---

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

---

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 24, 1996
(Meeting No. 1)

[Text]

The Sub-Committee on Bill C-25, The Regulations Act of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, met at 9:50 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 701, La Promenade, the Chair, Russell MacLellan, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Gordon Kirkby, Ghislain Lebel, Russell MacLellan, John Maloney and Susan Whelan.

Acting Member present: Bob Ringma for Ted White.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Daniel Dupras, Research Officer.

The Order of Reference of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs dated Thursday, September 19, 1996, being read as follows: Pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a) and (b) a Sub-Committee of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs to be composed of 6 Members including the Chair, 3 Members of the Liberal Party, 1 Member of the Bloc, 1 Member of the Reform Party, be established with all the powers of the Committee except the power to report to the House; and pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) the mandate of the said Sub-Committee shall be to examine Bill C-25, An Act respecting regulations and other documents, including the review, registration, publication and parliamentary scrutiny of regulations and other documents, and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts and to report to the Standing Committee.

The Order of Reference dated Monday, October 21, 1996, being read as follows: Pursuant to Standing Order 108(1),--That the Sub-Committee on the Draft Regulations on Bill C-25, The Regulations Act of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs be composed of the following Members: Russell MacLellan as Chair, Gordon Kirkby, Susan Whelan and John Maloney, for the Liberal Party, Ghislain Lebel for the Bloc Québécois and Ted White for the Reform Party.

On motion of John Maloney, it was agreed,--That the Sub-Committee print the number of copies of its Minutes of Proceedings as established by the Board of Internal Economy.

On motion of Susan Whelan, it was agreed,--That, during the questioning of witnesses, time be so allocated:

First round of questions--10 minutes for each party in this order: Official Opposition, Reform Party of Canada and Government Party.

Subsequent rounds--At the discretion of the Chair, 5 minutes for each questioner, alternately between government and opposition members.

On motion of Ghislain Lebel, it was agreed,--That the Clerk of the Sub-Committee be authorized to distribute, in their original language, the documents received from the public and that the Clerk of the Sub-Committee ensure that such documents are translated and the translation distributed as promptly as possible.

On motion of John Maloney, it was agreed,--That, at the discretion of the Chair, reasonable travelling expenses, as per the regulation established by the Board of Internal Economy, be paid to witnesses invited to appear before the Sub-Committee, and that for such payment of expenses, a limit of two (2) representatives per organization be established.

On motion of Ghislain Lebel, it was agreed,--That each Sub-Committee member be allowed to have one staff person present at in camera meetings unless there is a decision for a particular meeting to exclude all staff.

On a motion of Gordon Kirkby it was agreed,--That when the Chair of the Sub-Committee is unable to act in this capacity at or during a meeting of the Sub-Committee, (s)he shall designate a Member of the Sub-Committee to act as Chair at or during the said meeting.

At 10:15 o'clock a.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Bill Farrell

Clerk of the Sub-Committee

Paulette Nadeau

Co-Clerk of the Sub-Committee

---

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 29, 1996
(Meeting No. 2)

The Sub-Committee on Bill C-25, The Regulations Act of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 9:05 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 705, La Promenade, the Chair, Russell MacLellan, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Gordon Kirkby, Ghislain Lebel, Russell MacLellan and Ted White.

Acting Members present: Georgette Sheridan for Susan Whelan and Paul DeVillers for John Maloney.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Daniel Dupras, Research Officer.

From the Committees and Parliamentary Associations Directorate: Luc Fortin, Committee Clerk.

Witnesses: From the Department of Justice: Mary Dawson, Associate Deputy Minister; John Mark Keyes, Senior Counsel, Legislation Section; Ryan Rempel, Counsel, Administrative Law.

The Sub-Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-25, An Act respecting regulations and other documents, including the review, registration, publication and parliamentary scrutiny of regulations and other documents, and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts. (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, October 24, 1996, Issue No. 1)

Mary Dawson made an opening statement and, with the other witnesses, answered questions.

At 10:32 o'clock a.m., the Committee met on future business.

It was agreed,--That the next meeting of the Sub-Committee be scheduled for Thursday, October 31, 1996 will take place at 11:00 o'clock a.m.

It was agreed,--That Clause-by-Clause consideration of Bill C-25 will take place on Thursday, November 21, 1996.

At 10:41 o'clock a.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

---

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 31, 1996
(Meeting No. 3)

The Sub-Committee on Bill C-25, The Regulations Act of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 11:05 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 705, La Promenade, the Chair, Russell MacLellan, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Gordon Kirkby, Ghislain Lebel, Russell MacLellan and Ted White.

Acting Members present: Paul DeVillers for John Maloney and Brent St. Denis for Susan Whelan.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Daniel Dupras, Research Officer.

Witnesses: From the Canadian Labour Congress: Dave Bennett, National Director, Department of Health, Safety and Environment. From the Indian Taxation Advisory Board: Chief Clarence T. (Manny) Jules, Chairman; Robert Groves, Principal, Aboriginal Affairs Group Inc.

The Sub-Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-25, An Act respecting regulations and other documents, including the review, registration, publication and parliamentary scrutiny of regulations and other documents, and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts. (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, October 24, 1996, Issue No. 1)

Dave Bennett made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 11:44 o'clock a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 11:49 o'clock a.m., the sitting resumed.

Chief Clarence T. (Manny) Jules made an opening statement and, with the other witness, answered questions.

At 12:19 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee met on future business.

It was agreed,--That Clause-by-Clause consideration of Bill C-25 will take place on Tuesday, November 26, 1996.

At 12:25 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

---

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 6, 1996
(Meeting No. 4)

The Sub-Committee on Bill C-25, The Regulations Act of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 3:45 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 705, La Promenade, the Chair, Russell MacLellan, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Ghislain Lebel, Russell MacLellan and John Maloney.

Acting Member present: Ovid Jackson for Gordon Kirkby.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Daniel Dupras, Research Officer.

From the Committees and Parliamentary Associations Directorate: Luc Fortin, Clerk.

Witness: From the Canadian Environmental Law Association: Michelle Swenarchuk, Executive Director.

The Sub-Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-25, An Act respecting regulations and other documents, including the review, registration, publication and parliamentary scrutiny of regulations and other documents, and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts. (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, October 24, 1996, Issue No. 1)

Michelle Swenarchuk made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 4:35 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

---

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 1996
(Meeting No. 5)

The Sub-Committee on Bill C-25, The Regulations Act of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 9:10 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 701, La Promenade, the Chair, Russell MacLellan, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Gordon Kirkby, Ghislain Lebel, Russell MacLellan and John Maloney.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Daniel Dupras, Research Officer.

From the Committees and Parliamentary Associations Directorate: Bill Farrell, Committee Clerk.

Witnesses: From the ``Barreau du Québec'': Louis Masson, Lawyer; Marc Sauvé, Lawyer, Legislative Services. From the University of Ottawa: Ed Ratushny, Professor of Law, Faculty of Law; Jamie Bennedikson, Associate Professor, Faculty of Law. From the ``Université du Québec à Montréal'': Daniel Mockle, Associate Professor of Public Law, President, Administrative Law Section for the Canadian Association of Law Teachers.

The Sub-Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-25, An Act respecting regulations and other documents, including the review, registration, publication and parliamentary scrutiny of regulations and other documents, and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts. (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, October 24, 1996, Issue No. 1)

Louis Masson made an opening statement and, with the other witness, answered questions.

At 9:51 o'clock a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 9:58 o'clock a.m., the sitting resumed.

Ed Ratushny and Jamie Bennedikson made opening statements and answered questions.

At 10:30 o'clock a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 10:40 o'clock a.m., the sitting resumed.

Daniel Mockle made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 11:35 o'clock a.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to later this day.

---

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 1996
(Meeting No. 6)

The Sub-Committee on Bill C-25, The Regulations Act of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 3:32 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 705, La Promenade, the Chair, Russell MacLellan, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Gordon Kirkby, Ghislain Lebel, Russell MacLellan and John Maloney.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Daniel Dupras, Research Officer.

From the Committees and Parliamentary Associations Directorate: Bill Farrell, Committee Clerk.

Witnesses: As an individual: Dr. Philip Anisman, Barrister and Solicitor. As Members of Parliament: Derek Lee; Tom Wappell.

The Sub-Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-25, An Act respecting regulations and other documents, including the review, registration, publication and parliamentary scrutiny of regulations and other documents, and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts. (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, October 24, 1996, Issue No. 1)

Philip Anisman made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 4:20 o'clock p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 4:25 o'clock p.m., the sitting resumed.

Derek Lee and Tom Wappell each made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 5:45 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Paulette Nadeau

Committee Clerk

---

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 20, 1996
(Meeting No. 7)

The Sub-Committee on Bill C-25, The Regulations Act of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 5:50 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 705, La Promenade, the Acting Chair, John Maloney, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Gordon Kirkby, Ghislain Lebel and John Maloney.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Philip Rosen, Senior Analyst and Daniel Dupras, Research Officer.

Witness: From McGill University: Roderick A. Macdonald, Professor.

The Sub-Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-25, An Act respecting regulations and other documents, including the review, registration, publication and parliamentary scrutiny of regulations and other documents, and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts. (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, October 24, 1996, Issue No. 1)

Roderick Macdonald made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 6:25 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to Monday, November 25, 1996 at 3:30 o'clock p.m.

---

MONDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 1996
(Meeting No. 8)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.

The Sub-Committee on Bill C-25, The Regulations Act of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met in camera at 3:30 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 208, West Block, the Chair, Russell MacLellan, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Gordon Kirkby, Ghislain Lebel, Russell MacLellan, John Maloney and Ted White.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Daniel Dupras, Research Officer.

The Sub-Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-25, An Act respecting regulations and other documents, including the review, registration, publication and parliamentary scrutiny of regulations and other documents, and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts. (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Thursday, October 24, 1996, Issue No. 1)

The Committee proceeded to consider its future business.

At 3:35 o'clock p.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

---

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 26, 1996
(Meeting No. 9)

The Sub-Committee on Bill C-25, The Regulations Act of the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 9:10 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 269, West Block, the Chair, Russell MacLellan, presiding.

Members of the Sub-Committee present: Gordon Kirkby, Ghislain Lebel, Russell MacLellan, John Maloney, Susan Whelan and Ted White.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Daniel Dupras, Research Officer.

From the Committees and Parliamentary Associations Directorate: Paulette Nadeau, Legislative Clerk.

Witnesses: From the Department of Justice: Mary Dawson, Associate Depury Minister and Ryan Rempel, Counsel.

The Chair called for Clause-by-Clause.

Clause 1 was allowed to stand.

The witnesses answered questions.

The Chair called for Clause 2, after debate thereon, the question being on the question, Clause 2 carried.

Clause 3 carried.

New Clause 3.1

John Maloney moved,--That new Clause 3.1 be added immediately after line 19 on page 2.

``3.1 A regulatory authority may consult the Deputy Minister of Justice on any matter relating to the making of regulations, including the application of this Act.''

Ghislain Lebel moved,--That the amendment be amended by striking out the work ``may'' and replacing it with the word ``must''.

After debate thereon, the question being put on the amendment to the amendment, it was negatived.

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

New Clause 3.1 carried.

Clause 4

Ted White moved,--That Clause 4 be amended by striking out lines 21 and 22 on page 2 and substituting the following therefor:

``any regulation made under an act that calls it a regulation or specifies an-''

After debate thereon, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived.

Clause 4 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

Clause 5 carried.

On Clause 6

John Maloney moved,--That Clause 6 be amended (a) by striking out line 17 on page 3 and substituting the following therefor:

``6. Each regulatory authority is respon-''

(b) by striking out lines 21 to 24 on page 3.

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended carried.

On Clause 7

John Maloney moved,--That Clause 7 be amended by striking out line 28 on page 3 and substitute the following therefor:

``responsibilities under section 6.''

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

Clause 7 as amended carried.

Clause 8 carried.

Clause 9 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

On Clause 11

John Maloney moved,--That Clause 11 be amended in the French version only, by striking out lines 25 to 27 on page 5 and substituting the following therefor:

``11. Nul ne peut être reconnu coupable d'une infraction à un règlement ou se voir infliger une peine par suite de sa contravention dans le cas où, à la date du fait reproché, le règlement n'avait pas été publié confor-''

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

Clause 11 as amended carried.

Clause 12 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

Clause 13 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

Clauses 14 and 15 carried severally.

Clause 16 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

Clause 17 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

On Clause 18

Susan Whelan moved,--That Clause 18 be amended in the French version only, by striking out lines 11 to 19 on page 8 and substituting the following therefor:

``18. Nul ne peut être reconnu coupable d'une infraction à une disposition d'un règlement dans laquelle un document est incorporé par renvoi, ou se voir infliger une peine par suite de la contravention d'une telle disposition, sauf s'il est prouvé que, au moment du fait reproché: a) soit le contrevenant avait facilement accès au document; b) soit des mesures raisonnables avaient été prises pour que les intéressés puissent y avoir accès; c) soit le document avait été publié dans la Gazette du Canada.''

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

Clause 18 as amended carried.

Clause 19 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

Clause 20 carried.

Clause 21 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

Clause 22 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

Clause 23 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

Clause 24 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ted White--(1)

Clauses 25 and 26 carried severally.

Clause 27 carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

Clauses 28 to 73 carried severally.

On Clause 74

John Maloney moved,--That Clause 74 be amended in the French version only, by striking out lines 1 to 4 on page 22 and substituting the following therefor:

``(3) Nul ne peut être reconnu coupable d'une infraction à un règlement administratif pris par le conseil de bande en vertu de la présente loi, ou se voir infliger une peine par suite de sa contravention, sauf s'il est prouvé qu'au mo-''

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

John Maloney moved,--That Clause 74 be amended by striking out lines 7 and 8 on page 22 and substituting the following therefor:

``stance of the by-law;

(b) the by-law or a summary of it had been published in a local or community newspaper of general circulation in the area where the by-law applies; or

(c) other reasonable steps had been taken to''

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

Clause 74 as amended carried.

Clauses 75 to 119 carried severally.

Clause 1 carried.

The Title carried.

The Bill, as amended, carried on the following division:

YEAS

Gordon Kirkby
Susan Whelan--(3) John Maloney

NAYS

Ghislain Lebel
Ted White--(2)

Ordered,--That the Bill, as amended, be reprinted as a working copy for the use of the House of Commons at the Report Stage.

Ordered,--That the Chair report Bill C-25 with amendments to the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

At 9:57 o'clock a.m., the Sub-Committee adjourned.

Bill Farrell

Clerk of the Sub-Committee

---