[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Wednesday, April 9, 1997
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[English]
The Chairman (Mr. John English (Kitchener, Lib.)): I'll call the meeting to order.
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I would like you to begin with the presentation. I'd like to introduce you first, of course.Dr. Gerald Filson, from the Baha'i Community of Canada, is the director of external affairs.Mr. Enayat Rawhani is a member of the national executive.
Some of us have had meetings with the Baha'i Community of Canada in our constituencies.Mr. Godfrey may be coming; I know he's certainly had a meeting. So to some extent, we are familiar with the issues, but I know that you are much more familiar with them yourselves, and we welcome your presentation today.
Dr. Gerald Filson (Director of External Affairs, Baha'i Community of Canada): Very good. Thank you, Dr. English.
We're sorry that Mr. Newkirk, the secretary general of the Baha'i Community of Canada, fell ill yesterday. He was to have come, but we're here.
We want to thank you, because we know that several of your members have met with us locally and are certainly aware of the broad outlines of the situation. But we thought we could this afternoon, in an hour and a half, which has now shrunk to 45 minutes, deal with the issues in some greater depth.
As you know, for 17 to 19 years, roughly the time since the revolution, the largest religious minority in Iran has suffered persecution and has been denied their human rights. This is a community of more than 300,000 people.
We're very pleased with the support given by the minister and his officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs in this case, both in their bilateral communications with Iranian officials as well as at the UN Human Rights Commission in Geneva and New York.
The 25,000 members of the Canadian Baha'i community are grateful. There's some assurance in our local communities because of the meetings we've had over the last two or three months with the members of Parliament from all parties and in all provinces and territories of the country.
This afternoon I want to briefly recall the Canadian government's actions over the past 18 years. Then Mr. Rawhani will give a summary of the current situation. We will list the actions - we're not so much asking this of the Canadian government, because the Department of Foreign Affairs is already doing this - that we think are essential. We have also one additional request of the members of Parliament. Then we'll show a video made by our American counterparts. This gives some tangible exposure to this. It shows a little bit of what your counterparts are doing in the Congress in Washington.
The Canadian Baha'i community has been around for a hundred years: the first Baha'i was here in 1898. We've had a national spiritual assembly, or a national executive, since 1948.
Really, the principal contact with the Government of Canada was in 1949, when an unusual step was taken: the House of Commons itself passed an act that incorporated the national spiritual assembly of the Baha'is of Canada. Since that date, for many years there was relatively little contact with the government, other than getting our marriages legalized in the provinces across Canada and having our local assemblies and local executives incorporated.
With the revolution in 1979, we came into very direct contact again with the federal government. I think many of the federal deputies maybe don't remember that Canada had the first government in the world, in July 1980, to pass a resolution deploring the persecution of religious minorities following the revolution in Iran. This called attention to the tragic situation of the Baha'is.
It was a remarkable thing that the Canadian government - in the midst of all of the different things that were going on in Iran at that time - took this step. Instead of looking away, it took up the case of a relatively small and unknown religious minority in that country, took it to the House of Commons, and passed this resolution. That was followed by resolutions in Australia, the United States, and Europe.
Then in April 1981, a second resolution was passed by the House of Commons, calling attention to the destruction of what we call the shrine of the Bab in Shiraz.
The Baha'is of Canada and throughout the world will forever be grateful for those actions by the Parliament of Canada because it did lead to other actions by other governments and to international attention being given to this issue.
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Another step in which the Canadian government was quite outstanding was the fact that its Department of Immigration was the first to take up the case of the Baha'i refugees. This was early on in 1982 and 1983.
More then 2,000 Iranian Baha'is eventually came to settle in Canada. They went across the country to every province. You'll find Iranian Baha'is in the territories as well. Mr. Rawhani lived in the Yukon for a time. It was a very interesting refugee program.
But beyond being the first government to have accepted Baha'i refugees, Canadian officials spoke to their counterparts in Australia, the United States, and the Nordic countries. They opened the doors to Iranian refugees throughout the world.
So in the end, by 1985, 1986, and 1987, when conditions were beginning to stabilize somewhat in Iran - the eyes of the world were on Iran so the executions of the Baha'is were lessening - there were well over 12,000 Iranian Baha'i refugees settled. That's thanks to the Canadian government being the first to bring attention to that issue.
I wanted to recall those actions and also mention the fact that in recent years, the persecutions have continued while the executions have lessened. Again, the 300,000 Baha'is in Iran have none of their fundamental rights. Canadian officials have continued to be diligent, both at the sessions of the UN Human Rights Commission in Geneva every year and during the UN General Assembly debates on Iran in the autumn.
I just thought it would be useful to call to mind that history going back to 1979, 1980, and 1981 to remind the present members of the House of Commons of that really singular action on behalf of the Baha'is.
I think I'll ask Mr. Rawhani now to speak a little bit about the current situation, if he could.
Mr. Enayat Rawhani (Member, National Executive, Baha'i Community of Canada): Thank you.
The situation of the Baha'i in Iran has not changed since the beginning of the revolution. It has taken various turns, but it has basically remained the same. The Baha'i community has suffered major repression since the beginning of the revolution in Iran.
It's a large community. We have at least 300,000. There are other estimates of the number being much larger than that. In recent months, the situation of the Baha'is has remained exactly the same as before, as I mentioned, and the official statements and policies of the Iranian government have remained unchanged.
They have a coordinated plan to deal with the Baha'i question altogether. It consists of major efforts to undermine the community economically, culturally, religiously, socially, and spiritually as far as they can.
Let me cite some examples. Since 1979, 201 Baha'is were killed. Some 15 have disappeared, and to this date we don't know what happened to them.
Since then, arrests have taken place in various parts of the country. Detainments vary from 48 hours to six months, and happen without any reason other than the fact that these people are Baha'i. At present, since 1993, we have had about 200 Baha'is detained for various periods of time. Some Baha'is have been there for many years. Some have been in and out, detained and redetained.
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There are a few Baha'is for whom death sentences have been passed. Even though the death sentence has been denied in communications with some of the western governments by the Government of Iran, we have proper legal and court documentation to show that these are purely based on the fact that these are Baha'is.
Let me look at some of the damages that have been caused. To look at a few deaths is not the only issue we are concerned with. This is what comes to the surface: that the undermining of the largest non-Muslim community in Iran is the key question.
For example, they have desecrated Baha'i holy sites. They have destroyed Baha'i cemeteries. They have even dug out skeletons of Baha'is who have been dead for years and years. They have confiscated many of the Baha'i sites, properties belonging to the community as a whole or individual members of the community. By killing some of the leaders within the Baha'i community they have tried to threaten the very existence of other members of the community who turn to them for their guidance.
We don't have a system whereby there is clergy in the faith. We have administrative agencies we elect annually, locally and nationally, and these annually elected individuals guide and coordinate the activities of the Baha'i communities in localities and throughout Iran. Twelve years ago the Government of Iran decided to abolish this system of Baha'i election. Therefore it has denied the right of coordination activities to this meek, downtrodden, and law-abiding community.
They have destroyed the most sacred place in Iran, already referred to, the house of Bab, the forerunner to Baha'i, Baha Ullah. It isn't regarded by the Baha'i community as a property that belongs to Iranians. It's a property sacred to Baha'is throughout the world.
About employment, more than 10,000 Baha'is were government employees, and they were dismissed summarily. The employers of many of the Baha'is who were employed elsewhere were also encouraged to dismiss them. The businesses of some of the Baha'is who themselves were business people were confiscated. Farms were confiscated or burned.
In addition, some individuals whose employment was terminated and pensions were stopped were required to go back and return any amount of pension they might have received. This was successfully carried out in some parts of the country.
Having taken authority away, legal authority or any kind of social recognition of the Baha'i administration within the country, they prevented Baha'is from getting married in their own way. Therefore Baha'i marriages were declared illegal. Persons being married according to Baha'i sacred laws were regarded as engaged in prostitution and the people performing those ceremonies were regarded as fostering prostitution. For divorce it was the same thing. It was not recognized at all.
So about the activities of the Baha'i community, you can see this hold on the Baha'i community from every side to undermine it and strangle it financially, religiously, and culturally; culturally more also because in Iran they have stopped all the Baha'is from having higher learning. They have stopped them from going to university.
This year they introduced another thing. They even introduced the stopping of Baha'is from having a grade 12 education, because that's the year when you qualify to go to a university or any other centre of higher learning.
If anyone should attack any Baha'is, rather than the government or the court itself deciding a certain person should be sentenced to death, we have known circumstances where the assailants get away very lightly, and in most cases without any punishment at all. This type of thing is very horrendous for the Baha'i community.
And the story goes on.
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So our worries at the present time go deeper than looking at a few people who are imprisoned and for whom there are death sentences pending, which could be carried out as we speak. The worry is for a community that is systematically being squeezed out of existence and being turned into non-persons.
In terms of Baha'is who die, what would you do? You would try to bury them. There's always a fiasco trying to get agreement from the local government and approval from higher authorities to allow these dead ones to be buried within a reasonable time. Sometimes this is disallowed until the backs of the Baha'i are against the wall and they have no idea what to do.
They are not allowed to bury in their own burial places. We have plenty of Baha'i burial homes and Baha'i burial places and cemeteries, but we are disallowed from burying our deceased. As a result, sometimes they allow the Baha'i to go and bury their dead in a wasteland, too far away, without any markers - no burial stones, no identifying note and no sign to indicate who this person is. All these pressures are constantly on the Baha'is.
The ability of the farmers to buy from normal farmers' cooperatives things such as seeds, pesticides and other agricultural things - and these are, in most cases, the only places you can go as a farmer to buy these things - is curtailed and restricted to the nth degree.
We want a total relaxation on these things. We cannot visualize that these Baha'is are aliens who have landed in Iran. They have been there for thousands of years, centuries and centuries before the birth of their faith, in that land that may be the cradle of their faith. These people cannot be evacuated so easily.
Individuals like me, who left the country 35 years ago for the purpose of studying in England and then subsequently emigrating to America, are not the norm. The norm is the ordinary person, farmers and businessmen who have been there forever. They would like to remain in their own country. They have no intention of leaving. These people should be able to live happily.
I'd like to echo what Dr. Filson said and express our wholehearted gratitude to the Canadian government for its untiring efforts in the promotion of the rights of everybody, including the Baha'i community.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. I notice the video is 12 minutes. We should probably see that now.
Dr. Filson: Very good.
This was done by our American counterparts, with certain American sensibilities, as you know. So take it as that.
[Video Presentation]
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The Chairman: I noted that following the video you wanted to briefly present a strategy of response for the Canadian government. Do you think you could do that in about five minutes? Otherwise, it would be difficult to have questions.
Dr. Filson: We stepped up our reports to the government this year because in addition to an impatience that this has gone on far too long, it's the fact that the resolutions at the Human Rights Commission have become stronger, asking for the full emancipation of the Baha'i community of Iran. Last year we were pleased to see two reports.
First, there was the report by Maurice Copithorne, special representative to Iran for the Human Rights Commission, calling attention to the Baha'i situation. As well, Professor Amor, the special rapporteur on religious intolerance, made a very comprehensive report. He said that the Iranian government does not have to change its constitution and it does not have to accept the Baha'i beliefs, but what it can do is a series of actions that will restore the rights of that community.
We've laid out for the Department of Foreign Affairs - and you have it in the booklet in front of you - a staged implementation leading to the emancipation of the Baha'i community of Iran. There is an awful lot of rhetoric that is in some parts fabrication and that simply does not tell the story on the ground about what's going on in Iran with the Baha'is. We're saying, look, we have these international reports, so let's put them in action. Let's ask the Government of Iran to begin dealing with them - not to accept Baha'i belief, not to put them in the constitution, but to emancipate that community.
We've asked the Canadian government to look at Professor Amor's report and consider that as the measuring stick Iran has to come up to. We're saying it, I think, to a receptive audience, because Canadian foreign policy is: let's make these international instruments and covenants work; let's use the Human Rights Commission to its best effect; let's use the reports of its representatives; and let's hold that up as the standard. So we're asking for that.
We're also asking - at perhaps a very poor time in the session of this House - that you consider a resolution. There is an election coming at the end of May in Iran, which makes us very nervous. Unfortunately, there may be an election here, which might -
The Chairman: Make me nervous.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Dr. Filson: That's right - and it might not allow you to act in a major way.
But the point has to be made with Iran very positively, very directly: Look, this community has to have its rights restored. That's really what we're asking.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, Dr. Filson. That was less than five minutes.
Are there any questions?
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien.
Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, B.Q.): Good afternoon, gentlemen, and welcome to our superteam.
You said earlier, and this is also in your brief, that the Canadian government had taken a number of actions to help the Baha'i Community. I do not quite understand what more you can ask from the Canadian government, except to request that Iran abide by all agreements on human rights.
I find it a bit difficult to see the link between the actions already taken by the Canadian government and the actions you ask the government to take from now on, considering the upcoming elections in Iran.
I may be naive, but I wonder if Iran has ever complied with the recommendations and the resolutions adopted by the UN or the Human Rights Commission, which is meeting in Geneva right now. In any events, I feel a bit nonplussed by your request.
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Mr. Filson: We simply ask the government to continue, to keep up the good work. It has been 18 years already, and there is some weariness, and the Iranian elections are looming. People are nervous. We are most grateful to the Canadian government, but please, don't give up. Better still, use the rapporteur's report to really express to Iran... We know that for the last two years, Iranian officials have maintained that things are better for the Baha'is, that there are no more executions. It is simply not true. The community has no rights, and that's what we are asking for. We don't ask the Canadian government for more than that. We ask only that it continues, nothing more.
Mrs. Maud Debien: You ask the Canadian government to continue condemning the treatment given the Baha'is. I understand.
[English]
The Chairman: Mr. Rawhani.
Mr. Rawhani: In short, we really want Canadians to be seen to mean business, unlike the Iranians, who think if they ignore you, you'll go away.
The Chairman: Mr. Godfrey, I know you have to leave, so perhaps you would like to ask a question.
Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.): It's really more of a political analyst's question.
If I understood you, both from previous meetings with your community and from this video, there are really two elements. There's the persecution of the community as a whole, which seems to be on a continuum. It seems to be more or less stable, in the sense that it hasn't relented. That's kind of institutional in nature. Then there's the persecution, imprisonment, and occasional execution of individuals. That seems to fluctuate. Is that a fair description of the pattern? So we're continuing the good work of making sure we don't lose sight of the community institutional aspect of this persecution, which is continual.
What drives the moveable agenda? Is it a function of internal politics in Iran that sometimes the government decides to go after the community or individuals in it more vigorously than others, and sometimes it backs off? Is it simply a function of international pressure, or are there domestic forces at work - competing interests? For example, President Rafsanjani is about to step down and be replaced. There is quite an interesting competition developing for the elections. Is it simply a function of internal politics that determines whether you're on the great hate list or not?
Dr. Filson: I think it's both. We believe the international attention has lessened the most visible incidents of execution. We think international attention does work. Iran, like any other country, is concerned about its international reputation, so we want that continued.
At the same time, the history of the Baha'i in Iran is that they are an easy scapegoat for domestic politics. So even if a more moderate group were to come into power, it may be that in trying to advance other more progressive liberal tendencies, it may say, in order to appease the fundamentalist side, ``Well, let's give it to the Baha'i. Get them in the neck and show that we're tough on the Baha'i, and therefore we're not all bad and we can be more moderate on these other issues.'' That makes us very nervous.
It may also be the case that the people who were executed in the early 1980s were the leaders. The national executive was taken in the night to a place unknown and executed. Then they disallowed the administration of the Baha'i community, so there were no visible leaders like that. The drop in executions may simply be because they don't know who's leading that community any more.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos): Thank you, Mr. Godfrey.
[Translation]
Mrs. Maud Debien: Throughout the world, religious persecution is often only masking another form of persecution. It the Baha'i community very affluent?
It boils down to what I was saying at the beginning. Often, a prosperous community owns lands and large businesses. Often, it is only a pretext to rob a community. It is persecuted supposedly for religious reasons. Whatever the case, I put the question to you. Does that come into play? In your opinion, is it the case?
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[English]
Mr. Rawhani: No, this isn't a fact at all. Although the members of the Baha'i community are bidden to be educated, to study and to understand realities through our own own eyes rather than others, a great majority of the Baha'i community are farmers and factory workers - all kinds of segments of this society. But we also have some well-to-do, upper middle class, highly educated individuals. The sort of scenario in Germany does not apply here.
[Translation]
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos): Mrs. Debien, are you through?
Mrs. Maud Debien: Yes, my question has been answered.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos): I would like to ask a question.
[English]
Iran is regarded by some, on the list Mr. Godfrey was referring to, as a problem country for a number of reasons, such as harbouring terrorists. What type of relationship would Canada have that would allow it to exert more pressure? I know what you say in your brief. I read it. But what other forum could we use besides the fact that we condemn human rights violations all over the world? We have a reputation for that. What other means do we have? Do we have trade relations? What other carrot or stick could we use?
Dr. Filson: It's really not for us to say. You're the experts in the various diplomatic tools that are available, and trade or whatever. We can't really comment on that. It's not our position to say.
We can't say much beyond the fact that we do believe very strongly in the moral importance of these international reports and these resolutions. These are not just resolutions. We've spent a lot of money and time in getting them before the Human Rights Commission and the General Assembly. They really need to be taken more seriously. We generally think the strengthening of the international apparatus of law and standards needs to be done. I think the Canadian government, in working in that area, is to our minds not only working on our issue. Our issue can become a means to expand the territory as Canada has always tried to do, and that is a much more stable international regime. Our case is a good one because it is fairly clear. The evidence is there and that's great for us, but it's also great for the Canadian government in its foreign policy.
I'm not sure about cultural exchanges, educational exchanges and all of that. Certainly the Iranian regime should not be allowed to get away with the kinds of statements it makes about improvements until it is actually seen that Baha'is can hold legal business documents, their properties aren't confiscated, and so on. That's what we're saying, and I think that has to be put to Iran in every exchange, whether it's McGill University in its exchange with the University of Teheran, or Canadian businessmen. I don't know how those sectors of Canadian society can be educated about this. We do our best. Perhaps the government has means it could use, but again it's your area of expertise, not ours.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos): Do you want to add anything, Mr. Rawhani?
Mr. Rawhani: Yes. When you hear that the Government of Iran is saying it is intent and determined to uproot the Baha'i community, not only in Iran but elsewhere in the world, it means it feels very welcome to do anything it wants to do in Canada. I don't think we can say what to do about that, but we can say this behaviour has to be checked very strongly and very firmly by governments of the world that do not agree with that sort of standard being interjected within their own systems.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos): Thank you very much.
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Dr. Filson: I'm a western Canadian who loves Iran, who knows far more about Iran and its history than I would ever have if I were not a Baha'i.
The Canadian Baha'is feel that for Iran to become more open to the world and really take its place in the community of nations, the Baha'i case is a very good one for it, because it can make a change there that really will open up and make more pluralistic that society. Why not start there? It's one that in many ways would not touch the essence of the core of the Islamic revolution and Islamic values, many of which overlap with our own, and in some of which there are differences, of course.
It seems to us that we need to find ears in Iran of people who can listen to that and understand that by emancipating that community they're going to do a tremendous amount of good for the country of Iran, a country that six million Baha'is around the world love dearly, and its culture and history.
That's it.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos): Thank you, Mr. Filson.
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien, do you have more questions to ask?
Mrs. Maud Debien: No.
[English]
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos): Thank you very much.
Dr. Filson: Thank you.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Eleni Bakopanos): The meeting is adjourned.