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EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, November 20, 1996

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[English]

The Chairman: Good afternoon. I'd like to call this meeting to order.

This is a particularly important meeting of our Sub-Committee on Sustainable Human Development. We're looking at the question of child labour, and today we hear from people who are roughly of the same age as others who do child labour in exploitative ways in other parts of the world.

Before I begin, the researchers have told me that the cameras have to leave. This meeting is being televised on CPAC, so you will have an opportunity to see it later. If you people would like to wander about and photograph individuals in the room - I notice none of the members are being photographed - you can do that, though. Thank you very much.

Senator Pearson has reminded me that this is an important day in a broader sense in terms of the question of child labour. This is the anniversary date of the 1979 United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. This is also National Child Day. And in 1959, the Declaration of the Rights of the Child was issued. So it is most appropriate that we have this meeting this afternoon.

I have to apologize to everyone and to the members. It appears that we're going to have a vote in a few minutes. It will be a half-hour bell, so I think I will start with the introductions now, and I'll also start with some of the presentations. The bell hasn't rung yet, so we may have a chance to begin some presentations. Is that satisfactory, witnesses?

Our witnesses today are Laura Hannant, who is an Ottawa member of Free the Children;Kyle Connolly, also from Free the Children; Caitlin Smith and Jemima Day Cowan from Kids for Human Rights and Justice; and Émilie Bernier, from Jeunesse Canada Monde. Welcome. Bienvenue.

I would begin with Laura Hannant and Kyle Connolly, representing Free the Children, then we'll follow them by moving from the left to the right. I think what we will try to do is have each of you testify for roughly ten minutes, if that's possible, and you can decide how you'd like to divide your time. If you would like a little more time, that's fine with me, provided my colleagues agree - and I'm sure they're a very agreeable lot. After all of the testimony is done, we'll open it up for questions.

With that, I would call on Laura Hannant or Kyle Connolly. Ms Hannant, who would like to begin? The microphone goes on when the red light comes on, so anything you say now will be heard. Don't talk too quickly, because if you speak in French it has to be translated into English, and vice versa.

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Mr. Kyle Connolly (Ottawa Member, Free the Children): I guess I'm going to be going first.

My name is Kyle Connolly, and I'm a member of Free the Children. For more than a year now, Free the Children has been working on the issue of child labour. Never have we seen child labour as a simple problem. Never have we said that child labour would end with simple solutions.

Before he travelled to Asia in November, 1995 - a year ago - Craig Kielburger spoke to 2,000 delegates at the Ontario Federation of Labour. He told them that when we at Free the Children talk about child labour:

And when Craig spoke about solutions - and I again quote from last year's speech - he said:

Does this sound like a simple solution? It doesn't to me. It sounds like a multifaceted approach. Last month I gave a speech to 800 delegates at a convention in Saskatchewan. I may be young, but I too know that child labour is a complex issue - and I told those 800 delegates the same thing.

This month the International Labour Organisation came out with a report that stated:

In May 1995, the executive director of UNICEF, United Nations Headquarters, New York, Carol Bellamy, sent out a memo to UNICEF offices around the world about UNICEF's new buying policy. It stated that in keeping with the principles of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, UNICEF:

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We, the young people of this world, have taken a stand. We are voicing our opinion all over the planet. Free the Children has been invited to Hong Kong, Zimbabwe, Morocco, South Africa, Ireland, Brazil, Argentina and Germany, to help rally children around the world to fight for the rights of children. Next week, Laura is leaving for Sweden to speak to students in schools.

Children have rights. They have the right to go to school. They have the right to be protected from abuse and exploitation. They have the right to speak out, to have a voice. All children have these rights, regardless of what part of the world they live in, regardless of how rich or how poor they are.

Only when the governments of this world take a stand against child labour will change come about. It comes down to a question of political will. You are the politicians. We ask you, the representatives of the Canadian government, to take a firm stand against child labour. I believe it's up to every one of us to take personal responsibility for the state of the world that we live in and to move from merely talking to taking action. If we all work together, we really can make a difference. Please join in our cause.

Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Connolly.

Ms Hannant, did you want to add something?

Ms Laura Hannant (Ottawa Member, Free the Children): Good afternoon, and thank you for giving us the opportunity to speak to you today. My name is Laura Hannant, I'm 11 years old, and I'm in grade 6 at Vincent Massey Public School. I'm also a member of Free the Children.

[Translation]

Good afternoon. Thank you for this opportunity to speak to you today. My name isLaura Hannant. I am 11 years old and a sixth-grade student at Vincent Massey School. I am also a member of the Ottawa chapter of Free the Children.

[English]

First of all, I would like to tell you about an exciting new development. Reebok International recognized that in one part of Pakistan, as many as 20% of the people who stitch together soccer balls are children. Reebok, one of the world's largest manufacturers of sports equipment, decided to do something about it. The company announced yesterday that all of its soccer balls will carry a label that reads: ``Guaranteed manufactured without child labour''. And when Reebok announced this initiative, it also said that it is supporting educational and vocational training programs for the children who once made these soccer balls. This makes Reebok not only a leader in the field of sporting goods, but in the elimination of child labour. The labelling system that Reebok is starting voluntarily will give consumers the information needed to allow them to make the decisions they make.

This is the kind of leadership that we hope the Canadian government can provide, but I would also like to talk to you about Rugmark, an international labelling system that identifies carpets made without child labour. I have here the first rug sold in Canada with ``Rugmark'' on it. I don't know if you can see it properly, but this is the seal that shows that this rug was not made with the suffering of children, and was not made through child exploitation.

Two weeks ago, at the Canadian launch for Rugmark, Kerry Kennedy Cuomo, daughter of Robert Kennedy, said that Rugmark allows for people to buy beautiful carpets and walk on beautiful carpets without walking on the dreams of children. This is the purpose of Rugmark: to make sure that these carpets are not made by children under the age of 14, because the reality is that many of these children are virtual slaves who are beaten, malnourished and then forced to work for more than twelve hours a day. To ensure against this, the Rugmark primary school has been opened in the heart of India's carpet industry, Uttar Pradesh. Rugmark is already in use in Europe and in theUnited States, and is supported by UNICEF India. Canada is behind in the process of making Rugmark available.

Freeing the children does not just mean releasing them from the sweatshops. We're supporting a rehabilitation centre in India to help children return to normal lives. We're also involved with a project to set up four schools in rural India for freed bonded labourers. Children will be fed and educated and will also be given rice or grain to take home to their families. Through this kind of project we hope to help the families and break the cycle of poverty in order to give children a fair chance.

Thank you. Merci.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Ms Hannant.

Moving on to Kids for Human Rights and Justice, we have Jemima Day Cowan andCaitlin Smith. Who would like to speak first?

Ms Jemima Day Cowan (Founding Member, Kids for Human Rights and Justice): I would.

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The Chairman: Excuse me, Ms Cowan, just before you begin, this is a half-hour bell, so we can go to roughly 4:15 p.m. We probably can get through quite a bit of the testimony. Then we'll come back and ask you questions. It will give us time to think up questions, too, so they'll be tougher questions.

Ms Day Cowan: All right.

Our organization is working in the Kitchener-Waterloo area at present, with students in grades 7, 8 and 9. KHRJ works towards increasing awareness about human rights issues in the developing world, especially in the areas of children's rights and women's rights. We're working with a number of NGOs both in Canada and abroad, including World Accord, the INSAN Foundation, SAP Pakistan, and PDAP.

You've heard about child labour - and these children did an excellent job of talking about it - but we'd like to talk a little bit about youth activism, how we got started, and how it's possible to engage children in becoming activists. I would like to begin this issue with a story.

This story is about a girl named Shahida. She was 15 years old and working as a domestic servant. Her father found this job and said that all the money would come directly to him. He told her to take good care of herself and warned her not to accuse others of misconduct.

After two months, one of her employers wanted to have sex with her. When she refused, he beat her with a belt and raped her. He did this again and again, for a month. Her father told her not to accuse him, and would not help her, so she ran away. The police arrested her and took her back home, where her father beat her up and sent her back to work. There she was beaten and raped again for two months. She became ill and could not work. She had tuberculosis, but her family would not help her. Her mother would not take any action because she was afraid of losing her family's honour. Shahida died shortly after telling this story.

How does this story make you feel? It makes me feel sick, among other things. It also makes me want to change this situation. How do you change these and other situations when you're a kid? This is what I want to share with you - how to create youth activism.

This and many other stories of child labour have affected me personally. When I hear these kinds of stories, my heart reaches out to these kids - the same kids I'm sharing my future with.

This is the creation of the first step towards youth activism - the internalizing of others' lives. The desire to change things has to come from the heart, and you can only create this motivation in others by sharing what you feel.

Ms Caitlin Smith (Founding Member, Kids for Human Rights and Justice): The second component to youth activism is parental, peer, and community support. Peer support is having a group of people who feel the same way you do in your community. It is having your ideas accepted and allows you to express your own opinions freely.

Parental and community support is also very important. Shahida was not supported by her parents or her community. Everybody needs support networks. Organizations can form these supports. They can happen in schools, where teachers and friends encourage and guide; through working with NGOs such as World Accord to provide resources and contacts; or through organizations throughout the world such as the INSAN Foundation located in Pakistan, which works with child labourers, parents, employers and the community; PDAP, which provides support to youth in the Philippines; or the CORDI Foundation of India, which provides shelter for women.

The following story illustrates how CORDI was a support for Jandevah and her two children. Jandevah lived in Madras, India, with her son, who was 12 years old, and her daughter, who was 13. The kids were going to school, but their father decided that they should be working. Their mother didn't want them to work, so her husband beat her again and again and threatened to kill her if the children continued to go to school.

This had been an ongoing problem in their family. Sending the children out to work was the last straw. Jandevah felt that if the children were going to have to work, they would all be better off dead. They wanted to be run over by a train instead of going to work. On the way to the train tracks, her son saw a poster. This poster changed all of their lives. It was advertising the CORDI women's shelter. They went there as a last resort.

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The children are now back in school, and both of them would like to work to end violence against women. This story demonstrates the third component to youth activism: education, knowledge, awareness. Without the knowledge of CORDI, these children's lives would have been very different.

Ms Day Cowan: Personal motivation; peer, community and family support; and education - these ingredients are easily met through school. In this environment we get support from our friends and our teachers. If children's rights were part of the curriculum, we would get internal motivation through hearing stories and through exchanging letters and stories with children in developing countries. The education need would be met by teaching children about children's rights and about the complexities of child labour. Caitlin and I have had the fortune of such an education, but many Canadian are not as privileged.

Let me expand on this education thought. One of the best ways to reach children is through their schools, where we spend so much of our day that it's practically a second home. One presentation won't do much to affect people's lives. Having these issues integrated into the curriculum, through role-playing, discussions, videos, and games, lets children learn through playing - which is, after all, the way kids learn.

The curriculum at present teaches mostly Canadian issues. This is all very well, but problems don't stop at borders. Why do units in our schools focus on Canada? We cannot stay isolated. All children are part of the same future and our decisions affect one another.

We are working on writing units for curriculum that teachers could use in the classroom.

Child labour is closely related to history, geography and social sciences, both in Canada and around the world. Exchanges of letters and videos add a personal touch and make an impact on children as they see kids very like themselves in very different situations. If we share our curriculum with other countries, then children all over the world will learn about their rights. This way, children in Canada and other countries can learn about different cultures around the world as well.

[Translation]

Consumers should bring pressure to bear on international corporations, governments and large organizations to find solutions to these problems and to improve the treatment of workers. This is more important than profits. Consumers have a strong voice in our society. We can also form groups to promote public awareness. In-depth awareness of the problem is vital, otherwise the situation will only get worse.

[English]

Ms Smith: There is no such thing as a simple solution, as child labour is connected to many issues. Women's rights, environmental problems, trade versus development, financial markets, consumerism and corporate profits are all part of the problem. Many Canadians do not even know what child labour is. This is where youth activism comes in. If children are running workshops and conferences, awareness can spread rapidly. However, as we've said before, a single presentation will not do much to change people's lives.

Discussions, application, and re-examining of morals and values are necessary as part of raising awareness. The whole complex situation must be portrayed. If child labour is treated as a black and white issue, people will arrive at black and white responses, which may injure child labourers more than help them.

Imposing trade sanctions, for example, seems at first to be a good way to ensure that Canadian consumers are not supporting child labour, but child labour may be simply driven underground. If children are simply released they will probably end up in far worse situations that cannot be regulated at all, such as brick-making or prostitution.

Ms Day Cowan: Superficial approaches often end up hurting the very people you're trying to help. If you have only the first two components of activism, you get what we call the ``rescue the poor children'' approach. The American Harkin bill is a good example of this lack of knowledge. The bill had wonderful intentions, but the mere threat of it caused thousands of child garment workers to be fired. One study followed twelve children who were released from their jobs in the garment factory. All of them took up dangerous jobs that didn't pay as much. Some, who had been going to school after work, now had to drop out altogether.

Canadian youth are not very involved in issues such as child labour because there's a serious lack of education about them. However, lack of education also exists in third world countries, with even more impact on the youth and their future.

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Ms Smith: In the developing world, school does not meet the needs of children because it does not teach them the various skills they need to get a job and to support their family.

It is also very important to improve the schools in the developing world. In most places, the schools are very crowded, with about 150 children for each teacher and not many materials available. How are teachers supposed to teach like this? Children are often beaten for their mistakes, and they don't feel they are doing anything useful. So even light pressure from families and communities causes them to leave school to find work.

Children often receive some of their wages as spending money so they can buy the things they see on TV. Consumerism encourages child labour. Recently, during a discussion with Mohammed Tahseen of the INSAN Foundation, he suggested that up to 80% of Pakistan's child labourers are working to buy the products they find out about through the popular media. There are NGOs working in countries like this to provide children with better education, which often takes place after work.

The best way to start with adults is also education. For instance, there are many workers in the developing world who are being mistreated terribly who either do not know about their rights or are afraid to stand up for them. For example, workers who attempt to form unions are fired immediately, and people who try to follow through may be beaten or even killed.

Canada can provide protection and teach them their rights and how to form unions. If adults are being paid a fair wage, then families will rise out of poverty and children will have no need to work.

Ms Day Cowan: We need knowledge and awareness to become active and we need to stimulate imaginations and consciences. In the long run, all our actions must be done with the good of the world in mind. Making profits will not work if there is no future in which to spend them. We cannot continue forever along these paths, as our resources will run out before today's adults have even retired.

The best solution would be to eliminate world debt and poverty. As wealth transfers to the growing middle class because families no longer need to pay off their debt, child labour isn't needed any more and children may be free to go to school. Schools would also be improved because governments would have more money available to put toward education. If this happens, it is the best long-term way to solve child labour.

Ms Smith: Education is the key to understanding so many of our global issues and our shared future. Courage is working toward creating a curriculum to provide knowledge that, in turn, will encourage youth activism. In our exchanges with organizations and youth in the developing world, we have concluded that we can help each other to share and create this curriculum.

Let's take another look at the two stories. One had a very tragic ending because there were not any options available to Shahida. The second story had a much happier ending with help from the CORDI Foundation.

Again, the three components to youth activism are internal motivation, support networks and knowledge. The potential motivation and support is out there; we only need to share the knowledge.

Ms Day Cowan: Imagine looking at the issue of child labour through a telescope. You examine a certain issue in detail, such as child or slave labour, prostitution or carpet factories, but the surrounding issues are blocked out by the telescope.

Now take away the telescope and replace it with a magnifying glass. A magnifying glass allows you to zero in on one particular situation, but it doesn't block out any of the things around it. It is easy now to see the complex reasons for the existence of child labour and the practices that support it.

From this point of view, you will see that it is closely connected to many other human rights and environmental issues, such as wife and child abuse, pollution and other problems.

Our organization uses a magnifying-glass approach on all human rights and looks for solutions that will work on a long-term scale, rather than just band-aid solutions.

Remember, if you give a person a fish, they'll eat today; if you teach a person how to fish, they'll eat forever. It takes motivation to want to teach the person, support to teach them and knowledge about how to fish, which are the three components to youth activism. This is the philosophy that courage is built on.

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So we don't work only on child labour. We have a pretty good understanding of many other issues as well.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Ms Cowan and Ms Smith.

Maintenant, Mme Bernier.

Ms Émilie Bernier (Representative, Canada World Youth): Are you sure you have time? You can go to vote and I'll do this later. I don't mind.

The Chairman: No, you have about ten minutes.

Ms Bernier: This takes at least ten minutes.

The Chairman: Then I think we'd better do it later.

I adjourn the meeting temporarily.

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The Chairman: We're back for our final presentation.

[Translation]

Ms Bernier, you may being.

Ms Bernier: My name is Émilie Bernier and I am here as a former participant in the Canada World Youth program and as someone who has travelled to a number of developing countries.

What I am about to say is based on very empirical knowledge. My comments relate to the experiences that I have had, to the people whom I've met and to the data I've collected from various sources, including books.

First of all, let me read you a definition of child labour as explained in this excerpt from the book Child Labour: A Guide to Project Design by Alec Fyfe. It's fairly brief.

[English]

[Translation]

As to the reason why children work, I will read you another brief excerpt, also in English. Please excuse my pronunciation which may be a little faulty.

[English]

[Translation]

I wondered in which parts of the world children were exploited and I discovered in the course of my readings that this did not only happen in developing countries, but in industrialized ones as well. Even in the United States, child labour has taken on alarming proportions.

What type of work are children involved in? It can range from shining shoes to prostitution, from making rugs to begging and many other activities.

There are obvious reasons why it is important to fight child labour. A child who starts working at five, seven or twelve years of age will be completely transformed and his life will be disrupted forever because he will be forced to grow up much too quickly. He will be required to take on adult responsibilities and his childhood will be lost. He will spend his days packing chalk in boxes instead of learning in school and having a chance at a better life down the road.

Furthermore, these children will not be able to enter the labour force later on because by the age of 15, they will be either ill, exhausted or dead.

These children are not even aware that they are being exploited because this is the only life they know. They are either sold by their family or simply... Businessmen contact their family and say: ``We're going to hire you for a few months, we will train you and then, you will be able to practice a trade.'' However, the reality they face is quite different. These children never go on to enter the labour market. They remain forever in these so-called training workshops.

The situation is critical because there are currently several hundred million children working in factories, on the streets, in the fields and even as domestics.

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I would now like to show you several slides that I took during my travels in developing countries. This won't take very long.

The photographs are those of children whom I met and with whom I became personally acquainted.

I will give you a little background information about each slide and tell you what type of work these children do and which country they come from.

The first slide is of children doing so-called marginal work. The categories that I will refer to were identified in research done by a McGill University student whose name I can give you, if you wish. These are Aymara children on Lake Titicaca in Peru. These children are used as guinea pigs for the photographers. This young girl comes from Sun Island on the same lake.

These children let you photograph them, and then they ask you for money which they often turn over to their parents because their families are quite poor. These children scavenge for bottles in the streets and in the areas surrounding the city of Sucre in Bolivia. The next photograph was taken in the Potoso mines.

When I was in South America, more precisely in Bolivia, I visited the mines and one of our guides was a child of approximately 7 years of age. He was one of the spider-children. These children scurried about in all of the small caverns to see if the passageways were safe for us. They were also sent down to check out the staircases to see if they were safe.

This young girl's story is rather unique. In South America, I worked in a seniors' home and after the residents had been served their meal, food was distributed to the homeless in the street. This five-year-old girl was called Roberta. Everyday, she would come for food with her blind father. She also roamed the streets of the city during the day. All she did was hold her blind father's arm and beg. Of course, this young girl will never attend school and will spend her entire life living in wretched conditions.

The next category is co-called domestic work. Children often do this type of work to help out their parents, without truly realizing what they are doing or that they are being exploited. The paradoxical thing about child labour is the cultural subtext. In Indian families, children have always carried water with other family members. They do not attend school because they have to work in the fields. It is important to remember this fact when addressing this issue.

This is a photograph of my young neighbour. She lived in Newasa, a village in India in the Maharashtra. This young girl did not go to school because she had to take care of her two-year-old brother during the day. Her mother had four or five other children and worked outside the home as well.

This is the fate that awaits this little girl. One day, she will be sold and married off to a man who will surely exploit her and make her work from sunup to sundown, showing with no respect whatsoever for her rights.

Here is another photograph of the same little girl. The two children standing in front of her attended the village school where I taught. They are not her brother and sister, but rather distant cousins.

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Here is a photograph of a group of children. Many of the young girls are holding children in their arms, like the young girl seen in the corner here. These children come from a very poor village where their parents work approximately 12 hours a day in construction. Their village has no running water or sanitation facilities. Therefore, the focus is not on the children, but rather on construction projects.

This slide depicts a unique type of activity, one that is non-domestic and unpaid. Many of these children work in the agricultural sector, like this young girl from the Maharashtra region in southern India. Her parents are itinerant sugar cane workers.

These families travel from region to region cutting the cane in season. In addition to working in the fields for five to eight hours a day, this young girl begged in the village of Newasa where I lived. Attending school is out of the question for her. She does not even speak the national language. Instead, she speaks a dialect unique to sugar cane workers.

This slide shows her with her family. In India, families are quite large. Although children work, it's not because their parents do not love them. That's why this is such a delicate subject.

Many children also work in the public markets. This photograph depicts the public market in Newasa.

Many children also work for the family business. The young girl seen here appears to be about 20 years of age, but in reality she is only 15 or so. She will never go to school either and will have no chance of escaping the fate that awaits her.

Children do not only work at unpaid jobs or suffer abuse at the hands of industry. Some young men and women do work at paying jobs. This photograph depicts a library construction site. We were working on a volunteer project in that area. This young woman was approximately 16 years old and she already had a three-year-old daughter who was brought to the construction site, either by a cousin or by the young mother's sister, to be nursed three times a day.

A 13-year-old boy was also working with us on the construction site carrying bricks all day long. He never attended school.

There really is no short-term solution to all of these problems associated with child labour, but projects are underway in India, South America, Asia and Africa. While still in the developmental stages, these projects are already showing some results.

This slide shows a school for young street girls, whose parents cannot afford to send them to a private school. The school was founded by the man in the right hand corner. These young girls are fed, clothed and educated free of charge. Many pilot projects have also been developed to teach poor, unemployed young girls how to sew and or young street boys how to work with electricity.

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Projects such as this need to be encouraged. We must not lose sight of cultural considerations and we must look beyond the mere fact that children are working. We have to realize that the money the child earns by working often helps to feed the family. Child labour isn't the only issue here.

This photograph shows orphan children in South America. This is another example of a project which helps to eliminate child labour. These children will be raised in an orphanage until the age of 16; they will then be monitored closely. They will be sent to cities where they will have better working conditions and be given accommodation. They will be reintegrated into society, so to speak, instead of being a turned out into the streets to be exploited. In Brazil, for example, street children, in addition to being exploited by drug traffickers, are often killed because many powerful Brazilian drug lords view them as embarrassing witnesses.

Orphanages, schools and training courses are solutions. Efforts must also be made to introduce tougher workplace inspections, whether it be a case of textile or rug factories, or small or large companies. In my opinion, awareness is the key to fighting child labour.

I have asked the clerk to pass around a book of photographs of children who work in developing countries. If you would like to look at it, you will find it very interesting. It's the type of book that heightens people's awareness of child labour.

There is no short-term solution to the problem of child labour. The battle will be won by educating these children, by introducing tougher rules governing workplace inspections, by involving unions, above all, by promoting worldwide awareness of the problem, that is awareness in Western and in so-called developing countries.

Once a person realizes that the small packet of incense purchased in a trendy exotic imports store as a gift or for personal pleasure was produced by a child squatting in a small, ill-lit room and working in dusty, unsanitary conditions for the princely sum of four rupees for every 1,000 sticks of incense - four rupees equal 25 cents and 1,000 sticks of incense represent three hours of steady work - this will be the first step toward eliminating child labour.

Of course, awareness and action are not necessarily synonymous. Simply being aware of the fact that the packet of incense is the fruit of child labour and child exploitation will not solve the problem, but at least, it will make people stop to think and perhaps take concrete action.

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There is no easy solution, but every effort must be made to give children back their childhood. Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you, Ms Bernier. That was a very worthwhile presentation. We have five minutes.

Mrs. Debien.

Mrs. Debien (Laval East): First of all, I would like to thank these people for agreeing to take part in the committee's work. Ms Day Cowan and Ms Smith have told us that it takes a special kind of person to become a child's rights activist, not the least of which is a desire to act and a heartfelt commitment. No doubt committee members are sensitive to the concerns that you have raised.

You mentioned that the support of parents was needed and you spoke of the importance of a network. You also stated that schools need to educate students and make them aware of the problem. Ms Bernier spoke of global awareness. Today, you have conveyed your concerns to members and I strongly encourage you to continue on the same course.

Kyle had some rather harsh words to say about Canada's stand on the issue. Either he or Laura stated that Canada had no firm position and that a certain person had even gone so far as to say that work was a necessary evil. If that's Canada's position, then I want to distance myself completely from it. This is your opinion, and I don't feel that you have to defend it in any way.

Judging from what you have said and from the concerns you have expressed and, in particular, given the long term solution that you advocated, namely the elimination of poverty, I would like to know what you expect the Canadian government to do in the meantime? We can't expect to eradicate poverty overnight, in spite of the efforts of the Canadian and Quebec governments. Can you give me some concrete examples of what the Canadian government should do tomorrow morning or next week, something to guide members in their work? Of course, these would only be partial solutions, but they might be useful in dealing with the wider problem.

[English]

The Chairman: We just got news from the whip's office that we have to go back to vote.

Mr. Connolly, you will have a lot of time to think about that question. If you didn't understand any of it because of the apparatus not working, perhaps some of the others have heard it and can explain it. We'll be back and we'll give you a chance to answer the question. This sounds like Jeopardy, doesn't it?

We'll be back as soon as we vote. Perhaps Senator Pearson will have some questions in our absence, in an informal sense. She can't vote with us.

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The Chairman: I'd like to call the meeting to order again and apologize for this continuous delay we've been having this afternoon. We've had to vote on several bills, and we've just managed to vote on our final one, I hope, so we will not be interrupted again.

We've had lots of time to think of questions for you, and we thank you for your patience. Some have accused us of abusing 11-year-olds by keeping you so long, but I do apologize for this delay.

Mr. Telegdi (Waterloo): I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

Given the sensitive nature of our topic, if we're going to be here listening to the witnesses, perhaps you could order up some sandwiches, or we'll really be accused of starving our witnesses. They have been here since before 3:30 p.m. and I expect they will probably be here for another hour.

The Chairman: I'm unfamiliar with the rules of the House on ordering of food, but perhaps the clerk could enlighten me. We'll look into that question.

I happened to notice there were trays of sandwiches outside for the pages. I tried to take one, but they prevented me from doing so. There's a page here. That page has the legal right to seize a plate of sandwiches, so I'll leave the suggestion on the table.

When we left, I believe Madame Debien had asked Mr. Connolly a question about his report. Mr. Connolly, did you have a chance to...?

Mr. Connolly: We talked a little bit and we're not really prepared to answer such a question at this time. We'll probably get back to you in a little while, after the organization discusses it a little bit.

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The Chairman: Ms Smith.

Ms Smith: We have suggestions about what you could do.

The Chairman: Sure.

Ms Day Cowan: We were thinking maybe you could allocate a certain amount of money to go towards educating women, because when women are educated it makes life a lot better for the whole community and it allows children to rise out of poverty, and also to institute trade rewards, maybe a slight tax break for companies who could prove they were paying their workers a fair wage, enough to support their families.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Ms Smith, did you have something to add to that?

Ms Smith: No.

The Chairman: Madame Bernier.

[Translation]

Ms Bernier: The solution lies in investing in developing countries, in educating women and in schooling. In my opinion, some of the money for this must come from the companies that are seen to exploit children or where this has clearly proven to be the case. Earlier, mention was made of Reebok, a company that employs children. The company has profited at the expense of those children.

Why not fine Reebok, even then it has made some progress and admitted the error of its ways. The money could be used to launch projects like those put forward in the book which I showed you earlier, projects such as educating children. Even here in Canada and Quebec, efforts must be made to educate people and to provide more support to programs such as Canada World Youth which heighten youth awareness and encourage them to take action, such as coming to talk to you today as I have done. By investing in development projects, we are investing in the fight against poverty in the Third World and also against abuse inflicted by the North on the South.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mrs. Gaffney.

[English]

Mrs. Gaffney (Nepean): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I too want to thank you for appearing before this committee. Sometimes it takes courage to appear before a committee that's going to ask you questions, and members of Parliament in particular. I also want to thank you for picking up this cause and being activists for the benefit of children in the world.

You might be surprised to know that I have been a human rights activist since I was probably your age, Laura and Kyle. I have been very interested in the betterment of people in the world. Like Émilie, I have visited countries, in particular on human rights expeditions to El Salvador and Guatemala.

In fact, I was at the Guatemala-Mexican border with the Canadian ambassador when the indigenous people were finally released from the refugee camps. That in itself was a tremendous experience for me.

I have visited some of the African nations and have seen the poverty in the world, and again, I've been on a human rights expedition to Sri Lanka.

I mention that to you to let you know that certainly all members of Parliament are not insensitive to this issue. Obviously the Prime Minister is sensitive too, or he would not have set up this committee, as is the foreign affairs minister. That is why we're here, to hear from people like yourselves.

Look at Senator Landon Pearson over here, who has been appointed by the Prime Minister to be his prime resource person and adviser to him on human rights issues.

Senator Pearson (Ontario): It's not really the Prime Minister; it's the foreign minister.

Mrs. Gaffney: Oh, the foreign minister - I'm sorry.

Landon Pearson has lived all over the world and is well known for her activism in protecting children's rights.

I have just returned this morning from the United Nations. I have been there and have attended to a great many briefs and talked to a great many people. I want to tell you what I heard there.

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I think, Kyle, you were pretty hard on us when you said that Canada is being left behind in examining this issue. Because that is on the record, I want to say to you and to everybody else who is going to read the record that Canada is not being left behind. Canada is very much in the forefront in dealing with this issue.

We met with Canada's representative to the UN dealing with human rights. In fact, I sat behind him yesterday in a committee when he was presenting Canada's position on human rights to the General Assembly. If you could have heard his speech...maybe you should get a copy of his speech. I don't want to get into it in great detail, but he represented Canada in a way that made me very proud to be there and very proud to be sitting behind him.

We also met with the.... I forget all their titles. I wish I had brought with me the notes I wrote when I was in New York. We met with the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mr. Lasso or something. Do you know his name?

A voice: Jose Ayala Lasso.

Mrs. Gaffney: Thank you very much. He's a very, very thoughtful man. When we were there, we were given the opportunity to ask him questions personally. When we left, the word came through from our Canadian mission in New York that he was most impressed with the types of questions and the interests and the concerns that we as a committee and as MPs had on issues of children's rights around the world. To have the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights saying this about Canadian MPs was certainly very encouraging for me.

You talk about women's issues. We also met with the ambassador on gender issues at the UN; I believe her name was Ambassador Green. She is very much involved with gender issues around the world. Jemima, I think it was your suggestion that if we educate women, we will reduce poverty and we will educate children through the women. That's very much what's happening in the African nations today, and Canada is certainly involved in that.

To cut my presentation shorter, Mr. Chair, the final person we met last night wasStephen Lewis, who is the chair of UNICEF. He was telling us what he was doing through UNICEF. Where does UNICEF get its money? It gets its money from everywhere in the world through donations or through whatever. But the programs he is running on behalf of Canada are through CIDA. One thing they are doing is telling children who are earning money through child labour that they will give the children the same amount of money if they go to school. The children then can turn that money back to the parents or whatever. That is a definite approach that we as Canadians can use.

Canada is a very small player in the world. There are millions and millions of children and women who need our help. I think what we're doing is a very small step in that direction. We need to do so much more.

I don't have a question, but I wanted to let them know that Canada is a world player. Canada is so highly thought of at the United Nations. We had people come to us and say thank goodness for Canada in Haiti. There are children in Haiti. There are women in Haiti. The little that we are doing in Haiti.... We were the ones who went in and said we would extend our time in Haiti.

We look at how the women and children suffered in Bosnia. Canada was the world leader in making sure we were there to help those women and children in Bosnia. Canada took the leadership role with regard to Zaire and Rwanda. We know how the children have suffered in those African nations in that particular area.

I mention this because I want to wave the banner of Canada a little bit. At the same time, I appreciate your suggestions and I appreciate what you're doing. We need to do more. Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mrs. Gaffney. I take that as a comment that really doesn't need any comment from the witnesses, unless any individual witness wants to comment.

I'll pass to Mr. Telegdi. You had a question.

Mr. Telegdi: First of all, I'd like to welcome the witnesses to the committee and thank them for the discussion and thought that they will encourage in the country.

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Let me say something. I came to this country when I was 10 years old. I was a refugee when I came to this country. When I was 10 years old I worked on a collective farm in the summer. When I was 9 years old I did the same and when I was 8 years old I did the same. This was in Hungary, when it was the socialist paradise behind the Iron Curtain.

I have discussions with my daughter, who is 10 and a half years old. Sometimes she isn't all that interested in the discussion, but I mention that because too often we in Canada do not appreciate the role we do play internationally and how we are so very fortunate to be living in this country.

I was in Bosnia-Herzegovina for the elections that took place in September and I was in Mexico for the elections that took place back in 1994, and I can tell you the Americans were all coming up to me wanting those little Canadian pins with Canadian flags so they could identify themselves as Canadian, because Canadians are so much better thought of when we go abroad.

There's no question the issues you raised are very important, and they need debate and support from the Canadian public.

One of the areas where we help with poverty is through CIDA, but many constituents of mine ask what we are doing spending money overseas when we have problems in our own communities.

As I was mentioning to you, we released a report on crime prevention and community safety. In my community in the Waterloo region of Kitchener - Waterloo, many kids go to school hungry or use the St. John's Food Bank, and the demand on the food banks is quite extensive. The report says the offender of tomorrow often is the vulnerable child of today, and this is right here in Canada.

So I think it's important that we recognize the need here, but then recognize our obligation overseas as well. Especially in communities, you can point at the need locally as well as the need externally and also get the message across that we are so very fortunate. But as you know, there's great debate about cutting taxes and not reaching out and helping the less fortunate members of our community.

What you're doing can have great educational value both locally and internationally.

Back when I was 8, 9 and 10 working on that farm - and I was talking to Beryl, and she was doing something similar in P.E.I. - our biggest need at the time was making sure that as a family we had enough to eat and we had shelter. Those were very basic needs for us.

To deal with child labour, you really want to deal with poverty, as has been recognized and mentioned. We need to do that abroad and at home, and we need to have a Canadian public that understands the issues and understands what the needs are.

Let me ask you what your thoughts are about the dual purpose and being able to relate it to home and abroad.

The Chairman: Who would like to respond to that question?

Ms Cowan.

Ms Day Cowan: We have to remember that while third world countries have things to learn from us, we also have things to learn from them, such as how they have kept their community together and how one person won't starve if the rest of the community has enough food. They look after each other there. There are lessons we can apply to Canada. We need to recognize that there are very good things in their culture.

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You were talking about the farm. Especially in the agricultural sector, a lot of families need the whole family to be working for ten hours a day just to make sure there's enough food on the table at breakfast and supper.

What we can maybe do there is provide school, very locally and perhaps for only two hours a day, so the children could go to school while still putting in ten hours of work on the farm. They could still get an education and have a chance to rise out of poverty while making sure there's food on the table.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Ms Smith.

Ms Smith: I'd like to add something to that.

A lot of people do go on aid missions to the third world and don't realize they're not only going there to help people; they're going there to learn. They're not just going there to teach. They have to learn things themselves from the people there.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Graham.

Mr. Graham (Rosedale): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I too would like to welcome the witnesses and thank them very much for their evidence.

For me, what was impressive about the evidence we heard this afternoon was partly the distinction between the positions taken by the two groups.

As I understood the position taken by Free the Children, it's a rather harder line, if I can put it that way, in terms of the need for a boycott - a definite decision that certain things be done.

I read into the Kids for Human Rights and Justice a subtler approach, saying we must be careful that what we do is in the real interests of children. If we act too precipitously, cases have been demonstrated where in fact a boycott at the wrong time may bear on the children rather than on the people who are exploiting the children. It could be the children who pay the price of this.

This is not tolerable for the sake of our own political well-being. We think we're doing something, but if in fact the people who will suffer for the consequences of this are the very people we are saying we're helping, we aren't.

Mr. Chairman, I think that is very much what we will have to struggle with in the committee: to decide when it's appropriate and when it isn't.

I would remind the committee members that in the past we have done this in this committee. We've looked at cases such as Nigeria, for example, and Burma, and said maybe a total boycott is appropriate in those circumstances, whereas a total boycott might not be appropriate in other circumstances, because it would be counter-productive.

Those are the big issues we'll have to wrestle with, and I'm grateful to the witnesses for coming here and putting them as sophisticatedly, intelligently and helpfully as they did. I do appreciate that.

I would just like to leave with you a suggestion too. In the course of your evidence you've mentioned the role of women and the family in ensuring an appropriate approach to this issue. This too is something we've been wrestling with in this committee since we first were called into this Parliament.

Mr. English and I were elected for the first time to this Parliament. We were on the foreign affairs committee and we looked at a whole review of Canadian foreign policy. One of the things we had to do was look at our aid policy and at where we should be putting our money in foreign aid.

We have urged the Government of Canada that 25% of all our aid budget should go to issues such as poverty, civil governance, helping women in agriculture and helping women stand on their own.

Also, when we went down to the international financial institutions, the World Bank, we again produced a report, which we'd be glad to give you, where we urged the World Bank to ensure that in its programs, 25% of all aid money would go to the types of issues we're talking about here today to ensure that children do have an opportunity for education. That's how these countries will climb out of the hole they're in.

We are all struggling with ways we can achieve the right balance here in terms of legislating against abuses and in terms of education, helping and giving aid to the right types of causes. We're grateful to you for coming and sharing with us your perceptions.

I want to pick up on one thing you mentioned, Ms Smith and Ms Cowan, about the idea of educational exchanges, because I agree with you. We learn by going abroad and other people learn by coming here. We do this a lot with parliamentarians. It's a very enriching experience for us. I just wondered if you could tell us a little bit about how you saw we might do this.

One of the problems we have with these exchanges is they're very expensive. It's sometimes difficult to persuade people to invest in this type of activity, yet it's very important for us. We're living in an integrated world, more and more, and young people can help that integration in a positive way.

If you have any plans, or if you come across any, to help us understand how we could help that process, we'd be appreciative. That's my question. Do you actually have a scheme afoot that you could put forward to the Canadian public to suggest how we could do this?

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Ms Day Cowan: We've been exchanging information and stories by e-mail. We're sending videos through the mail. Through e-mail and videos you can really get to know what the other person's life is like. It's like going to visit them, but it costs a lot less.

Ms Smith: Videos work well because you can see what people look like. It's easy to relate to someone when you can actually see them talking to you, not just see their words up on the screen.

Ms Day Cowan: As well, we have one video that shows child labourers showing off where they work, saying, this is what this is, and here's how we do this, as they take you around. It's very interesting and educational.

Mr. Graham: Thank you very much. That's very insightful.

My son keeps reminding me that I'm totally illiterate because I don't know how to use a computer or e-mail. You've just proved it. It's so evident that's exactly what we should be doing.

Are you onto e-mail as well, Mr. Connolly and Ms Hannant? Do you use a computer for that?

Mr. Connolly: I don't have e-mail but I use it at school.

Mr. Graham: You can access it actually through your school, can you?

Mr. Connolly: Yes.

Mr. Graham: That's tremendous. There you are.

The Chairman: Do you have access to e-mail as well?

Ms Hannant: Yes, I do. I get through to Craig that way. He can look over my speeches and we can talk about things using e-mail and the Internet.

Mr. Graham: Well, I want to say to you, on behalf of a member of Parliament, that you're better educated and ahead of me in this respect. Technology is leaving me behind.

[Translation]

I hope that Ms Émilie Bernier is doing the same thing.

Ms Bernier: No, not exactly.

Mr. Graham: That's a shame. I'm happy that I have at least one ally.

Ms Bernier: It's just that I'm from another generation.

Mr. Graham: I understand.

Ms Bernier: But I'll get around to doing it eventually.

[English]

The Chairman: Senator Pearson.

Senator Pearson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm an honorary member of this committee, but I would like to join with the others in expressing my appreciation for all of your presentations. I thought they were excellent. You really do contribute fresh eyes to the issue the rest of us have been looking at from different perspectives.

[Translation]

I greatly appreciated what you had to say about the child labour paradox, because as far as I'm concerned, this is one thing that we have to take into account in our deliberations. Fundamentally, work as such is not a bad thing, and people need to learn in order to appreciate what work represents. The challenge for us is not to ask children to hate work, but rather to give them an appropriate, visible foothold in the job market. It's very important that we do not get too emotional and convey the impression that work is something bad.

[English]

You've probably heard that, but I'd like to put on the record this appreciation. The two points you brought, the paradox of work...and then with your slides you showed us that in fact so much of what children do in these countries is tied to their family lives and is a contribution. We don't ever want to put children in the position of feeling that somehow what they're doing to help, as long as they're not paying a human price for it, is a bad thing, because it's one way for them to feel valued.

You brought this up in both your slides and your presentation. Thank you.

Thank you to all of you.

[Translation]

Ms Bernier: Thank you. I would also add that the important thing when considering any action is to respect the child and his family. It's not impossible to achieve a balance between work and school. Work doesn't necessarily have to be bad for children. I have seen children who work, who are not unhappy about their lot and who manage to go to school anyway.

In India, I had two host sisters. They did the cleaning and cooking at home and they worked as many children do in Canada, Quebec and in other industrialized countries.

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We have to know where to draw the line between abuse and work which can be rewarding for the child.

[English]

The Chairman: Are there any other comments?

Ms Cowan and Ms Hannant after.

Ms Day Cowan: Yes, particularly for girls, because they may put in 14 hours a day caring for the house, looking after their younger brothers, cooking, sewing, and caring for a garden, which is often unrecognized. It is work, but it's often necessary work, because if their parents are both out working there has to be someone to look after the young children. There has to be someone to clean the house. Perhaps they could spend a few hours at school each day and still manage to do that work, particularly if their younger siblings could go to school too, if there were some kind of child care available for them. That's my addition.

The Chairman: Ms Hannant.

Ms Hannant: I think we deal more with the labour that is exploitive to children. Dilip was a free, bonded labourer in India who witnessed the killings of two of his fellow employees at the same carpet factory. They were beaten to death, wrapped in gunny bags, and thrown into the river. No one was charged and nothing happened. It is this kind of behaviour, this kind of treatment, that does harm children and does kill and scare children. This is what we're trying to end.

We have a rehabilitation centre in India that helps children. They learn a trade, they go to school, they go home with rice and grain, and they have an income for their families. Those are the kinds of things we're supporting.

The Chairman: Thank you, Ms Hannant.

Ms Smith.

Ms Smith: In regard to Émilie's point about the fact that child labour is ingrained in the cultures in many of these places, in a lot of places it is acceptable because that's what happens in their culture. I think it's a very tricky thing to try to tiptoe around that while getting those children out of work and into more acceptable conditions, while still respecting what they have and the beliefs of the country.

The Chairman: Thank you, Ms Smith.

Mr. Telegdi, you had a question.

Mr. Telegdi: First of all, I would inform the witnesses that the justice department is now debating Bill C-27, which deals with sex tourism, where you have people going to third world countries or other countries for the purposes of sex tourism as it concerns children. This is something that's being debated right now.

There is something I've often wondered about, which perhaps you might not have thought about. Oftentimes I watch programs on kids going to school say in Japan, where the school system is incredibly competitive. They go to school all day and to private tutoring after school, and then they go to school on the weekends. There are incidents where, if they don't do well in school, they commit suicide. Is that something you have ever talked about?

[Translation]

Ms Bernier: In countries like Japan or India, where there are over 900 million people, in order to get anywhere in life, a person must be very ambitious. I have met young people my age in these countries who participated with me in the program. All of them were extremely ambitious. They studied 12 hours a day in addition to going to school. They don't have the time to work, but they do eventually manage to integrate into society and to become highly skilled workers.

Children who live in villages do not have any opportunity to be stimulated or to have their ambition aroused.

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These children will always remain in a slightly inferior class because children in cities are much more encouraged to learn and to excel. Competition is very important in countries like India and Japan, and this is a very delicate subject.

Earlier, you spoke of young people committing suicide. I'm well aware of this problem, but this is another matter entirely. On the one hand you have child labour, and on the other the extreme level of competitiveness which has serious consequences in countries like Japan. We have to be aware of both aspects of the problem, without necessarily confusing the issues.

[English]

The Chairman: If there are no further questions, I have one question, which was actually suggested to me by Mr. Schmitz.

YTV carries programs for children. I must admit, I don't watch it regularly, though perhaps I should. Do they cover issues such as this in the types of programs that are on YTV, or whatever the equivalent networks are?

Mr. Graham: They're working too hard.

The Chairman: That's right. You told me you don't have a television.

Mr. Connolly.

Mr. Connolly: I used to watch it all the time. They have the YTV news, which is all about issues that affect children here in Canada as well as in foreign countries. Sometimes if they have special programming they do feature issues of international concern for children and for adults. So, yes, they do look at a lot of issues affecting children.

The Chairman: Thank you very much. That clarifies things.

Yes, Ms Cowan.

Ms Day Cowan: I don't have a TV so I can't speak from experience. I've never had one, but from the people I've talked to it seems it has a very major influence on people's lives. Kids can sing commercial jingles before they know their times tables. Perhaps we should be educating a lot more people through the public media, but -

The Chairman: It's a plea for a television?

Ms Day Cowan: You have to ensure that you don't give too short an explanation because you're afraid of people losing interest. There's a very fine line to draw between making it short and interesting enough that people will watch it and making it so short that it doesn't give a proper explanation.

Ms Smith: The sitcoms and soap operas aren't portraying a lot of reality. I think if you are going to use TV as a source of information, you can't do it at the same time as a sitcom. It's just not reality. Trying to mix reality with something that's completely false usually doesn't work.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

I'd like to thank all of you for your participation today. I think this has been a most valuable contribution to our work. I don't know whether you are the youngest witnesses before a parliamentary committee ever, but certainly in recent memory I haven't seen any as young. You have brought a fresh voice, as Mrs. Gaffney reminded us.

This is on the record. There's a permanent record kept of your testimony and it will be valuable as we come to write our report and advise the government on its policy. It's also being televised, and we hope that, despite the fact that you, Ms Cowan, don't have a television, you'll be able to go over to someone's house and watch yourself on TV.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Graham: We had better warn you that we're not on at peak hours.

The Chairman: You can check the TV guide; eventually it will turn up.

We had wanted very much to hear the voices of people who are of the same age as the child labourers we're speaking of. Thank you very much. It has been very helpful.

I declare the meeting adjourned.

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