing, because Haiti is a member of the Francophonie and is the poorest country of our hemisphere, because it has a government that is representative of its people, and because it has undertaken major changes in its way of governing, we believe this country deserves our support, be it on the military front through the United Nations or through development assistance, as I just described.

Mr. Chairman, I would be pleased to answer any of your questions to the best of my knowledge. As you said, there are officials from the Canadian International Development Agency and others here with me. I am available to answer your questions.

[English]

I want to add that I had invited representatives from both opposition parties. Apparently a Reform Party member was not available, but even at this late hour I'm informed there is still one place left on the plane. We would be quite willing to bring an additional colleague if such interest were expressed before the end of the day. Apparently it can still be done.

[Translation]

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Thank you, Mr. Boudria.

Mr. Paré.

Mr. Paré: Last September, I had the opportunity to appear on a show with Mr. Pettigrew that was produced in Haiti. When we met the members of Parliament and senators, they told us that their debt burden was so high that it was difficult to jumpstart the economy. The debt is just $1 billion, but that is a lot in an economy where the GDP is $1.5 billion.

Will the debt be taken into account in the programs CIDA or financial institutions want to implement?

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Ms Labelle.

Ms Huguette Labelle (President, Canadian International Development Agency): The Minister said that the World Bank's structural adjustment was becoming an extremely important instrument. As far as we are concerned, it was a worry for us, because negotiations took a long time, both in Haiti with their Parliament, because a parliamentary resolution was required, and the negotiations between the Haitian government and the World Bank. We now have that resolution, and I think that will help a great deal.

Moreover, we, donor countries, have a number of programs that can help with the structural adjustment, by providing food assistance, for example, and selling it on site so that those funds can then be applied to the balance of payments.

So there are a number of such instruments. You are correct, Mr. Paré, in saying that this is a huge problem, because they could end up paying their debt with the money they have. It will be interesting to see what President Préval and the Finance Minister have to say about that tomorrow.

Mr. Boudria: We were told that just before the embargo, there were approximately 70,000 jobs in Haiti. At one point, there were none, or just about. Today, there are 20,000. Haiti has not yet reached the same point as they were prior to the embargo, but some progress has been made, and obviously the government's ability to pay back its debt or to fund its programs depends primarily on the number of people working, the number of people who pay taxes, and secondly, on their ability to do so afterwards.

.1650

As for the institutions, I said earlier that the government now had a better structure to collect taxes where it can. People have to earn a certain income before you can tax them. That is the second point: you have to increase the number of people who can pay taxes or anything else that would exist in a so-called official economy. Obviously, there has to be an official economy.

Mr. Paré: I would like to move on to another topic. Earlier on, we asked Mr. Axworthy a question on the disarmament of the former army. Mr. Axworthy correctly reminded us that it is not to the UN forces to disarm, but at the end of his answer, he added that the Haitian police would get military support to do so. I would like to know a little bit more about that, because in September, that seemed to be a major problem. The 6,000 police officers, who are young, poorly trained, under equipped, were very concerned about having to deal with former army soldiers who were still armed. Has there been any progress in this regard?

Mr. Boudria: Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence, I will ask Rear Admiral King to answer.

RAdm King: There are certainly disarmament problems in Haiti, but not serious ones. For instance, there isn't a cache of arms that members of the EX-FADH could use. There is no longer any army in Haiti. All the members of Haiti's army were fired by President Aristide.

Now, police officers just deal with normal problems, such as crime, traffic, etc. There will no doubt be a security problem because of the EX-FADH members but I think you can expect police officers to have to deal with that kind of thing.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Ms Debien.

Ms Debien: Good afternoon, Mr. Minister. You will see how well members of the Bloc Québécois get along for questions, because mine follow in the same vein as those of Mr. Paré. They are on the structural adjustment program. Ms Labelle, you know how reluctant we are. When we hear about structural adjustment programs, we think about Africa and their disastrous consequences. Obviously, in this case, in Haiti, you cannot take away something they do not have.

You talked about sending wheat flour to Haiti, which would then be sold on site and the cash used for other purposes. That is an economic reform measure, an example of possible structural adjustment. Can you give me other examples of measures taken, through various CIDA programs or through agreement reached with the World Bank and the Monetary Fund? After all, a structural adjustment program, in the case of Haiti, must improve the every day lives of Haitians and not penalize them, as was the case with some structural adjustment programs in Africa, for instance.

Mr. Boudria: With your permission, I will ask Mr. Beaudoin to answer. Perhaps this is a good time to give you a short list of how Canadian funds are spent. The Haitian program is CIDA's largest. Bangladesh used to be the country where CIDA invested the most, but now it is second, after Haiti.

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We provide approximately $50 million every year in financial support, and the breakdown for this year is approximately as follows: $17.5 million for our bilateral program, $15 million in food assistance, mainly wheat flour, $12 million for police and $5 million for other CIDA programs, partnerships, industrial co-operation, humanitarian assistance, etc.

As for more specific questions, I will let Mr. Beaudoin answer that.

Mr. Denis Beaudoin (Chief of Operations, West Indies Division, Americas Branch, Canadian International Development Agency): Certainly.

With regard to the structural adjustment in Haiti, various measures were taken to force the government to better manage its funds. For instance, the National Assembly recently passed legislation to modernize businesses, which means a quasi-privatization or better management of businesses. Haiti's National Assembly also passed legislation for public service reform, to make it more efficient and so that people would have a place to work.

CIDA is currently involved with four other departments, four branches, on the structural adjustment project, which in our case, means better departmental management. I would first like to talk about the Justice Department, where we carried an institutional analysis for the Justice Minister. We asked the Minister what improvements he wanted to make to his Department, and in co-operation with Canada's Justice Department, we prepared a report a few months ago which described what could be done to reorganize his Department to make it more effective. We plan to do the same thing for Haiti's National Police. Discussions are underway to establish a functional organizational chart so that the Minister can management the police force more cost effectively.

As for the Department of the Environment, the Environment Minister, Mr. Wainright, asked Canada for ideas on how to set up his Department to have some decentralization and improved efficiency.

Finally, we have just accepted to do the same thing with the Department of the Status of Women and Women's Rights, so that that Department, in Haiti, is more effective.

CIDA is not very involved in major macroeconomic issues. Thus far, we have selected departments that we felt were important to Haiti, and at Haiti's request, we have tried to improve their performance. Of course, we are working with the Americans and the French on this, whereas the European Union is working with other departments.

Ms Debien: Thank you.

Mr. Boudria: Ms Labelle could add to that, if you don't mind, Mr. Chairman.

Ms Labelle: I will do so very quickly.

In Haiti, we wanted to make sure that if a few major fund raisers were present during the negotiations between the World Bank and the Haitian Government to make sure there was no social erosion or any erosion of basic human needs and to make sure that the changes would occur in a gradual manner so that the country does not suffer an even greater blow.

[English]

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Mr. Morrison.

Mr. Morrison: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have two very brief questions and a comment.

I'm wondering about these demobilized Haitian soldiers. This is a scary prospect. Is anything being done specifically to provide employment, to give them something to keep them out of mischief? This is a terribly destabilizing and dangerous situation.

Mr. Boudria: Perhaps you could comment on this initially, Admiral.

I could go through the details of our aid program...other than adding to what I said a while ago that at least 20,000 who didn't have jobs now do. I know it's not much.

Mr. Morrison: I'm only interested specifically in the potentially dangerous people.

Mr. Boudria: In regard to the former soldiers, perhaps the admiral could say something. Monsieur Cousineau has something on that as well.

RAdm King: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Minister.

.1700

The threat posed by ex-members of the military, as I said previously, poses the same sort of normal criminal activity threat as anything else does. It's not a question of everyone who is previously in the military is out to overthrow the government.

Mr. Morrison: That wasn't my....

RAdm King: I realize that. There's no doubt there is that threat posed by some members. We do maintain intelligence operations that are posed against those persons. But the sense overall is that the greatest threat that's faced by the Haitian national police is that of the normal level of criminal activity, everything from, as I said, theft to traffic accidents to drug trafficking. They need to gain more experience in combating that kind of thing on a day-to-day basis.

Mr. Morrison: In your opinion, then, these demobilized soldiers do not present a greater criminal threat than the general population.

RAdm King: From what we understand, for the most part demobilized soldiers have the same problem as most Haitians - that is, unemployment. In other words, they just need a job.

Mr. Morrison: That was why I asked the question on whether or not there was any specific or directed effort being made to try to keep these people....

Mr. Philippe Cousineau (Desk Officer, Haiti and Dominican Republic, Caribbean and Central American Relations Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade): Perhaps I could answer your question, Mr. Morrison.

That problem was recognized from the start of the UN intervention. A program was put together with a non-governmental organization called the International Office for Migrations. It was specifically directed at providing training for former demobilized members of the Haitian military to work basically as electricians, mechanics and so on.

A very large number of former military have undertaken this training. There is the basic problem that there's very little employment available in Haiti, so not a large percentage have found employment. But there certainly is a program directed specifically at them.

Mr. Morrison: My second question concerns a minor point I picked up on in the minister's address on the matter of selling wheat flour in the public markets. I've often seen food aid being sold in public markets, but this is the first time I have heard of it being put there as a matter of choice. How exactly is this going to work?

Mr. Boudria: It's not unique to Haiti. We do it elsewhere. The first time I saw it personally was when I visited one of our projects in Mali. Interestingly enough, it was administered byMr. Beaudoin, so perhaps he would be the best person to describe how the process works overall.

Mr. Beaudoin: Mr. Morisson, for years CIDA has been using food aid from Canada that they would have to import anyway, such as flour in Haiti. Haiti imports 100,000 tonnes of wheat flour a year, because they don't produce any wheat. So this year we're thinking of bringing about 30,000 tonnes of wheat flour, which will go to an organization called PL480.

It's a local organization that puts this in auction sales. It's put in all the newspapers, and the bakeries and any interested people come and buy this flour. It is written on the bag ``Canada, CIDA, Flour for Sale'' so that there's no mistake of food aid being transported and being used for it. With the money, we do development projects. We do them now with CARE and CECI, or we use the money to help the government if it has a balanced budget.

Mr. Morrison: Is the selling cost to the Haitian dealers, then, heavily subsidized compared with world prices?

Mr. Beaudoin: No, sir. The Canadian flour will be sold for the first time in mid-January. We expect to have 85% of what it costs in Canada delivered there, counting the ships. Why is it 85%? It's technical. It's because our flour is quite different from the American flour. Now they are buying it from the Americans, because there is a difference between the two flours. It seems that ours is a better quality. We don't have low-quality flour.

It's going to be sold on the open market. We expect that every time CIDA puts a dollar, 85¢ will go in gourdes for local development projects.

Mr. Morrison: If it wasn't sold at some sort of a discount, it would hardly be called aid.

My last question is a terribly unfair question that I want to ask Madame Labelle, because it relates to an historical thing.

.1705

The last time I was in Haiti, there was a CIDA project in full cry on the south peninsula. This was in about 1981. The people who were -

Ms Labelle: I wasn't born then.

Mr. Morrison: I know you were just a little girl. I thought you might have heard about this, because it gained considerable fame at the time.

The CIDA people were all lying around the swimming pools in Port-au-Prince and the counterpart agencies were stealing everything in sight.

I wondered if this model community ever did get built. Does anybody know? Do you remember?

Mr. Free: I was born at that time. There was in the 1970s and the early 1980s an effort to do an integrated rural development program in Haiti. It was trying to do a great number of things - community level development, upgrading of roads, building health clinics, improving education - all in one area.

It's true that at a point in time CIDA went down and we cancelled that project, because there were clearly problems in being able to account for the funds and how those moneys were spent.

We could dig back into the files, but this is not a model we use for our current activities.

Mr. Morrison: That was going to be my next question.

Mr. Free: We do try to learn from our history.

Mr. Morrison: Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Mr. Assadourian.

Mr. Assadourian: Welcome to the committee, Mr. Minister.

I have questions relating to this document that was passed out earlier by the minister. It says GDP growth was negative 10.6 in 1994. Is that the same now?

Mr. Cousineau: No, that was during the embargo. Growth has now picked up. We don't have exact figures for 1995, but there was slow growth in 1995, and it's going a bit better now in 1996.

Mr. Assadourian: Are we plus or minus overall?

Mr. Cousineau: We're in the plus now.

Mr. Assadourian: They import from us $29 million in goods. Do they pay for it, or is that part of CIDA project money?

Mr. Cousineau: Those are normal commercial imports.

Mr. Assadourian: On this document that you passed out, in 1994-95 it says $38.86 million...and here the bilateral says $42.2 million. Which one is correct?

Mr. Duval: What's the other document?

Mr. Assadourian: The Canadian bilateral assistance document.

Mr. Cousineau: It's not the same.

Mr. Assadourian: It's the same ten years - 1994-95.

Mr. Boudria: If I may, the only thing I can give you is the aid from Haiti. This is in the current year, and I could go through the numbers.

The bilateral aid projects are in the order of $17 million from CIDA. The totality of what my department spends in Haiti is $50 million.

Mr. Assadourian: It doesn't show here. I made a note here of $50 million. You said it was$38 million.

Mr. Boudria: That's for 1994-95 and I'm giving you the 1996-97 figure. My guess at this point would be that $42 million is probably the Canadian overall assistance. I'm just guessing here, and the word ``bilateral'' probably shouldn't be there. It would have gone up then from $42 million to $50 million. It would sound more logical that the bilateral couldn't have been at $42 million. It means we would have reduced it by two-thirds, and we obviously didn't do that. So remove the word ``bilateral'' from the document you have.

Mr. Assadourian: Okay.

Correct me if I am wrong historically, but didn't this country have a president called Papa Doc? Papa Doc, Mama Doc, Baby Doc - whoever.

.1710

At the time, I remember newscasts showed American aircraft coming to pick up both him and his family. She had 26 fur coats in a country that doesn't go to minus 30 degrees Celsius in either summer or winter. He left and went to Paris, France.

Is he still connected with the country? Is there any chance in hell this guy will come back, or is he totally finished? That's my first question.

Second, do we do an evaluation of a CIDA project after the completion of a project?

Mr. Boudria: Oh, yes, CIDA projects are definitely evaluated. As a matter of fact, the Auditor General will be speaking about this very shortly. I can't reveal the contents of his report, but I think you'll see that it's done rather well, if I do say so myself. There's also an internal evaluation process at CIDA itself.

Now, in terms of the speculation of whether Baby Doc will ever come back, he did leave 10 or 11 years ago. I hope not. Perhaps Mr. Cousineau can give us some insight, if he knows his whereabouts. I think he was last in southern France.

Mr. Cousineau: You want to know the whereabouts of Baby Doc.

Mr. Assadourian: Yes. I want to know where the money is.

Mr. Cousineau: He left in February 1986. He had a costly divorce. Apparently he's in very bad financial straits somewhere in France. He is thoroughly discredited in Haiti. Even the former military doesn't support him any more. He's not a political factor.

Mr. Assadourian: Thank you.

[Translation]

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): We are pleased to see Mr. Regan again today.

Mr. Regan (Halifax-West): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am also pleased to be here today to participate in this interesting discussion.

Mr. Minister, I had the pleasure of visiting Haiti twice: once as an elections' observer last June, and again as a member of a group from the French-language Parliamentarians Association.Ms Debien was also in Hinche, in Haiti, as an elections' observer. In fact, we had a very interesting trip from Port-au-Prince to Hinche, which is in the central region.

[English]

Minister, I want to ask you about what policy changes the Government of Haiti has made in terms of economic and social policy changes, and to what degree these have been as a result of the wishes of the World Bank in terms of structural adjustment. I guess what I'm really interested in is to what degree would they fit with the goals stated in the white paper, following their view of foreign policy of Canada, in relation to sustainable human development?

Mr. Boudria: As I indicated very briefly in my remarks a while ago, we are applauding some of the things done by the Haitian government - for instance, their success at managing to straighten out such things as unpaid salaries and things of that nature. It's certainly a marked improvement over what things were like before. Their cooperation and their assistance so that we can do the things we are doing, whether it's training of police or our other endeavours there.... Needless to say, if you don't have any level of cooperation from the government involved you really can't do much in the way of development work. It just doesn't function at all, or barely does, if you don't have some sort of cooperative effort from the government in any country where aid is being offered, particularly when the aid has to do with reforming some of the structures of government itself.

We have, as you know, assisted in such things as contributing towards improving the judiciary in Haiti, the police, mentioned a while ago, as well as some of the economic initiatives mentioned, and job creation.

Perhaps Madam Labelle would have a few more words to add to that.

.1715

Remember also the fact that Haiti has managed to replace an elected regime with another elected regime. That action in itself really says a lot. The fact that it was able to replace a democracy with a democracy is....

I know we take all of this for granted, as Canadians, but it's a remarkable accomplishment when you consider that the country lived for 200 years as a independent state without ever knowing democracy as we know it. For 200 years it was a totalitarian regime.

[Translation]

Ms Labelle: Mr. Chairman, Minister,

[English]

President Aristide, and then President Préval, following in his footsteps, have really focused on, first of all, having a justice system that works. They felt there would be no socio-economic development unless there was a justice system that worked and a democracy that was maintained. Hence, the elections were very important at that time. Our Parliament was part of that work. There have been exchanges between parliamentarians of Haiti and Canada, for example. Then they focused on the essential infrastructure, both social and economic.

In Port-au-Prince, even three years ago, there would be electricity for a few hours a day, but the rest of the time, none. How can you bring tourists, how can you have companies that work, how can you have industry, how can you keep food? So it's energy, basic education and basic health.

They have tried to focus on the conditions for development to happen in a fairly well-balanced way. This is probably one of the first times in history the donor community got its act together to coordinate things with the government. So when President Aristide arrived, we were there the next day and were able to deliver cooperation and assistance, which is quite unique.

Mr. Regan: Last November we met with the association of French-language parliamentarians, with Haitian parliamentarians, senators and members of Parliament. When we talked about how a parliament should function and so forth, or at least how ours functions, they mentioned their concern about the word ``opposition''. They were very reluctant to use the word ``opposition'' or to have an official opposition or anything of that sort, because in their culture and in their parlance it would suggest that they were Duvalierists, or were against the regime in some way. It gave a really negative connotation.

That was of great concern to our group of parliamentarians there. Obviously we stressed to them the importance of trying to achieve an opposition. It's very positive that there was a transfer from one democratic government to the next, but it was the same party, really. The challenge in the long term, obviously, will be to deal with this question of opposition.

I wonder if you've seen any progress in that regard or any indication of anything there.

Mr. Boudria: It's certainly one of the things I'd like to see over the next two days. I think you're quite right that there's a concept, particularly in a new democracy, whereby being against those who are in power could be somehow equated with being against democracy itself. In other words, the ones who are elected are in favour of democracy, so if you're not on the same side as they are, that means you're against democracy.

Something that is not obvious in a new democracy, particularly, is that people who are in opposition are in opposition to the policies but within the constitutional framework in which their country operates. We can make that distinction in this country, and most western nations and more developed democracies can. But I think that's an interesting point.

If I can put on my other hat for a minute, as minister responsible for Francophonie, we have had a number of meetings with Haitians. They are, as you know, part of

[Translation]

the Americas Region of the AIPLF.

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[English]

They are invited to our activities and they participate. I guess this is an educational system not only for the society in general, but for the parliamentarians too. They can come to this country when we visit over there. I think this is a benefit of Mr. Paré and me and others if they want to go over there. They see that people can be on the same government aircraft.... Someone who is against the minister is brought with him on the plane, and that's okay in a democracy. That doesn't mean you espouse everything the government does, even if you espouse the fact that you live in the same country and that those who will presumably replace that regime will be as democratic as the ones who were there before, were there to be a change in the future.

The other thing is that there has been a program administered by

[Translation]

the Agence de coopération culturelle et technique, the ACCT,

[English]

for the development and linkages of libraries of respective parliaments.

[Translation]

PARDOC is a program that seeks to link parliamentary libraries so that parliamentarians in one country can learn about how things work in other countries. It seems so basic and obvious to us, but that isn't necessarily true in a society that has never known this kind of thing, and I know that Haiti applied to the ACCT to obtain this kind of program. I can't tell you whether this has now been done and implemented. Perhaps Mr. Beaudoin could tell us.

Mr. Beaudoin: It's being installed now. The Canadian team chosen to implement this was in Haiti a month ago. Perhaps you could inquire during your visit, Minister. They are also talking about setting up the Internet. I think that had been approved at the Sommet de la francophonie.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Minister, you were supposed to be with us until 5 P.M. It is now 5:20 P.M. and I'm told that you must leave. However, I have three members who have already asked questions but who would like to be placed on the speakers list again.

Ms Debien.

Ms Debien: I would like to continue to discuss the whole issue of economic reforms.

We are aware that the political situation is not stable in Haiti right now. Even opposition was mentioned earlier.

We are aware that even in the majority, there is some opposition to the economic reforms undertaken by President Préval. It has been said that this opposition comes from President Aristide, among others, who is a destabilizing element in the political situation.

But regardless of the disputes that may exist between parliamentarians within a single party, I would like to know what the opinion or reaction of ordinary people is, if there is one, concerning the antagonistic situation within the majority regarding the problems of economic reforms. I would suggest that you inquire about this issue during your stay, Minister.

Mr. Boudria: Thank you for the suggestion. Mr. Duval will have something to add. First, we must remember that this is a country that largely lacks electricity, where unemployment is almost 99%, not counting all the other factors. Even where there is a newspaper, about 70% of the population is illiterate. Most often, there is no telephone. This is not a place where Gallup can hold a telephone survey 15 minutes after the news on CNN to take the pulse of the nation.

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Ms Debien: Political instinct is something that does exist, Mr. Boudria, and you know that full well.

Mr. Boudria: Yes, but you have to be cautious and I know that we will be. We have to avoid commenting on the actions of a political leader, particularly in relation to another one or that of another country.

I'll give you the floor, Mr. Duval.

Mr. Duval: I would simply like to add two points of information to complete what the Minister has just said.

In the past 19 months, the Lavalas political formation has changed a great deal. I wouldn't really say there's a split in the Lavalas movement, but there are certainly two Lavalas constellations that have formed: one very strongly and effectively supports President Préval, who's much more pragmatic and who has taken on the economic issues that you have just referred to in a very concrete way; the other is closer to President Aristide and represents a more populist and much more nationalistic part of the Lavalas movement. There has been no formal split between the two groups, but we do know that there is a very intense debate within the «Lavalas family».

Finally, in this confrontation surrounding economic issues, the more pragmatic political trend won the day. President Préval was very successful in convincing Haitians and there were no burning tire barricade set up on the road that he took.

Within Parliament, a very long, protracted and difficult debate took place between the two factions, but at the end of the day, legislation was adopted by Parliament and the Senate after months of absence and several visits.

I will say briefly that the written opinion can be found in highly politicized newspapers such as were common in the 19th century. You can open Le Nouvelliste and discover that Canadian troops are occupation troops, but that only represents a fraction of public opinion. In Haiti, things are run through rumours, that political instinct that you mentioned, but up until now, President Préval has been very successful in controlling the situation.

Ms Debien: Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Mr. Morrison, you have a question?

[English]

Mr. Morrison: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have a question, I have a meddlesome suggestion.

As most of you are probably aware, Haiti is one of the most deforested nations on earth. As a matter of fact, the boundary between the Dominican Republic and Haiti is clearly visible, because it's green on one side and brown on the other. Since this government has an uncontrollable urge to spend money building model forests, I would strongly suggest that CIDA consider, with the cooperation of Natural Resources Canada, of course, establishing a model forest in Haiti. I think this is the type of long-term aid that could really make a difference in the country.

Mr. Boudria: It's a very good suggestion. Apparently there is a joint project with Oxfam in that regard. But remember that the cause of the deforestation is abject poverty. When the only thing you can use to cook anything or do anything is a piece of wood, that's what happens. Even wood that normally should not be used and would be allowed to decay and decompose to enrich the earth to do something else - it just doesn't occur. Every twig is used because the people are at that subsistence level. That makes it more difficult.

I'm told by the people who have worked in the area that the land is now so barren that rain will cause the topsoil to erode into the ocean, contaminating the ocean and depleting fish stocks in the neighbourhood of beaches where people would have another access to food, were it not disappearing for the reason I just described. It's at that level. That is sad, but I do agree with the member that reforestation and things environmental have to be a priority. I'm not sure if I agree with the general comment about model forests, but nevertheless....

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Mr. Morrison: Actually, reforestation is possible under virtually any conditions. The Greeks have a great deal of experience in reforestation on barren rock where all of the topsoil has been washed away. They have successfully reforested under those conditions. The other thing of course is that if you were going to establish a model forest in Haiti, it would have to be guarded. It's as simple as that.

Mr. Boudria: I think you're right in saying that virtually any place can be reforested provided there are a few ingredients in the earth. People who have had the opportunity of visiting Israel, for instance, will know that if you go east from Jerusalem toward the Dead Sea, some of the most barren land on earth has now been reforested. I've seen it with my own eyes. There's a piece that is almost barren rock and right beside it is a forest that was planted there some years ago. They've managed, through irrigation and a number of other things, to start the forest. Once you achieve a critical mass of reforestation....

There's a large planted forest in the constituency I represent just east of Ottawa where in the 1930s and 1940s there were sand storms. You have to achieve a critical mass by planting in one area, leaving one fallow, and then doing the next one. That has the effect of stopping the erosion and then you can in-fill later, because you have achieved the mass necessary to stop the first erosion, which is what causes the greatest damage.

[Translation]

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Minister, we've kept you twice as long as we'd anticipated and I thank you very much for that.

I also want to wish you and the members who will be accompanying you a good and fruitful trip to Haiti. We hope to see you again before this committee.

Mr. Boudria: With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to add something.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): Please go ahead.

Mr. Boudria: If the committee wishes to hear a report on our trip after I return, I will make myself available to do so. I know that you have a busy schedule, but perhaps we could do it if this is the wish of the committee and its chairman.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): I appreciate your offer, Minister, and I will transmit it to the subcommittee on program and procedure for future business.

Ms Debien, do you have a comment?

Ms Debien: I appreciate and accept the Minister's suggestion. Given that we will have to meet again, probably to discuss the renewal of the peacekeeping charter or Canadian cooperation in Haiti, I think it would be an excellent thing to have a more update picture of the situation in that country.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bergeron): We already have one vote in favour, Mr. Minister. I wish you a very good day.

The meeting is adjourned.

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