[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Wednesday, December 11, 1996
.1625 
[Translation]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): I would like to welcome our distinguished guest, Mohammed Fayek, Secretary General of the Arab Organization for Human Rights. Welcome.
I'm sorry if we are a bit late. As I understand, we have a good half hour to spend with you. Do you have something to tell us to direct committee members to your concerns, sir, in whatever language you like except in Arabic?
[English]
Mr. Mohammed Fayek (Secretary General, Arab Organization for Human Rights): Thank you very much for receiving me here. I don't know whether you know much about our organization, but I would like to tell you about it very briefly. Our organization extends all over the Arab countries. Our headquarters are in Cairo.
We have a consultative status to the United Nations. We are a non-government organization for promoting and defending human rights. We were able to establish the Arab Organization for Human Rights, which is based in Tunisia, as a joint venture between our organization, the Union of Arab Lawyers, and the Centre for Human Rights in Geneva. The institution got the first prize of UNESCO in 1992.
It actually has programs for training of activists. We've even had some symposiums for judges in the Arab world, for the deans of universities of law, and so on. So it is doing a very important job in the creation of training in the Arab world.
Of course, in our area there are too many problems. We have very special problems, some of which are faced by all of the third world. We have problems with conception, for example. We have a weak sector in our area that believes human rights is against religion. This is of course not true.
We don't accept this allegation, and we have certain programs to prove this. We are working on it now, because we feel we are fighting on different fronts. Human rights organizations are not welcomed by the governments yet, so we are fighting on this one front. The other is the different conceptions we are have.
Also, with respect to democracy, there are many abuses in our area, but we still believe that human rights is the right entrance to democratize this area. We have 13 Arab countries that have already signed agreements - the main instruments of human rights - so through this we can develop the question of democratization.
This is in brief what we are after and what our organization is about. If there is anything more, I'm ready to....
.1630
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): Thank you very much. I think what we'll do then is, through a Socratic dialogue, attempt to find out more about the organization through questions and discussion.
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien, do you have any questions about the organization?
Mrs. Debien (Laval - East): Good afternoon, Mr. Fayek, and welcome to the sub-committee.
You know that our hearings mostly concern exploitative child labour. The mandate of your organization is the defence of human rights. Could you tell us what the situation is in those countries you represent regarding exploitative child labour? Since our sub- committee is mandated to discuss this issue, I'd like to have your opinion on this matter.
[English]
Mr. Fayek: We actually have very much emphasis on this issue, but unfortunately I don't have statistics with me now because I was not prepared for this. If I knew before I left, I could have arranged it.
We have something that is most problematic in our country, and it is called children of the streets or children left to the street. They are just lying, breathing, in the streets, and it's a phenomenon coming out of poverty.
Child labour is not a very acute problem in our country, as it is in countries like India, but it is connected very closely to poverty. You will find it mainly in the rural areas and in those who are labour proficient, such as mechanics and so on. They send their children to be trained and to come out as mechanics, painters, or things like that. Those people are very badly treated, but they consider that this is a school for them to become proficient.
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien: When we talk about child labour, we understand that the work some children do can sometimes be considered as training and we accept that. This is not what we are after. What we are concerned about is exploitative or hazardous working conditions imposed upon children, such as when they have to carry heavy weights, when they are exposed to excessive heat or when they are prevented from going to school. This is the type of child labour we are talking about. We are also concerned with the sexual exploitation of children, the issue of children being forced to prostitute themselves. This is the kind of exploitative child labour that we are talking about, not the training for employment which can be found in some countries.
.1635
[English]
Mr. Fayek: Part of this is those who are serving in the houses; young children serving as servants in the houses. Maybe this is the biggest thing. We don't have sexual abuse. We don't have heavy labour for children. Maybe the biggest phenomenon is very young children who are working as servants. They are taken from their families and they work as....
Even so, it is not one of the very acute problems. I'm talking about Egypt mainly. Of course in the gulf countries there is no problem for the indigenous people with that issue. It is only in the poor areas such as Egypt. In Sudan also there is something like this. It's not a big problem, as it is in India or other countries.
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien: You just mentioned Sudan. We know there is a civil war which has been raging in Sudan for quite some time. In some African countries, in Liberia, for instance, children are used as soldiers. This is also a form of exploitative child labour. I think Sudan is an excellent example.
[English]
Mr. Fayek: In Sudan we have a problem because they take some young children and give them special training, Islamic training, preparing them for special missions, particularly in the south. We have this problem in Sudan. Apart from this I don't think the phenomenon is very prevalent.
We are carrying out some studies on this matter of children. When I go home I can send you some of these studies.
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien: Thank you.
[English]
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): Dr. Martin.
Mr. Martin (Esquimalt - Juan de Fuca): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you again, Dr. Fayek, for coming to visit us today.
Before you entered the room we were speaking about where we as a nation can put our best investment. Given the fact that we have, like most nations, a dwindling official development assistance pie, we're confronted with the realpolitik of where we should best invest our money. Since we're dealing with child labour, in your experience and in your view, where can we best put our investment to have the greatest bang for the buck? Is it a micro-credit type of investment, where we address the poor in small loans, or is it in larger programs? Is it in education? Is it in health care?
Mr. Fayek: Education is maybe one of the most important issues. Also, we want to support the civil society, because in most of the Arab countries, which have for a long time been using the one-party system and are now trying to...they are not used to the civil society. They consider non-governmental...as against the government. The civil society needs real support to carry on. Also training...if there is training in different aspects that can help the civil society and education.
Mr. Martin: Have you found micro-credit loans to be a useful form of official development assistance?
Mr. Fayek: Of course development is very important, because the more you develop -
Mr. Martin: Specifically the micro-credit, the micro-loans along the lines of the Grameen Bank. Is that a very useful and effective form, in your view, of how we should be spending our money?
Mr. Fayek: Do you speak of money as investment?
Mr. Martin: Like the Grameen Bank, with its small repayable loans that go to people.
.1640
Mr. Fayek: Yes, of course. It goes with the privatization, actually, and it can help in bringing us small, independent private enterprises.
Mr. Martin: Do I have time for another question?
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): Sure.
Mr. Martin: Thank you.
What's happening now in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is of deep concern to many of us here in Canada.
Mr. Fayek: Yes, I think the peace process is in great danger now, because the Palestinians who accepted the Gaza-Oslo agreement are very much disappointed because things are deteriorating. They didn't have any progress in that area. All this time has been spent to sell peace to those people and now they are coming to the conclusion that it isn't of help to them and that peace is becoming a problem.
So I am afraid...and it's not only in the Gaza Strip. This is reflected in other Arab areas, even in Egypt. Egypt started this peace process at Camp David. All that has been done is now in real danger because people are turning against this process with this new policy. This is partly because in the Gaza Strip people are suffering from the closure of borders and unemployment is having terrible effects on them. Economically, they're in difficulty. Even Yasser Arafat, I believe, will not be able to control the consequences that are coming after what's been happening for a long time. I think the area is ready to explode now.
Mr. Martin: What can we do? What can Canada do?
Mr. Fayek: I think if there is a real international opinion, if there is pressure...this is how you can help. This will put pressure on the government and on the government of the United States also. I think the United States has a special responsibility in this peace process.
They are not taking this smoothly at all now. They are biased. And even this change to the new administration, which came lately, is not promising at all for real change.
I think what the European group is doing is very much appreciated, especially what France and the European group are doing. I think this is a very good model.
Mr. Martin: Thank you very much.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): I'd like to know a little bit more about your organization. First of all, as you said in your introductory remarks, it's not one that is always appreciated in all Arab states, if I understand you correctly, so how are you financed and how big is the organization? Second, what is your list of priorities? What is the top thing you worry about and what is the one after that?
Mr. Fayek: First, with respect to our finances, we depend completely on the subscriptions of the members. We depend on subscriptions from the nations of the members and on the individual donations. Of course, by constitution, we don't accept financing from Arab governments at all because we are working in the area. Theoretically, we can have some assistance from the organizations that have the same...but up to now we have taken a decision not to take any assistance from the outside, because we would be accused of bringing in those foreign concepts from outside. We decided to make the costs completely Arab. So, until now, since we have been established, we don't -
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): How long have you been established?
Mr. Fayek: Since 1983. We don't accept any donations from outside at all, nor from any organizations - just the individuals - except the centre for human rights of the United Nations and UNESCO. Sometimes we have symposiums with them or do programs together, but assistance or anything like that at all...so that's one thing. With respect to your question about our priorities, because we cover the whole Arab area and we are concerned with the promotion and defence in all...our mandate is the instruments of the United Nations as a whole. So our legislatures are working on the concept, which is a real problem for us. We have a big problem with that.
.1645
We try to make our priorities in each country different from the others. For example, in the gulf countries, we concentrate on constitutional reforms and on human rights conventions.
I was invited to give a lecture on human rights in Qatar, for example, and this is something very new. I'm also going on December 24 to the United Arab Emirates for the same thing. We are asking them to sign the agreement, so this is a priority in the gulf.
In countries like Egypt, for example, we want to end the military courts and torturing. For a long time we have been asking for the emergency law, and so on.
In Saudi Arabia it's different. The question of human rights is not accepted at all. When women ask for their rights, they start by asking for the right to drive a car. It is really a big movement, so we differ from one country to the other.
Now we are working with the conception...which is most important because we are trying to prove that Islam is not against human rights. On the contrary, it is a bigger and wider circle that can accept the smaller one. That is what was agreed upon by all the nations; that's the instrument of the United Nations.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): I don't fully understand. You've used the word ``conception''.
Mr. Fayek: Concepts.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): Concepts; the whole idea of human rights.
Mr. Fayek: Yes, the whole idea of human rights.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): This is a general question that may be put badly, but is your task even more difficult in countries that have a strict form of shariah? Does that make it even more difficult for you to put forward those ideas?
Mr. Fayek: Of course, it is more difficult. I want to tell you something. Those countries that say they are Islamic are actually escaping everything by declaring that. They are the countries that violate human rights the most, and Islam is not like that.
The pivot of Islam depends on two things: justice and equality. They start by cutting off the hand of the thief and so on and leaving the pivot of Islam. We refuse to say this is Islam. We have another conception of this.
Most of the countries that are using shariah have one-party systems or they don't accept the multi-party system. There is no dialogue at all. Of course, there are difficulties with this, but we believe this is not the right implementation of Islam. This is why we say this is a very difficult problem we are having in this area.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): Do you do, in effect, record cards on various countries? Do you try to rank them at all?
Mr. Fayek: No, we don't exactly rank them, but we have annual reports on human rights. The reports cover all kinds of human rights concerns, starting from the legislation up to the abuses. We put them in and don't make categories, but if you read our report you will be able to very easily put them into categories.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): Do you indicate progress on a yearly basis?
Mr. Fayek: Of course, we do. Usually there is very little progress, but we start by reporting on progress, so we cannot be accused of being against it.
.1650
One of the problems when I'm talking about the concept is how the governments have taken our work. They always take us as being in opposition, although we are always trying to explain that we are not in opposition. Although we are against violations of human rights, we are for respect of human rights. We are not aligned with any government, nor are we against any government, even in Sudan, where there is a shariah.
I have been there myself and I met Al-Bashir and we had long discussions there. We tried all sorts of things, but in the end we have a lot of problems with this concept. They don't accept the idea of rights. This is the problem. Even with those who have signed the agreements, when it comes to a question of human rights and we ask to go to visit a prison, for example, they never allow us. But we send lawyers for the defendants and in that way put our efforts into these prisons.
We have a lot of difficulty.
We have had difficulties with Sudan and the application of shariah. For example, in shariah, I believe - and I am not the only one; even religious people believe this - the shariah did not specify any particular system for government at all. When we talk about shariah, it's only that the Koran refuses to have a dictatorship. That's all. They have to consult. To go further than that, of course, is much better.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): Two other questions. First of all, do you work with outside organizations, non-governmental ones?
Mr. Fayek: Of course.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): I'm thinking of Amnesty International.
Mr. Fayek: Yes, we have very close relations with Amnesty International.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): Any others?
Mr. Fayek: I personally have a relationship with Pierre Sané. We meet from time to time and we sometimes have arrangements together on some issues.
We work with Human Rights Watch. We do work very closely with all these organizations.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): A second question would be directed to our own government. Are there things we can do either multilaterally or bilaterally with these various countries? Are there ways we can work with you that wouldn't show you're being corrupted by our western values?
Mr. Fayek: Of course, we very much welcome any cooperation with Canadians - especially you, since you are not going to be accused of biasing human rights or using human rights for political reasons. You have never been accused of this. Some countries are very helpful on human rights, but they give us a lot of trouble because they are accused of a double standard or selectivity, the United States in particular. Their attitude to the Palestinians.... I was explaining to His Excellency that Israel is the first and only country in the world where they have allowed torture, and we don't hear many countries condemning such an act. This is very important.
Canadians can do a lot of things. We need to see your activities more in our countries. There are no restrictions, no reservations about your activities, especially on humanitarian issues. You are qualified to do this - not only qualified but needed and expected.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): We have our own International Centre for Human Rights, which is based in Montreal. Do you have any -
Mr. Fayek: I'm going to have a meeting with them tomorrow at 10 a.m.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): Excellent.
The privilege of this committee is learning things, and in a very useful time together we've learned an immense amount from you. I think I speak on behalf of all my colleagues in thanking you for coming and for the fight you are waging on behalf of human rights, which is a universal issue. We admire you and we are on your side. If we can be helpful in any way, please do not hesitate to get in touch with us. Thank you for coming before us.
.1655
Mr. Fayek: Thank you very much.
Finally, I would like to say that I think this organization, the Canadian Arab Organization for Human Rights, in Montreal, is doing a very good job and they can be a very good link between us. Thank you very much.
The Acting Chairman (Mr. Godfrey): Thank you.
This meeting is now adjourned.