[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Wednesday, April 16, 1997
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[English]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham (Rosedale, Lib.)): Order.
We're pleased to have with us today the Canadian Association for Community Living, which has made a reputation for itself in actively pursuing the rights and problems of people living with disabilities. We're very pleased to hear they are now expanding into the international world. We're pleased to have with us Dr. Gordon Porter, who is the past president, Ms Diane Richler, who is the executive vice-president, and Dr. Roberto Leal, who comes from Concabad, Nicaragua.
Buenos das, Dr. Leal.
Dr. Porter will begin the presentation.
Dr. Gordon Porter (Past President, Canadian Association for Community Living):Mr. Chairman, honourable members, thank you for having us here today.
By way of launching our submission to you, I would like to say we're here today to propose that this subcommittee recommend to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade that the committee consider the issue of disability in a human rights framework as the next focus of study for the committee. Ms Richler will elaborate on that in just a few minutes.
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What I want to try to do is just give a very brief overview of who we are and why we come to make this proposal today. CACL, or the Canadian Association for Community Living, is a national federation with locals in over 420 communities and over 40,000 members. It has a long history of community organization and work in our country, and much as been accomplished in the last40 years by the people who belong to this association, which is made up of parents of children with disabilities and their friends and families. There's probably not a community in Canada where you wouldn't find either an official member of our association or an affiliate organization.
I come here today as a past president of CACL and also as president-elect of a federation in the Americas called CILPEDIM, which is an inter-American federation of national organizations that has been formed in the last six or seven years. Dr. Leal is the general coordinator or executive director of CILPEDIM, and he's also the president of a Central American federation of parent organizations called CONCABAD. So we represent our Canadian organization, but I think we also try to speak for some of our organizations within the hemisphere.
The interests of family members and organizations that represent the disabled are quite similar wherever you go, and Canadians have a long history of sharing our experiences with people in other countries. Our interests are citizenship for people with disabilities, participation in their society, and community living in the broadest perspective in terms of participating in schooling, in employment, in all the things that go with living in a democratic society.
We have a very proud history over the last 40 years here in Canada to share with our neighbours. During the last 10 years - and I know because I've been part of it - our national organization has moved to enhance our participation with people in other countries. We have been active in the world body called Inclusion International, we have worked with our friends in the Caribbean, and we've done work with representatives of the foundation for the disabled in China.
A few years ago a delegation from China that was interested in policy around education and special education toured Canada for three weeks with the partnership between government and citizens our association could give. One of the issues they were dealing with at that time, for example, was what to do about the lack of special schools or schooling of any kind for children in China. They were looking at having to build 5,000 new special schools within a five-year period, and we were able to share some of the alternative strategies we've come to be proud of here in Canada, and that is to use generic services rather than create special ones.
We also are currently involved with projects to share ideas with India. As a representative of my home community, Woodstock, New Brunswick, I can say that the local association and group in our community have a partnership with the association in Barbados of parents of people with disabilities. So a lot of things are happening in that kind of sharing.
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The things we've seen in working with other countries that are consistent are first of all there's a lack of services for people with disabilities, and in many of the countries we work with there are simply no services. There is overwhelming poverty for families and people who have disabilities. One of the common things is that having a child with a disability means both parents can't work. So if they're unable to work, the income of the family drops, and they're marginalized even more than they were at the beginning. Finally, human rights and citizenship are not the focus. Instead, people are simply trying to survive.
Groups like ours and Canadians have something to offer in this, and that is our experience of community development and community organizations having a self-help kind of attitude and being able to work with government in a constructive, proactive way without conflict, with citizens advocating for new and better policies in a positive way with their governments. This is something we really have a lot of experience with and are able to share with these countries.
Since 1991 our focus in the Canadian Association for Community Living has been on our hemispheric partners, and through the regional organization we operated the partnership for community living project for three years. This was funded by the Government of Canada. It permitted us to bring together representatives from 36 countries, including people from the community sector, parents, people with disabilities themselves, representatives of the government and professionals. In a series of seminars we were able to do bottom-up work to develop a vision and a sense of what's possible in communities, how advocating and working together with governments to strengthen civil society has the potential to make a difference in countries we've worked in.
We've seen the development of parent associations in Cuba. One of my really proud personal references for this activity is that I was present at the first national parent association meeting of Parents of Children with a Disability in both Cuba and Panama. This project of sharing, which Canada supported, has brought about the nourishment and invigoration of national parent movements in several countries, including those two.
Seminars on how to bring about inclusive education have been held in Mexico, Ecuador, Brazil, Uruguay, Chile, Cuba, Panama and Nicaragua. As Canadians, we have helped with our experience in community and government working together with a human rights perspective and with the goal of people with disabilities participating in their societies. We have really made a difference, in my view, in many of the countries we share this hemisphere with. This partnership needs to continue. Canada has much to offer, and our charter, as well as our history of the last 40 years, is really the evidence of that.
Diane Richler is going to elaborate on one of the follow-up projects of this partnership for community living project, as well as on the proposal we're presenting to you. Ms Richler.
Ms Diane Richler (Executive Vice-President, Canadian Association for Community Living): Thank you, and thank you all very much.
It was a real privilege for us as a Canadian association to be able to become very involved in activities in the hemisphere through the project that was funded through the Department of Health. I think what was very important was that it was enriching for us as well because it helped us to see our own work much more from an international perspective.
Certainly there was a lot of interest. The basis for the project initially was interest from other countries in the perspective of our association with regard to the inclusion of the equality rights provisions in the charter and the recognition in Canada of disability as a matter of human rights through its inclusion in the charter.
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One of the things we've learned through our work in Latin America and internationally is that while Canada prides itself on basing its foreign policy on a human rights perspective, the recognition our charter gives to disability does not permeate the human rights activities of the Canadian government abroad, both in its dealings with other countries on a bilateral basis as well as through its activities in multilateral organizations and institutions.
Through our work in the Americas we recognized that the social policies in any individual country are often not driven solely by pressures within that country but also by pressures from other international forces, such as foreign aid or international financial institutions, including countries like our own, which is influenced by the policies of the OECD and others.
We began to recognize that the perspective of our own government officials, as well as of those in other countries, was, if I can be so bold as to say it, being limited by the fact that there was not a recognition of disability as a human rights issue in some of those initiatives.
Dr. Porter made reference to the fact that one of the outgrowths of our initial work in Latin America was a contract, which we're just in the process of completing, with the Inter-American Development Bank. The purpose of that contract is to promote in Central America the labour market inclusion of people with disabilities. The project was requested by the heads of state of the seven countries of Central America after they became familiar with our work and saw the economic benefits of promoting the social and economic inclusion of people with a disability. The Inter-American Development Bank was convinced, and with the support of Canadian trust funds at the bank, the contract was awarded to our association.
I think what has been really interesting about the process is that through the research we've done looking at all of the funding by both the Inter-American Development Bank and other major donors in the region - including, I might mention, CIDA - there has been a recognition that there would be economic benefits; social benefits by individuals, families and communities; and political benefits, such as the strengthening of civil society, promoting social cohesion, democratization and even peace, from promoting the participation of people with a disability, one of the most marginalized groups of society. Also, there was a recognition that the current models are not economically sustainable and that the only economically sustainable models would be ones based on citizenship, such as the model described by member of Parliament Andy Scott and his federal task force on disability issues.
From the bank project and from the research we've conducted, it's very clear there's not enough money to do things the old way. Just looking at Central America, for example, the service coverage we identified ranged from 0.9% of people with disabilities receiving services to a maximum of 15%. There is no hope that enough investment in traditional segregated services would be found to provide supports to all those who are now not receiving anything. It was also clear that donors are not taking advantage of opportunities through existing loans and projects to promote the inclusion of people with a disability and that there was no plan for the region to take advantage of those opportunities. All of that work has helped us to see the potential role Canada could play by focusing on disability as a concrete way to promote human rights through its foreign policy.
We've been very gratified to find the openness of a number of organizations that may not have seen disability as being on their agenda but may recognize the need to pursue the needs of marginalized groups, to pursue democratization, the strengthening of civil society and economic development. In talking to organizations with any one of those priorities, we've been able to interest them in disability from a human rights perspective.
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We've also seen, unfortunately, that Canada sometimes takes inconsistent positions in some of its own international activities, such as in UNICEF or some of the other United Nations agencies, where there are activities and actions that may not always be promoting the kind of human rights perspective we think we have in Canada.
It was interesting to see this week's Economist promoting human rights as a suitable target for foreign policy. It seems there's a unique opportunity for Canada to continue its leadership role in the area of human rights, and even more so, to demonstrate by a focus on disability what human rights in action means on the ground.
We're very happy we have with us today one of the colleagues who has been working with us in Latin America, Dr. Roberto Leal. With your permission, I'm going to ask him to comment on the impact of some of Canada's activities in the hemisphere, and he's going to take advantage of translation.
Dr. Roberto Leal Ocampo (President, CONCABAD, SHIA, ASNIC) (Interpretation): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman and distinguished members, first of all, I'm honoured to be here and to be able to speak to you on this occasion.
On the first occasion we spoke about possible work in Latin America with our Canadian friends, we were a bit scared because of the scope of the work that kind of project demanded in our countries. We were afraid because in the history of our countries there has always been disrespect for this kind of thing, so we thought Canada would impose its ideas on our children. I would like to say that the work has been done within this framework of respect in which Canada places its work in the hemisphere.
Another thing that has been important for us is to see that the Canadian perspective of working on this issue in the framework of human rights has been very important and new. As you know, the history of Central and Latin America is that when we talk about human rights, we usually mean civil and political rights, but we have left aside cultural and social rights.
The other aspect Canada was trying to promote through its involvement has been the participation of the civil society and our children with disability in the society as a whole.
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One of the points Mr. Porter mentioned was community development. When we talk about community development, we are talking about members of society, and when we talk about members of society, we are including persons with a disability. That's why I would like to read to you part of the declaration of Managua. It says that society must also consider its members above all as persons and should assure their dignity, rights, self-determination, full access to social resources and the opportunity to contribute to community life.
One of the major problems in Latin America and of course worldwide is the economic one. Within the economic problem there is poverty, and we can see the spreading of poverty in our societies.
In Latin America we have more than 85 million people with disabilities, so if we consider that each family unit is composed of three people, we are talking about a population equal to that of the United States. Historically, these are the people who have been discriminated against.
I was talking the other day with the education minister in Nicaragua, and I mentioned the need to include people with a disability in our educational programs. I reminded him that in my country there are half a million people with a disability, and from that half a million only 3,405 people are attending a school. While I was talking to him about the educational need for people with a disability, he mentioned to me that the priority was for people to be included in the economic sector.
With the prestige Canada has gained internationally, it seems to me it's very important that the projects relating to people who have a disability be considered within the framework of human rights.
With the conflict we have had in Central America and also in the south part of the continent, there's always a lot of talk about securing a lasting peace. I don't think we can talk about a secure and long-lasting peace if we don't include these 85 million people in our programs, because the only way to achieve democracy is to give these people the human rights they deserve. On behalf of our children with disabilities, we would appreciate very much whatever Canada can do about this.
Thank you.
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[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham): Do you have any questions? Ms Debien.
Ms Maud Debien (Laval-Est, B.Q.): Good afternoon, Mr. Porter, Ms Richler and Dr. Leal.
Ms Richler, reference was made to a joint project of your organization and the Inter-American Development Bank relating to community living for the disabled. Is it all right to talk about handicaps? Is the term politically correct?
Ms Richler: Yes.
Ms Maud Debien: I'd like you to tell us about this project. What stage has it reached? What has been achieved through this kind of project?
Ms Richler: Last August we set up a project in co-operation with the Inter-American Development Bank, a project for the integration of the disabled in the labour market. The project applies to seven countries in Central America from Belize to Panama. The first aspect was to review all the grants from the Bank and international organizations to the region in order to determine where it would be possible to include elements aimed at promoting the participation of persons with disabilities.
For example, our review did not only deal with the labour market but also democratization, legal reform, education and social matters, and how to include persons with disabilities.
Secondly, we were asked to develop criteria for the Bank for the implementation of the project. Among other factors, the Bank must take into account the impacts its projects will have on the environment. It asked us to suggest criteria to ensure that the impact of a social project on persons with disabilities would also be taken into account to avoid undertaking action that might promote the exclusion rather than the inclusion of the disabled.
Thirdly, we developed a five-year action plan or work plan for the Bank in the Central American region. We've just sent a draft of our report. Once it is accepted by the Bank, we will hold a workshop to present the details. We're also working with the various countries involved to see about a possible follow-up after we have presented our recommendations.
Ms Maud Debien: If I understand correctly, this project was mainly a kind of research, a study to come up with an action plan for the Inter-American Development Bank. It is more in the nature of a study or research than a concrete action plan, isn't it?
You said that you presented a project to the Inter-American Development Bank. I imagine that it involves concrete recommendations to facilitate the participation of persons with disabilities. I'd be interested in finding out what they are. I'm very interested in concrete measures.
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Ms Richler: We learned a great deal about the operation of the Bank in the two years before we obtained this contract. Generally speaking, the Bank implements very concrete programs but sometimes it does initiate what it calls technical co-operation projects. This was one such project; it is normally what the Bank does when it doesn't know exactly how to go about taking action. In view of the fact that the situation of persons with disabilities is a completely new area for the Bank, the Bank decided to adopt this approach before undertaking a project. So what we are talking about is the beginning of some concrete action, in the fields of education and health, among others.
We identified the projects in the process of development in the seven countries. Thus, if a school reform project is initiated in Guatemala, we suggest that it provide guarantees for the inclusion of children with a disability or a handicap.
We have now reached the second stage. I cannot give you any guarantees but we are very hopeful that there will be two particular results, that these countries will start taking into account the participation of persons with disabilities in their projects and that the Bank will suggest to these countries that they give more thought to the impact of their programs on persons with disabilities and the need to provide ways for their inclusion.
[English]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham): Mr. Godfrey.
Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.): I'll make an observation, and then I'll ask a question. My observation would be that I think your proposal that this subcommittee undertake a study of the issue of disability in a human rights framework internationally is a very intriguing one.
By way of clarification and also by way of making sure we don't lose sight of the suggestion, I would make this observation. Some would say we're not going to be in business here a whole lot longer before an election occurs. After that event some of us will be here and some of us won't, and there'll be a reshuffling of this committee. So the challenge for making sure we or our successors do not lose sight of this excellent idea is that we're going to have to hope our researcher, Mr. Schmitz, is the institutional memory of the subcommittee -
A voice: What about our clerk?
Mr. John Godfrey: - along with the clerk, and that between the two of them they will treasure this document so that when our successors, whoever they may be, say ``What will we do next'', you will be able to say ``Here's an idea, folks''. I just want to make sure that in the general excitement and mêlée we're heading into, we don't lose sight of this.
Mr. Gerry Schmitz (Committee Researcher): I'd just like to make the point that a committee briefing book will be prepared for the next Parliament, and it will include significant developments from the previous Parliament. So that could be noted.
Mr. John Godfrey: Fine. I just want to make sure we don't lose sight of it in the general confusion.
My question is to Dr. Leal. I was lucky enough to meet with him on Monday in Toronto, along with Ms Richler. It's a sort of refinement of a question I tried to ask then, which is this: In the specific context of Latin America, are there certain cultural or societal reasons why people with disabilities have suffered the kind of discrimination you described? It would be true in our society as well that people with disabilities have suffered discrimination, so there may be a general truth that lies throughout. But are there any specific elements that explain the degree of neglect or disadvantage in Latin America that we should know about?
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Dr. Leal (Interpretation): I would say yes. I would say this is common in all countries of the world, but I'll be more concrete about some countries of Latin America, specifically the country I'm going to refer to. We were attending a seminar in Uruguay, and the president, Mr. Sanguinetti, said that the debt we have with people with a disability is so huge, we haven't even started to pay the interest on that debt. I think that is true, because in my country, for instance, families still hide their children who have disabilities.
We have an association for children with a disability, and we've started to promote the rights of people with a disability. When our work started to be recognized and people began to know about us, we received phone calls from people telling us that in some houses they heard screams or some kind of noise, and they thought that perhaps a person with a disability was being hidden there. They were asking us to go to that particular house and to talk to the members of the family to see if we could do something about it. In this situation we met a 38-year-old man who nobody had ever seen in the neighbourhood. He had been locked in his room for those 38 years.
Most of the mothers who have children with a disability are single parents, because as soon as the father knows their child was born with a disability, they leave the woman. We have cases where fathers, especially when they drink, are more violent towards the child with a disability than against the mother. In Guatemala there is a fast food restaurant where people with a disability are forbidden to go during the peak hours. Also, they cannot go to swimming pools because it's believed they contaminate the water. I could give you a lot of examples, not only in my country but also in other countries, where the rights of people with a disability are not respected.
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We have seen a problem also in hospitals when the mother knows the child has some disability and is not the same as a normal child. We think this is linked to economic factors, such as poverty.
In Nicaragua we have another problem. There is no free medicine for people with a disability, such as for those with convulsions. In Honduras, Paraguay and Bolivia it's the same situation.
We are talking here about a generalized situation, a lack of respect for the human race. I don't even want to say that human rights are not respected. It's the personal rights, the rights of the disabled, the basic rights of people that are involved.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham): Thank you.
Maybe I could just make a comment, and then we'll go to Mr. Harb. Just as a general observation I would say I'm very grateful to our guests for having drawn to our attention the rights dimension of what we're talking about. As you say, there is our own charter, but there's sort of an assumption when we go abroad that we are just pushing social and political rights or political and civil rights, rather than the full gamut of rights as we understand them in our country. Of course we have to be respectful of other countries' traditions, cultures and economic developments, so this becomes more and more delicate.
I was very interested to hear Dr. Leal say there had been a collaboration between the communities and not the attitude that we're here to tell you how to do it, which I think is always so complicated in this business. I'm very interested in that. I think that is why John suggested this could well be a very fruitful subject for consideration by a future committee. It raises a lot of very complex legal and social issues and the whole problem of global governance that we have to address. Before I ask a question, I just wanted to say that personally I'm very grateful for your bringing that to my attention. It's really not something I had ever focused on in that way before.
Dr. Porter, you wanted to make a comment.
Dr. Porter: I just want to elaborate on something that was stimulated by what Dr. Leal said.
I think that addressing the issue of human rights through disability has another component and an advantage that we've seen here in Canada. I'm not a parent myself. I'm a volunteer. I just got involved in my local community because I was invited to. The thing I found in working with the Canadian Association for Community Living for the last 20 years is that you're dealing with real issues that affect people in their communities. You're dealing with issues that have social policy implications in your community, your province and your country. But the other thing is that this cuts across the social dimensions of your community. Disability occurs in every type of family. It tends to diminish the political questions that sometimes get tied up with human rights issues because people of all the different political dimensions of the society are touched by disability.
The family that may be quite wealthy and have a political perspective that is quite different from the poor single mother still finds that the school they send their children to will not accept their child with a disability. They may have four children. Three of their children may go to the finest private school in the city, but that school will probably still refuse to serve that fourth child.
So by building these bridges across groups of people in the community, the disability movement, as part of the human rights effort, can bring all those people to the table so that they can work together in a way they would perhaps not ever be able to do on other kinds of issues.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham): That brings me to my questions. As to your own participation in the international community, are you part of the NGO delegations, for example, that participate in the UN Human Rights Commission in Geneva? Do you attend the briefings that the Department of External Affairs runs here in January or February, which often we're invited to, where human rights issues are discussed and ventilated among the human rights community in Canada? That would be one question.
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The second question would be, in reference to Dr. Porter's observations, are you now finding at CIDA a greater receptiveness to the financing of your types of activities outside the country? I'm sure Mrs. Debien would agree with me that in this committee we've actively encouraged CIDA to be involved more in education, women's issues, civil governance and democracy in our aid programs. It would seem to me that the way you framed this as a sort of civil governance issue makes it a very logical candidate for CIDA participation.
Those would be my two questions.
Ms Richler: Perhaps I could respond to both questions. To the first one, the answer is no. Unfortunately, even though Canada has been sensitive to consulting the international NGO sector on human rights issues, disability has not been considered to be a part of that. So we're not part of delegations, and it's only after the fact that we've found out about activities. For example, I happened to be at the world summit in Copenhagen because Mr. Axworthy, who was then Minister of Human Resources Development, agreed to present our proposal to the president of the Inter-American Development Bank, Mr. Iglesias, so he invited me to be part of that presentation. But our association was not part of the international NGO participation leading up to the forum in Copenhagen. It's the same across the board.
We're aware there has been sensitivity on the Canadian side, but part of our concern is that the broad definition of vulnerable groups as identified in the charter has tended to be narrowed in terms of the government's focus.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham): The department follows closely the work of the committee, and I know they'll be looking at the transcript. One of the advantages of your coming here may be that this will move this agenda somewhat.
Ms Richler: If I could respond to your second -
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham): Before you answer, Mr. Harb wanted to make an observation.
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): I'd like to make a brief comment. First, I think that within the context of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms we talk about prohibiting discrimination based on a number of criteria, but we also talk about the right of an individual to express himself or herself as well as to be able to move. So the right of movement and the right of expression are two very fundamental components of human rights within Canada. I think from that point of view you can make a very strong case to push forward the idea that disability is in fact a human rights issue that needs to be addressed not only here in Canada but also abroad.
The chairman has brought up a very interesting point, and that is that the international arena has been the place really to push this item under the Canadian umbrella. In the IPU, which is the Inter-Parliamentary Union, there are approximately 160 countries. They meet on an annual basis, and each year they discuss a priority item. Last year I attended the IPU meeting in Istanbul, Turkey. They discussed land mines as one issue, and also human rights was another issue they discussed. Those two issues were identified.
I think your presentation today really has enlightened me quite a bit. I'm quite familiar with this issue of the abuse of people with disabilities in the third world countries, and in some cases in second and first world countries I've been to, whether we talk about countries in Africa, Europe, or the Asia-Pacific.
I think it would be wise to approach the Canadian division of the IPU to find out how you can possibly convince our delegation to put this issue as a priority item on the agenda of the IPU. Many of the important issues that were adopted by governments around the world came about through the IPU. I would say one of them was the land mine issue that came through the IPU.
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The Acting Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham): That's helpful. What about CIDA?
Ms Richler: We made reference in our written brief to the fact that we think that what we're proposing is consistent with CIDA's objectives, particularly with reference to focus on human rights and democratization.
With respect, our experience is that the policies of CIDA are consistent, but what happens on the ground is not always consistent, mostly because there has not been any way for people working on the ground to become sensitized to this issue. When we did our research as part of the bank project, CIDA was one of the organizations we looked at. So we did a detailed review of all CIDA funding in Central America. We found one project related to promoting human rights of people with disabilities, and that's one of our own associations, which was $100,000 last year. Of all of the investment that CIDA has in Central America, that was it. So we certainly would be hopeful.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham): Did you want to comment on Mr. Harb's observations?
Ms Richler: Well I think that's a wonderful suggestion. I think it would help us tremendously in being able to go to the Inter-Parliamentary Union if Canada and the government had a clear policy recognizing disability as one of its human rights priorities internationally. I guess that's what we're asking this committee to consider. We'd certainly like to follow up on it, but this committee would certainly help us by flagging the issue as one the government recognizes as both important and worthy of pursuit.
Mr. Mac Harb: Doing one does not mean you don't do the other one. I'm suggesting that you have to use a two-track approach, and also the third track you are working on, the Canadian NGO sector. I know you have your network very well laid out. Some of the people you have on your board have a lot of ability in the field, and I'm sure they would be able to open quite a few doors for you within the NGO community also. But certainly I think this would be a tremendous item for the next Parliament, if not this Parliament.
The Chairman (Mr. John Godfrey): Might I ask, Mr. Harb, are you involved actively in the Inter-Parliamentary Union?
Mr. Mac Harb: I was. Senator Bosa is the president of the IPU division here in Canada. I think we'd be wise to give him a call and pay him a visit and ask him, because he has lots of experience in the area. He was also either the president or the vice-president of the international IPU, of all parliamentarians.
I am sure you will find friends in other parliaments. By the way, this has nothing to do with government; it has to do with parliaments. So members from all parties normally are invited to go to those meetings. It works in a non-partisan fashion in a way. Frankly, as far as I am concerned, if I'm ready to push an agenda on the international scene, I will push it through the parliamentary venue first and then get the attention of the international community through that venue.
The Chairman: So you will note the name of Senator Bosa, who can be found both in Ottawa and Toronto.
Mr. Harb, are you done?
Mr. Mac Harb: I was enlightened actually by the presentation. I missed part of it because I had to run to another committee meeting, but I was reading what was in the brief. I wanted to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for giving me the opportunity to listen to this wonderful group. I'm not a member of the committee, but I'm quite interested in the activities and the work.
The Chairman: We go out of our way to make it interesting for visitors.
I think that concludes the formal part of the meeting. I want to thank all of you for appearing. It was very good to see you. I think it was extremely helpful bringing forward such a concrete suggestion, which will possibly guide the future work of the committee. We can't bind them to anything, but we can certainly lay a big trip on them.
With those unparliamentary words, I will bring the session to an end.