[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Wednesday, October 9, 1996
.1529 
[English]
The Chairman: Perhaps I could call the meeting to order. We apologize for starting a bit late. We had hoped to start a little earlier, but getting away from Question Period is not always that easy.
We're very pleased today to have with us representatives of CIDA and others who participated in the regional initiatives support program. We had wanted to hear about CIDA's work in this regard. We were delighted to learn we'd have the opportunity to hear some comments about work that is being done on this ground.
We have a very large delegation today. Let us begin with the CIDA representative, Mr. Bédard, who could perhaps then introduce the remainder of the delegation.
Mr. Jacques Bédard (Acting Regional Director, Central America Program, Canadian International Development Agency): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Ladies and gentlemen, it is an honour for us to have here in Canada right now the representatives from our five countries in Central America. They are forming part of what we call our advisory committee on the CIDA project on economic integration in Central America. Unfortunately, one of these representatives is sick and could not be here today.
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If you will allow me, Mr. Chairman, I will present to you these friends from Central America. They are here to assist and advise us on how we should deal with economic integration in Central America.
I will start with our main spokesperson, Father Xabier Gorostiaga, who is from Nicaragua. I will not give his whole CV, because I don't know it, but he is a university head in Nicaragua.
We have Mr. Aitkenhead Castillo, who is from Guatemala. He is closely related to what is going on in terms of peace accords in Guatemala.
We have Madam Mirna Lievano De Marquez, who is from El Salvador.
Madam Irma Acosta De Fortin is joining us from Honduras.
We also have Mr. Carlos Manuel Echeverria from Central America, who is the regional director of our project in Costa Rica. He's accompanied by Mr. André Carrier and Madam Jocelyne LaForce, who are both representatives of SOGEMA, which is our consulting firm delivering the project in Central America with Mr. Echeverria.
This is a very short presentation, but I think it gives you an idea that we are well represented here by all the countries in Central America, if you may notice, except for Mexico, which is not really part of Central America, and Panama.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. Who would like to make the opening comments?
Mr. André Carrier (Project Manager, CRC SOGEMA): Thank you for receiving us here today.
Just to help you understand, this delegation comes here to Canada to bring the experience and expertise from each member of our advisory committee on this regional integration process going on in Central America. It is a very critical question for the PAR program. The PAR program is intended to support this regional integration process mainly on economic organization with social equity.
Briefly, this CIDA program comes with a fund of $10 million Canadian, intended for the implementation of between 10 to 20 projects that should support regional initiatives for the economic modernization with social equity.
Already three projects are under implementation since the beginning of the year. Three new projects will be shortly implemented through a second competitive call for tender. This will mean that the PAR program will be at almost half of its evolution. Until now, very interesting collaborations were favoured through these projects with Canadian organizations.
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Each project has to come not only under the leadership of a regional Central American entity, but always with the support of a Canadian organization. This means that actually the three, and shortly the six projects benefit from the support of six very different Canadian organizations.
I will stop here and ask Father Gorostiaga to bring any information, observations and comments he has on the vision of our members on this regional integration process going on in Central America.
The Reverend Xabier Gorostiaga, S.J. (Rector, Central America University, and President, Economic and Social Investigations Centre for Central America and the Caribbean): Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank you very much for this kind invitation. I am very happy to be here.
Let me try to explain from our commission perspective the characteristics of this project.
I think we are a region in transition, from a war situation, from a polarization situation, to an integration process. That is not an easy process.
This project has specifically three characteristicss that I consider unique in many aspects. It's a project that tries to relate the new actors of the civil society with the regional institutions, with the governments, and with the most formal actors of our societies.
We are trying to fill the missing link in the creation of democracy and development. This lack of interconnection between the majority of the population who are very poor and have a very high unemployment, with the institutions, with the government and with the most active actors of the society...this missing link factor is crucial in the project.
The second aspect I consider important is that this project works with internal domestic consortia in which we can link peasant cooperatives, peasant producers with millions, and more importantly establish producers at domestic and regional levels. We have specific projects to do that.
This is probably one of the first projects that tries to establish consortia with Canadian actors. For instance, we had a very good meeting yesterday with CRÉECQ on how to transfer knowledge, savoir faire, and technology between a Canadian institution and our universities and technical institutions.
I think this idea of a consortia of the civil society in Central America with Canada is a key aspect of the project. At a moment when Canadian aid is diminishing, we can increase the quality of the cooperation. The quantity of aid is extremely important for a very decapitalized and destroyed region. But we consider that bringing these new dynamic forces from the civil society in Canada could be a key aspect. I think your committee can help us very much because you are the sustainable human development committee.
The third aspect is that this is a regional project. We are here not as individual citizens of each country of Central America, but as a group of friends who wants to help the creation of the new integration of Central America.
We started in 1960. We were the first regional project in Latin America. We basically started at the same time as the European integration; however, the Cold War situation of Central America stopped the integration process. How can we rebuild the integration process? We need to rebuild the old institutions rather than create new ones. How can we use what was established and what was very successful in economic terms for more than 20 years?
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Allow me to recall that between 1958 and 1978 ours was the region with the highest rate of growth in the world. In that sense we were similar to Taiwan and Singapore. We experienced a 6% annual growth rate for 20 years.
Central America is not Somalia, a region without resources. No, it's a region that had growth. However, at the moment our level is 70% below the poverty line.
How we use the potential of the region, the strategic location of the region between the north and south of the continent - crucial for NAFTA, crucial for Canada, and at the same time the natural bridge between the east and the west, between the Pacific and the Atlantic - how we rethink the region at the end of this century is one of the key elements of this project.
Finally, I think we need to give more importance to the new generation. We are one of the youngest regions in the world. Let's think of the new generation, let's think of the indigenous population, and let's give a special priority to development for women.
I think all that fits in with your committee. And we thank you very much for giving us this opportunity.
The Chairman: Thank you very much for those comments, which were very helpful. As you said, we have had a long-standing interest in your area, and of course many of us have people who come to our country from that area and are familiar with many of the problems.
Is there anyone else who would like to make a presentation at this time? Or we could go directly to questions, whichever you prefer.
Are there any questions?
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien (Laval East): Welcome everyone and thank you for agreeing to take part in our discussions.
Central America, which yesterday was home to military regimes, is comprised of small states experiencing the birth pains of democracy under very harsh economic conditions. Your consultative committee is seeking, I believe, to improve this situation.
I am especially concerned about one issue, but perhaps I will come back to it later. Firstly, I think Father Gorostiaga gave an overall and rather general view of the PAR program. For my own benefit and for the benefit of certain committee members, could you give us a concrete idea of what kind of work you do in the field? I was going over the CIDA and PAR programs. They espouse broad ideas, principles and objectives, but in concrete terms, what do you actually do? What kind of concrete achievements have you realized? Who exactly is involved?
You spoke earlier of the importance that should be awarded to the younger generation and to women. To what extent do women participate in the projects that you develop? I would like a clear picture of what exactly it is you do in the region of Central America.
.1545
My second question is in a somewhat different vein. It is a fact that the IMF has imposed programs and structural adjustment policies in most of the countries that you represent. It is also a fact that the casting aside of old development models has resulted in enormous social costs. This brings me to the whole issue of poverty and also to the drug problem because as everyone well knows, Central America is a region in which the drug culture has flourished.
I am not blaming Central America for the drug problem, because the demand originating from northern countries and the United States and Europe is a problem which also must be addressed. To my mind, there are two facets to the drug problem. On the one hand, there is the problem of the drug producers and on the other hand, the problem of the drug users. I think each state has a role to play in resolving this problem.
Generally speaking, these are some of the questions that I wanted to put to you. However, I consider my first question to be the most important one, namely what kind of concrete projects are you carrying out?
Mr. Carrier: With your permission, Mr. Chairman, we will ask our regional director to make a brief presentation on the projects that have been carried out and on those under development. In total, there are six projects. We will try to summarize them briefly in the space of a few minutes.
[English]
Mr. Carlos Manuel Echeverria (Regional Director, PAR Program, Costa Rica, CRC SOGEMA): Thank you very much, Mr. President and messieurs et mesdames les députés.
I will try to be very brief in explaining the projects that we are already financing, and the ones for which we will be signing contracts very soon. But first allow me to provide a very brief framework as introduction.
First, I would like to reiterate the regional character of the project in this program, the PAR program. Canada is placing a lot of faith in backing up the commitment of the Central American presidents and parliaments in going for regionalization. There is a big push in Central America to promote more regional integration in order to be more competitive and to solve social and economic problems in a better way, using economies of scale.
In every instance this project must have a Canadian transfer of technology. It is a program that seeks to have a private or public Canadian institution - or a group of them in consortia - in every project, becoming involved in Central America. So there is a strategic element involved in that.
And of course gender equity and environmental considerations are key in every single project financed under this program. This is one of the most important Canadian tools to promote regional integration.
At present we have approved and are already working on three projects. The first one involves the Central American Federation of Industrial Chambers. Ninety percent of its membership is small and medium-sized enterprises.
The Chairman: Excuse me for just a moment. Are these the projects described in the brochure?
Mr. Echeverria: Yes, sir.
A voice: But described very briefly.
Mr. Echeverria: Very briefly.
The Chairman: I just wanted to alert members to the -
Mr. Echeverria: I will not refer to the whole sheet of paper, because that would get very involved, but I will just try to give a very brief perspective.
The Central American Federation of Private Chambers, which brings together about.... Well, the industrial enterprises in Central America, of which most - 90% - are small and medium-sized enterprises.... Medium size in Central America means between 20 and 100 employees; small is from five to 20 employees; and the micro-enterprise is five employees or fewer.
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This program links up with APRO, the Association of Provincial Research Organizations in Canada, which has branches and associated members in all Canadian provinces. The idea is to develop a network similar to APRO in Central America, to assist Central American enterprises in their modernization efforts. That should be accomplished in 13 months. We should have a resource in that respect.
We are following up the initial investment made by IDRC, which will see to the funding too. That is the first project. I will just describe it very briefly.
The result will be a network of assistance centres in Central America linked up with a network in Canada. It will promote links between Canadian and Central American enterprises.
This is very strategic when you see this in the context of hemispheric cooperation in the Americas. Canada, of course, has a great interest too in having its enterprises linked up for competitive reasons - not only for market-oriented reasons, but for competitive reasons. This is because you can achieve a lot of complementarity between Canada and Central America.
The second project is implemented by a Central American consortium, in which you have the participation of an indigenous people association. You have the participation of the Cooperative Confederation. So we are hitting the equity aspect.
You have the participation of the small farmers association, under a consortium headed by the Inter-American Institute for Agricultural Cooperation, which is headquartered in Costa Rica, as I am sure the distinguished members of the committee know.
They are working in partnership with a very impressive Canadian consortium, headed by Agriteam Canada, which is a consortium from Alberta. They are heading up the consortium that includes the Canadian Grains Council, the Canadian Grain Commission, the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool, and the Commodity Exchange in Winnipeg. These are working together to help Central Americans develop a commodity exchange system in Central America.
This is most important, especially for the small farmers, who, in most cases at present, are not getting the best possible deal from the middlepersons who are buying from them. So this program specifically hits an area that is very important.
I didn't mention that the Canadian Ministry of Agriculture is also part of this group.
This very impressive group is already making a very practical, technological input. For example, it is helping Central Americans develop norms and standards and distribution units, and it is helping the exchanges in every country develop a good operational framework.
This is one of the areas in which Canada has more competitive advantages in the world: the production of agricultural products, its commercialization, and the development of systems to make the process more efficient and more equitable to all.
The third project involves, from the Canadian side, Gestion Norsud, a consulting firm located in Montreal, Quebec. GNS is working in collaboration with FOLADE, which is the Latin American Development Fund, headquartered in Central America - specifically in Costa Rica - and with the Latin American NGO association.
.1555
Basically what we are promoting there is helping FOLADE and ALOP, that control financial resources, develop better systems to make rural small and medium-sized enterprises more efficient so they can become creditworthy customers of the banking system. They are working in collaboration with their own local institutions in each of the countries, in this case, including Panama.
As you know, Panama is not a member of the Central American Common Market. Nevertheless, Panamanian entities can be targeted to regional entities through the membership.
Now, those are the three projects we have in operation right now. They involve a contribution of about $2.8 million Canadian.
We have in the pipeline, as they say in CIDA, three very interesting projects, which basically aim to promote participation in civil society, economic actors in the civil society, representative entities at the regional level that participate in a better way in the regional process.
As I am sure you know, Central America has developed a system of regional entities that are working together with economic, social and political components working at the same time. In order to strengthen democracy, to develop equitable economic structures, it is very important to give a voice - an enlightened voice, I should say - to all sectors of society.
Within the developed groups there is the organ of the integration system, called the consultative committee. This gives all regional entities representing unions, indigenous groups, cooperatives, farmers, big entrepreneurs, small entrepreneurs, etc. - all different kinds of groups - a chance to participate.
We have one project over there, which has the Canadian service for overseas students and trainees as a counterpart, involving the trade and law centre at the University of Ottawa and Carleton University. Their basic contribution is going to be to help Central Americans better understand the meaning, the instruments, the process of what it means to negotiate, to develop and be a part of a free trade agreement, which is the objective established for Latin America from here to the year 2005.
This is going to be very important for unions, cooperatives, indigenous people, for all these groups and even for big business, which in the case of Central America is relatively small when you compare it with big business in Canada, the United States, Mexico, Brazil, etc. They are going to gain efficiency in terms of management, and the ability to master NAFTA and free trade agreement terminology. It will give the unions and others the possibility to make a better contribution when they are working vis-à-vis public sector entities in charge of negotiating these treaties. That is the will and the objective there.
In the second project of the second group, which is supposed to be approved at this opportunity, we are helping the regional secretariat, SICA, the Central American Integration System, develop SICANet.
SICANet is an electronic system that will allow consultative committee members of the civil society, economic actors, regional representative organizations to link up among themselves for better coordination. It will also help build consensus and better coordination and communication with regional official entities, so they know what is going on and they know how to come to the party before the party takes place. That is not happening now, and this is very important to deepen and strengthen the democratic processes already going on in Central America. This is going to benefit all civil society, all the members of the consultative committee.
.1600
The last program, which is not the least important - all of them are important, but one of them had to be the last - is one in which the responsible Central American group is headed by the Central America University Superior Council, which brings together all the public sector universities.
We are very keen about this project because this is an educational program. PAR is a program for the transfer of values. We are transferring Canadian values.
As another Central American honoured to be working with a Canadian firm on behalf of CIDA, I am very proud because Canada is at the top of the world in the index of human development considerations. That is not a coincidence; that is not through chance. It is a reality, because Canadian values are very important and very positive. And in the case of Central America, Canada can make a very good contribution.
So that is why working with the universities is a very strong and important factor for PAR, because of the educational context. This is basically an educational thing, a technological transfer program, financed by Canadian resources.
This is a project that is going to involve four Central American entities. As I said, they are: CSUCA, the secretariat of the universities, which is heading it up; Inforpress, which is a very reliable Central American regional newsletter, published every week; CRIES, which is a research and communication centre in the Caribbean and Central America that developed its own electronic network, Nicarao, many years ago; and CODEHUCA, the Central American human rights commission.
The idea here is to develop assistance, through which civil society, economic actors, representative entities at the regional level, will be able to get updated information via electronic means too, because travelling in Central America for meetings is very expensive and is not practical.
Via an electronic system they are going to get information produced by Inforpress. CRIES, the centre through Nicarao, is going to carry the information. The entities will receive it, and the universities will analyse what needs to be analysed, and then, through Nicarao - through CRIES again - send the information again.
It's a very ambitious program financed through Canadian cooperation. The Canadian partner is CCCI, the Conseil canadien pour la coopération internationale, located in Quebec.
This is more or less it. As you see, we are stressing the equity program. We are stressing Canadian participation. We are transferring Canadian technology, which is meaningful, and in areas where Canada has definitely developed very valuable skills.
And the program goes right through the entities, through the consultative committee entities, the regional civil society.... It goes down all the way, to the bottom of society. This is the best way to promote equity, more opportunity, more information and the opportunity of being part of the regional integration process.
I am sure our colleagues will be glad to add information. Thank you, Mr. President.
The Chairman: Thank you. Mrs. Gaffney had a question.
Mrs. Gaffney (Nepean): Yes.
The Chairman: It was a very good explanation of the project, and I'm sure you want to follow up on that.
Mrs. Gaffney: I think so.
Welcome to you, coming to Canada. I have been to two of the countries in Central America, El Salvador and Guatemala, on two different occasions.
.1605
I know you didn't get the chance to respond to the women's side of the question Madame Debien asked, but I was with then Canadian Ambassador Dickson, along with Rigoberta Menchu, when we travelled to the Mexico-Guatemala border when the first of the Mayans were coming back to Guatemala, and were going into their resettlement areas. One of things I was concerned about was the quality of the land. Very small plots of land were being given out, and the quality of the land was really not very good.
Now, I'm pleased to see that you're getting into agriculture, and you're trying to improve upon that. So my first question was with regard to how the Mayans are doing. Do they have freedom of movement that they never had before?
The next question has to do with this: at meetings with the business community in Guatemala City they expressed grave concern that Mexico would not allow them to be part of the NAFTA agreement. The main reason was that they would not allow Guatemalan produce to cross the Gulf of Mexico and into the United States. I wonder if that is still in force, or if there has been some agreement with the Mexican police.
The third thing has to do with the Salvadoran women I met with at the time. I would say that most of those women had lost husbands and sons, and were left all on their own, with no education, because the civil war had gone on all those years. What has been done for those women and their children to improve their quality of life in El Salvador? I'm sure the same thing has happened in Guatemala too.
I've given brief questions; I hope I can get a brief answer.
The Chairman: Three brief answers to three brief questions.
[Translation]
Ms Mirna Lievano De Marquez (Director, Superior School of Economy and Business, El Salvador): Mr. Chairman, I will answer several questions and give you a more general perspective of things. Central America has been a region in transition. The most positive aspect of this transition is the fact that the region has moved from a state of war to a state of peace. We have made some progress in the economic and political fields but more progress remains to be made in other areas, the most important being the social sector. It is critical that everyone participate in this economic and social process.
To answer your questions, I would just like to say that in El Salvador's case more particularly, business people have understood that we are building a new country. Everyone is working and it is normal to see everyone working in the political and economic life of the country. We are witnessing a new beginning.
You mentioned the serious problem of family break-ups which is still prevalent today because many people have either died or moved to the United States or to Canada. There is a large Salvadoran community living here and in other Central American countries.
Many families survive on very modest incomes and many women head up households and support their families, both economically and emotionally. El Salvador is one country in Central America which offers many opportunities and which seems more open than in the past.
I believe we must now focus our attention on the education system. Education opens new doors and women can participate at all levels. In my opinion, education is critical. For example, women in El Salvador now receive a well-rounded education, which was not the case in the past.
You also spoke about the land issue. This is one of the biggest problems facing the region. In countries like El Salvador and Guatemala where programs to restore peace were developed, the land issue was very important in terms of bringing about peace. In El Salvador, specific measures were adopted to give land to former guerilla or army fighters in order to secure peace in the country.
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In Guatemala's case, I know that some agreements have been hammered out and I will letMr. Aitkenhead tell you more about this.
[English]
Mrs. Gaffney: Can someone respond to the question on the Gulf of Mexico? Is that restriction still there, or were we being told the truth - I don't know - at the time?
Mr. Richard Aitkenhead Castillo (Representative of the President of the Republic of Guatemala, Responsible for the Coordination of International Cooperation for Peace, Regional Initiatives Support Program, Guatemala City): I would like to answer your question by saying that the process of the return of the refugees that Guatemala had in Mexico has been an ongoing process during the last four or five years, and has been increasing the number of people who are returning to Guatemala.
Right now the peace process is progressing. The Mexican government gives immigration status to the people. They can choose now if they want to return to Guatemala, or if they want to remain in Mexico as immigrants. The ones who still are on the Mexican side are around 10,000 to 15,000 people. The rest have been coming back to Guatemala during the last year.
They have been given land from the government in order to start their productive development. At the beginning there were some problems with the quality of land and with the technical and financial assistance they were getting. Partially it was because at that time there was still a lot of confrontation inside the country, and from the refugees' or government's point of view, some of the lands that were being selected were more looked at with the strategic idea of where they were located in order to try to prevent future confrontations.
That has passed, and now they can select the more productive land that is available in the regions where they were before they left Guatemala. The process is an ongoing one that is giving them more opportunities.
Secondly, we have been trying to develop what would be the peace implementation program that would give what we say are two kinds of different development opportunities to those communities. The first ones are related to what we call social human development, socially oriented programs. These would give them the basic needs: infrastructure, water supply, sanitation, roads, electricity.
Then there are the second ones. During the negotiation of the peace process we have agreed to start a land fund that would give access to land to the indigenous population, and also would have some financial and technical support.
So it's a process that has been ongoing. During the last six months we have been able to sign two of the peace agreements that are very important. These are the social-economic and agrarian situation peace agreement, and the peace agreement we signed at the last moment, the peace agreement that calls for strengthening the civil society and the new role of the army in a democratic society.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
[Translation]
Do you have a question, Mr. Nunez?
[English]
Mr. Nunez (Bourassa): Mr. Chairman, allow me to say a few words at this time to welcome our friends from Central America, and after that I will ask a question in French.
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[Translation]
[The member addresses the witness in his own language.]
I must congratulate you on the work you are doing in Central America and also congratulate Quebec organizations that are cooperating with this region. I have been critical at times of the cuts to Canadian development assistance, particularly when developing countries in Latin and Central America were involved.
You receive approximately $10 million for a program over a five-year period. Is this an adequate level of funding when compared, for example, to the assistance provided by the United States or other European countries? How do Canadian aid levels compare?
What can we do? I don't think Canada should reduce its international aid because it is necessary. NAFTA alone is not enough.
Mr. Bédard: Thank you. Obviously, the level of Canadian funding is low if we compare it to the amounts set aside by the United States or Japan for Central America or some other country.
However, when I mentioned the cuts that we were planning for next year, I appreciated hearing our friends from Central America tell us that they understood that this would certainly affect the amount of cooperation they received. I have to say that they stress the quality of the cooperation between Canada and Central America rather than the quantity. The quality has always been there. The honourable member mentioned earlier that Central America had experienced a period of transition, and that Canada had remained a presence throughout the war years. Its presence may have been low- keyed, but it did ensure a presence nevertheless and this was appreciated.
We continue to appreciate Canada's presence and I have been told that it will certainly be possible to maintain the quality of the cooperation even though funding levels may be lower than they were previously. They are not saying that we should continue to make cuts. That's not at all that they are saying. However, they did stress the fact that Canada did maintain a good level of cooperation with Central America.
Mr. Nunez: Your comments are not reassuring. Are you saying there are going to be more cuts?
Mr. Bédard: We all know that there will be more cuts. They have been advised of the situation and we have made every effort to be open. What we are trying to do is to see how we can offset these cuts by ensuring quality and perhaps by providing other types of support.
This cooperation, while essential, need not always be official. I think everyone realizes this fact.
The quality of the cooperation is something I stress a great deal.
Mr. Nunez: Thank you very much.
Mr. Carrier: Mr. Chairman, I would simply like to add to what Mr. Bédard said and mention that one of the features of the PAR program is to seek out new resources and develop sustainable ties while ensuring that in the case of each project, a Canadian partner lends some support.
The feeling is that by proceeding in this manner, linkages will be established outside the framework of the direct cooperation resources between Canadian and Central American institutions. One component of the Canadian cooperation strategy is to extend support for developing countries to private companies and NGOs with a view to maximizing resources in the field of cooperation.
[English]
The Chairman: Madam Acosta, would you like to make some comments?
Ms Irma Acosta De Fortin (Coordinator, International Development Corporation, Tegucigalpa, Regional Initiatives Support Program): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
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In relation to Central America, it is true that we have gone through a process of civil war in two countries. Peace in Guatemala is just coming, but our democracies are still fragile.
We have now many armed people who are involved in activities that are not peaceful. They have committed robberies, kidnappings and all kinds of crimes because we still have many consequences of the period of war we have been involved in.
Central America is still a place of concern for other countries. Whether we officially have democracies or officially have peace, it is true that we still have many problems.
Madam Debien asked about women in Central America, and you also asked about women in Central America. Women are the people most affected by poverty in Central America. AsMrs. Lievano De Marquez told you, there is a large percentage of women as the head of families in Central America.
We need to educate women. We need to increase their income. The pilot program through problems of small enterprises development is important, because it is also mostly women who are involved in small enterprises in Central America. You find more women in the informal sector of the economy. You find more women in the small enterprises, so they are very important and the pilot program is doing something towards that. Also, one of the new policies is to prevent poverty that is affecting more women.
The Chairman: Madam Debien.
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien: I believe you anticipated my question since you have answered it in part. Of the three main projects under way within the framework of the PAR program, two are geared to small businesses in rural areas. A regional exchange system has been established for agricultural products and for support services to small rural businesses.
Currently, one of CIDA's major success stories in Africa is the emphasis placed on creating small businesses belonging to women. Agricultural enterprises headed up by women in Africa have been quite successful.
A similar phenomenon is occurring in Asia-Pacific countries where again, CIDA programs have had a major impact on small businesses, regardless of their nature, geared to women. The success rates have been rather remarkable.
You answered my question in part when you stated that the emphasis seems to be on training women and in particular on helping businesses headed by women or, at the very least, businesses where women are involved at the management level. I find this reassuring because it tells me that CIDA is maintaining some uniformity in so far as its objectives and women's issues are concerned.
The other question that I raised earlier and to which I have not yet received an answer concerns the whole drug problem.
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My question has to do with the production of drugs and our problem here in the northern hemisphere, namely drug consumption. Could someone give me an overview of the situation and of the battle that governments are waging against this problem which is global in scope, that is not merely confined to Central America.
My second question concerns the nature of the work that we are doing here in committee. The Foreign Affairs and International Trade Committee set up a subcommittee, the Subcommittee on Sustainable Human Development, which is chaired by Mr. English and on which we all sit. Among the terms of reference of this subcommittee is a mandate to examine child labour and the exploitation of child labour. Our hearings have focused primarily on this subject for the past several weeks and we will be issuing a report within the next few months.
I would like someone to comment on this problem of child labour and the use of child labour, because a distinction must be drawn between child labour and the exploitation of child labour. These are two clearly different matters. There are children who work as a form of apprenticeship. I am not alluding to this situation, but in particular to the exploitation of child labour. What is the situation with respect to child labour in Central America?
I therefore have two questions, one about the drug problem and another about child labour exploitation.
[English]
The Chairman: Before you answer that question, Mrs. Gaffney wanted to make a comment too, and then perhaps we are going to have to wrap it up, because the next delegation is going in, and you can respond to all of the questions.
Mrs. Gaffney.
Mr. Gaffney: One of my original three questions wasn't responded to, and I don't know whether it's maybe because it isn't....
The business community in Guatemala City had indicated a very grave concern that they were being blocked by the Mexican government from shipping produce or food up the Gulf of Mexico and into the United States, that you had to go a far more circuitous route, and the indication from the business community was that Mexico would block entry into the NAFTA agreement, that Guatemala and El Salvador and other Central American countries would be blocked. Can you comment on that? Is it true, or is it not true? Do you know anything about that?
The Chairman: There's quite a range of questions here. Someone could respond to the first -
Mrs. Gaffney: Just quickly, yes. To me it's a serious charge, if it's true.
Mr. Aitkenhead Castillo: What the business community in Guatemala was complaining about is the problems that Central America as a whole, and especially El Salvador, has as the new neighbour of NAFTA, in terms of it not having the access to get into that market. You're going to start to lose investment that was going to the region and is going now to Mexico and other places.
Secondly, they are having some problems related to the transportation of their goods and services, especially their goods that go through the Mexican territory. But it is not that Mexico is preventing Central America from coming into NAFTA. That has to be a joint decision among the three members of NAFTA. On the other side, the Central American countries are negotiating with Mexico, a bilateral free trade agreement.
But the main concern of countries such as the Central American ones is that to be out of so important a trade agreement as NAFTA is a very high risk, in terms of investment and in terms of increasing trade. That's one of the reasons that in Central America we've seen Canada playing a major role in the future of the region. One side of the region is the neighbour of NAFTA now and we will need to work together with the three NAFTA members in order to have some kind of agreement that gives us access to these markets that have been, especially the U.S. market and the Mexican market, our traditional export markets.
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Mrs. Gaffney: So you're working on it. Thank you.
The Chairman: Father.
Reverend Gorostiaga: In relation to the drug problem, I consider this project is one of the best Canadian projects in the region, but it's a drop in the sea. It's a marginal project yet. What I consider most important in this project is the connection between the civil society in Central America and the civil society in Canada, which can create a multiplying effect on Canadian official support. I think this is the key factor.
In relation to drugs - and you mentioned the structural adjustment - the policies of the structural adjustment in the region have been very simplistic in the sense that by creating micro-balances you can create growth. I think that is not enough. Then the human thing, the high levels of unemployment, in Nicaragua it is 60%. You will have a drug problem in Central America without doubt and I am talking as a rector of a university.
The drug problem is an increasing problem in the region. Central America is becoming not only a platform but also a producing area of drugs. We have a $140 billion demand in the United States. Our sugar and banana prices are going down. So you will have drug problems in Central America. This is a free market, my friends.
We have to do something more serious than just a structural adjustment. I think we have to emphasize employment and equity creation in order to have economic growth in a permanent base.
Another point that is extremely important is child prostitution, not only women's prostitution. This is basically due to the lack of employment and the lack of hope in the new generation. These problems have not yet been touched. We are just overcoming war, we are moving towards a fragile democracy, but this social problem is a tragedy. I don't know if this citizen insecurity is as bad as war but it's close to war. This project is very important but it's just a drop.
What I consider extremely important is that Central America was very important in Canada in the 1980s. Now Central America is not in any political or economic agenda here. Peace has to be more important for Canada than war. Then the connection between the civil society in Central America and here in Canada is the heart of this project.
If this project can do that, establish connections between universities, between technological institutions, between women's organizations here, between human rights people here, linking these dynamics of our civil society, this project is a success even though it is small. It may change the rest of the projects, emphasizing the equity and the genuine democratic progress. We need to give Central America a new visibility in the Canadian civil society. This project tries to do that too.
The Chairman: Thank you for those very eloquent words. I'd like to thank all of you for participating.
[Translation]
I want to thank Mr. Bédard and Mr. Carrier for their participation.
[English]
I think you've made it clear why Central America is important for Canada. For us, as committee members, it's certainly very good to hear how useful our projects are, how important they can be in that region and how the Regional Initiatives Support Program is obviously a very effective program for CIDA. Thank you for your participation today.
We'll take a brief five-minute break and then the other group from the Philippines can come.
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The Chairman: I'd like to call the meeting to order, please. I'd like to apologize for the slight delay, but we have some extra time because the vote has been delayed 15 minutes. The bells will be at 5:45 p.m. and the vote will be at 6 p.m.
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I'm pleased to have with us today, from the Caucus of Development NGO Network of the Philippines, three people from the Phillipines. Dr. Pagtakhan will be hoping to join us later. He's been called away for a vote, unfortunately. He told us last week of your arrival in Canada and we're delighted to be able to welcome you here today.
With our guests we have Katherine Pearson, who's the advocacy officer for the Canadian Council for International Cooperation. I wonder, Ms Pearson, if you would like to introduce our guests and talk about their work and about the presentation today.
Ms Katherine Pearson (Advocacy Officer, Canadian Council for International Cooperation, Caucus of Development NGO Network of the Philippines): We have planned that Dan is going to start.
I'd just like to say that the reason the CCIC is here is that we've had a long history of connection with this organization, CODE-NGO, through a group called the Philippines-Canada Human Resource Development Project, which was a project that brought Canadian NGOs and Filipino NGOs together around development programs in the Philippines and was funded by CIDA. It was a longstanding initiative. So there's been quite a long relationship between the Philippines and Filipino NGOs and Canadian NGOs.
I'll pass the word over to Dan.
The Chairman: Thank you. Karen Tanada will speak second. She is the chair of the Women's Action Network for Development. Then the co-chair of the Philippine Council for Sustainable Development, Carezon Julino-Soliman, will speak.
Mr. Dan Songco (National Coordinator, Caucus of Development of NGO Network of the Philippines): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. We're very happy to be here this afternoon. We're glad we were given this opportunity to address the subcommittee.
The Philippine delegation that is with us here this afternoon, aside from the three of us and also our colleagues at the back, came here to Canada to make a report on the Philippines-Canada human resources development program that was supported by CIDA. It has ended very recently and we have come here to make a report of the positive achievements we've had in the project.
We were told by Mr. Pagtakhan that there was a meeting of the subcommittee that we could address on child labour exploitation. We would like to speak a little about our experiences on that and at the same time address some of the related issues we have experienced in our country as well as in the region.
You will find that many of the things we will say are very similar to the presentation earlier about the Latin American countries because indeed the situation in the Phillipines is very similar to the situation in the countries represented earlier.
I'd like to ask my colleagues to start with our presentation.
Ms Carezon Julino-Soliman (Co-Chair, Philippine Council for Sustainable Development, from the Caucus of Development NGO Network of the Philippines): Good afternoon. In the presentation, we'll speak about the situation of child labour in the Philippines. My colleague Karen will speak about what we are doing about it - the government and civil society. Dan will talk about the recommendations we would like the committee to consider.
There are 2.4 million Filipino children, from 5 to 17 years old, out of a total population of 6 to 8 million. Today, the estimate of UNICEF and the Department of Labour and Employment on child labour numbers 5 to 7 million working children to include both those 10 to 17 years old and those below 10 years old.
Children are working in practically all sectors, a majority in the agricultural sector, 20% to 25% in services and the rest in industry. Most of the rural and agricultural child labour is unpaid. Children work in the fields, together with their parents and siblings, but only the adults get paid. If they get wages, it is in the range of $1 Canadian or $2.50 per day.
As most children are elementary or high school students, they work only on weekends, for four to six hours a day. But during harvest or fishing seasons, they're likely to be absent from their classes in order to work.
Most urban child labour is found in services and sales and in industries involving home-based piece-work. The average daily rate is $1.50 to $2 Canadian a day. Children who go to school engage in home-based or street occupations before and after school, but out-of-school children do full-time work, putting in 12 hours a day.
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Child workers are found in hazardous work like pyrotechnic production, wood varnishing, and pesticide and fertilizer application, to mention a few. Among the most exploitative and deplorable aspects of child labour problems are: child recruitment in distant areas, which means they go to the provinces and recruit children; bonded child labour; illegal detention and involuntary servitude; food and shelter not fit for humans; denial of workers' rights to child workers; and cases of maltreatment and violence.
Street occupations and trafficking of children are directly related to child prostitution, with an estimate of up to 300,000 children involved today. The number of children who are part of the syndicates of child prostitution is also very much connected to drug dependency or substance abuse in the streets.
Children have also been displaced from their communities for some of the following reasons. Children from communities of indigenous people have been displaced especially because of mining explorations. Canada ranks as a key player in these mining explorations today among other industries. Rural children have been displaced because of land use conversion from agriculture to industrial or speculative purposes. Urban children are displaced because of eviction of informal settlers, especially to clean up the city for the coming Asia Pacific Economic Council, or APEC, meeting in metro Manila. This has caused children trauma and forced them to live and beg on the streets.
One image I would like to share with you is from a story I know about one child. This child has not been able to speak since the demolition a month ago because of the violence he witnessed.
The majority of Filipino children experience adulthood early as they help their families to survive. The legislated minimum wage is currently about $8 Canadian a day. The minimum cost of living for a family of six was estimated two years ago to be $12 Canadian per day. While in the past women made up for the lack of basic needs with their unpaid work and became the safety nets for their families, the burden is now shared with their children.
This situation exists because of the thrust of the government to become a newly industrialized country. It espouses full trade and investment liberalization, which causes the marginalized sectors to be further impoverished because they are pushed out of the mainstream economic activity. This also leads to social and political problems as well.
Ms Karen Tanada (Chair, Women's Action Network for Development, Caucus of Development NGO Network of the Philippines): I'll be speaking about what is being done in the Philippines regarding this situation.
The Philippine government is a signatory to various international conventions, including the Convention on the Rights of the Child and ILO Convention No. 79, No. 90 and No. 138 requiring compliance with certain standards governing the employment of children.
The labour code of the Philippines sets the minimum age for admission to non-hazardous employment at 15 years of age. Therefore children 14 years and under are prohibited from employment unless they work under the direct supervision of their parents. However, monitoring and implementation of labour standards have been extremely weak, and this is not just in the case of child workers. Persons who have been arrested for illegal recruitment of children and for trafficking are easily released and are soon back at their trade.
Civil society groups in the Philippines, which include people's organizations, non-government organizations and community-based groups, have addressed the problem of child labour with a range of approaches.
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Some NGOs are involved in working directly with child workers to discourage them from exploitative situations and to provide alternative economic opportunities. Others have even undertaken rescue operations and rehabilitation of children. A few attempt to improve the safety and working conditions of children and to improve their productivity. The majority of civil society groups have worked for economic and political empowerment of communities to enable them to transform their poverty situation. Therefore, a very significant tract of Philippine civil society is advocacy work along the following areas.
One would be improvement and implementation of labour standards on child labour, on trafficking and on other issues regarding children. Another major advocacy tract would be on the economic development policies of government to redirect them more towards sustainable development and equity in order to reduce the poverty that makes child labour necessary. This also involves discussion on trade and liberalization policies in the regional and global context.
In these Philippine civil society initiatives, CIDA support has also been crucial. CIDA assistance of $15 million Canadian over seven years to the Philippines-Canada human resource development program has substantially supported the capability building of people's organizations and non-government organizations, and has resulted in the development of very strong national and local NGO coalitions.
Another program, the Philippine development assistance program, is also supported by CIDA. It has among other contributions helped to provide socio-economic alternatives to communities, including a central loan fund project for sustainable agriculture.
The CIDA NGO fund for women, or DIWATA, has supported more than 200 projects for women's empowerment and strengthened two major networks of the women's movement. Therefore, Canadian support has already begun to impact on the Philippine situation by contributing to a strengthened and vibrant Philippine civil society.
We hope you may have the opportunity some day soon to visit the Philippines, and also see the effects and assess the possible negative or positive contributions of such partnerships.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
Mr. Songco: In this regard, Mr. Chairman, we'd like to present three recommendations for the consideration of the committee.
One is we believe CIDA should play a key role in addressing child labour exploitation, using the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child as a framework. It should continue to provide development assistance to both the civil society and governments in underdeveloped and developing countries. This support should help to build the capability of these civil societies and governments to respond to the growing problem of child labour exploitation as well as other social problems - these include unemployment, poverty and destruction of the environment - caused by unbridled trade and investment relations.
Second, we think Canada has an important opportunity to play a leadership role in ensuring trade and investments do not promote economic development at the expense of the environment and with heavy social costs to the poor, particularly in the Asia-Pacific region where intertrade and investment are rapidly increasing. Canada should use its rich experience in environmental protection and clean technology to define the parameters of economic growth.
Third, specifically as Canada hosts APEC next year, we urge the Canadian government to make sustainable development the theme of this hosting and to further strengthen the strong sustainable development language already present in the APEC leaders' declarations from Bogor to Osaka.
We ask you to support the Philippine civil society's call to highlight the need for greater concern for the environment, for social equity, for gender equality, for poverty reduction, and increased democratization amidst the liberalized trading regime. Philippine NGOs have linked up with Canadian NGOs to push this agenda in APEC. Through our efforts as Philippine NGOs, the Philippine government has agreed to support such an initiative, and we hope that Canada will also be able to do the same.
Thank you.
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The Chairman: Thank you very much.
Are there questions or comments?
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien: I have a question. You skipped over this subject very quickly and I did not understand very well.
First of all, I want to welcome you and thank you for taking part in our work.
Concerning a remark made by Mr. Songco at the start of his presentation, I would like him to clarify a number of things for us. You stated that indigenous children had been displaced because of the mining exploration in which Canada has played an important role. You made this statement without giving any details. I would appreciate it if you could elaborate further on this.
[English]
Mr. Songco: Yes, it was Ms Soliman who mentioned that. I think she would would be in the best position to elaborate on it.
Ms Julino-Soliman: We have a new mining act that opened our mineral reserves to many foreign companies. We know there are at least five to seven Canadian mining firms that have applied to do mining exploration. Such mining exploration means they would go to areas that are known as ancestral domains - these are similar to the lands of the native Indian populations here - and explore the possibility of establishing mines there. In the Philippines, civil society is helping the indigenous peoples' advocacy so that they can secure their right over the ancestral domains.
In the meantime, the exploration has begun. In that process of exploration, the companies are displacing communities of indigenous peoples because they set up camps. The tendency of the indigenous peoples' community is to go further up into the mountains from where they are. Many of these communities are located in the northern part of the Philippines, called the Cordillera Mountains, and in the southern part of the Philippines on Mindanao, which is the second-largest island in the Philippines.
We have a list of the Canadian firms that are doing exploration. If you're interested, we can furnish you a copy of that.
An hon. member: Thank you.
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien: My second question concerns the subject at hand, namely the legislation authorizing mineral exploration and enabling foreign companies to carry out prospecting. Does this legislation allow indigenous peoples to be displaced, or is it that they instinctively move because they are not comfortable with prospecting activities? Is there a provision in the legislation which prohibits the displacing of these peoples?
[English]
Ms Julino-Soliman: They are moving out automatically or instinctively because most of the tribes involved are non-confrontational tribes, except for those in the Cordillera area. There is nothing in the law that says they should move, but it's a consequence of the presence of the exploration.
Something is being done to respond to this situation, though. The tribal people themselves are organizing. There's a lobby in our House of Representatives, which is the legislative body in the Philippines, to legislate what they call the Ancestral Domain Bill to protect their rights. But the bill is proceeding slowly, and meanwhile the exploration is going on.
.1705
Mr. Godfrey (Don Valley West): I have two questions. Since the Marcos' departure, has the situation with regard to child labour worsened, either in absolute or relative terms? What do we know? Maybe we don't know. That would be the first question.
Ms Tanada: I believe the situation has worsened, not because of the departure -
Mr. Godfrey: No, I wasn't trying.... It was a date rather than a causality.
Ms Tanada: - but because of the new economic policies, the greater need for Philippine industries to compete with other Asian countries in garments and other industries. It is more this situation of needing to compete in the economic area that has brought an increase in child labour.
Mr. Godfrey: My second question really attempts to weave together the various themes. You've said that the greatest single factor has been international competition and the impact that's had on the labour situation. In order to solve the problem, to make a meaningful advance, how do you weight these factors: social attitudes, the whole society and its various forms; economic factors; and political will? Beyond what CIDA's doing in terms of what you may call an enabling environment, where are the real action points in Philippine society and government? Is the real action down at the municipal level, in the private sector, at the state level or at the national level?
I guess those are two questions wrapped up in one.
Mr. Songco: I'd like to start and maybe my colleagues would be able to add.
I will refer more to the second question, to say that we are now undergoing a process of decentralization from the national government to the local governments. We think the local government code, which is the source of that new initiative, is quite progressive in the sense that it decentralizes power, not only from the national government to the regional and provincial governments but even down to the village levels, where political structures have been set up, provided with resources and given the authority to govern.
In terms of the real action you are looking for, these decision-making processes are progressively being devolved down to the local village levels at the moment.
Mr. Godfrey: Does the fact that it's decentralizing make the job easier or tougher for you? Is there more or less will lower down?
Mr. Songco: It's both, actually. We as NGOs are involved in the process of decentralization ourselves, because while for the most part our advocacy has been related to the national government, now we will have to address both the national government and the local governments. Since so many decisions are being made at the local level, we will have to address that, but since macroeconomic policies and major political decisions could be made to wipe out local decisions, it's also quite important for us to be addressing these. So it has made our job quite difficult at this point.
Ms Tanada: On some concrete action to prevent the most exploitative cases of child labour, much could be done in terms of improving the monitoring and implementation of labour standards. But there's a big problem in the Philippines, because it's not only the issue of child labour but of labour in general and the labour of women.
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The labour inspection system is very weak. They say the minimum wage is only implemented in about 40% of those inspected, but the inspection rate is very low. So there needs to be a great improvement on that aspect. It needs advocacy work at the national level, at the Department of Labour, and at the local level. But the overall situation pushing our families and children to this situation also needs to be changed. Normally, Philippine society values children and education very highly. They would want children to be in school and have a good environment, but the economic situation has pushed children and women into drastic situations like overseas work and prostitution.
Mr. Godfrey: How aware of that particular fact is the general population? How aware is the media, for instance? Is it a big item, or does it rank lower down?
Ms Tanada: About which particular issue?
Mr. Godfrey: About child labour. Is it something that is a national scandal? Is it swept under the carpet, or does it occasionally appear in the newspapers?
Ms Julino-Soliman: I'd like to respond to that and to the question about key action.
Within the last six months we have had a series of media exposures of child labour exploitation and child prostitution. I think this was brought on by the partnership of civil society, UNICEF and a certain section or segment of the government branch that is in charge of this - the Department of Social Welfare and Development. Part of it had to do with the strong lobby for children's rights in the media over the last six months.
Is it a public scandal? It is beginning to be, but a large part of this will be.... The role of the media in this is very important. One of the issues when I left - just yesterday - is that the way child sex exploitation has been handled in the media is in question. A lot of abuse has been exposed over the last two weeks in that regard.
On the question about the key strategic action points at this stage, I think one is asset reform, which means that the resources that are controlled by a few segments of society should be reformed and redistributed to increase the capacity of our domestic market to be vibrant. In that way we are able to generate more jobs at the municipal and provincial level, because there is a market there. So we won't have to do two things: first, send men and women abroad, thereby leaving children in the care of relatives or grandparents, because that is the situation most overseas contract workers find themselves in; and second, so that we are not forced into global competitiveness by way of providing cheap labour. When we provide cheap labour to be globally competitive, that immediately means women and children at very substandard wages, if they're paid at all. If we can do asset reform with the political will that's needed, I think we can significantly address many of the problems we face.
What are we doing about it? At this point -
Mr. Godfrey: What are the assets that are being reformed? Are they agrarian or are they real property in the cities?
Ms Julino-Soliman: It should be agrarian - land. More and more coastal resources are being consolidated in the hands of a few. That should also be reformed. Because of the drive for ``newly industrialized country'' status, land speculation in the urban area has grown to unreasonable proportions. Our rates in land in the urban areas in the Philippines are comparable to prices in Tokyo and Hong Kong. I think this is really driving up more and more land consolidation into the hands of a few, making less and less land available for the majority of the population in the urban centres to live and have houses of their own - much less land where the house can stand.
.1715
These are the assets we're talking about when we talk about asset reform. The government does have a social reform agenda, but I think the partnership between government and the private sector, influenced by civil society, is an element we are trying to work out at this stage in Philippine history.
Mr. Godfrey: Very interesting. The notion of every society having its own web of connections and dynamics was very usefully illustrated by that last intervention. No one size seems to fit all in this issue.
The Chairman: Very true.
Further questions? Mrs. Gaffney.
Mrs. Gaffney: I too welcome you here today.
Looking at the population of the Philippines and what the population is of Canada, I guess you're about two and a half times our population. When I look at the three recommendations you'd like Canada to do, it's a pretty big order for a country that is much smaller population-wise than what yours is.
The first recommendation, obviously, is why we as a committee are sitting here. We are looking at child labour in different countries around the world, and we hope we can play a role in leading off preventing child labour in the world.
In your second one, that Canada should play a leadership role in ensuring that trade with the Philippines does not impact on the environment, I don't quite know how we could do this. Are you talking money? We're giving about $7 million per year. I think it was $50 million Canadian over seven years to the Philippines. Is it your suggestion that we should be providing more financial resources to the Philippines, or should we be looking at other ways? For instance, the mining community is having an impact on the environment and it's displacing people.
How do you suggest we do this?
Mr. Songco: The particular reference we made in this recommendation is for Canada to assist in strengthening the sustainable growth taking place at the moment. We know Canada has had strong programs in environmental protection. You have a lot of industries that promote clean technology, and that's a very well-advanced industry in Canada. We hope that can be promoted within the Asia-Pacific region.
Mrs. Gaffney: Through technical resources?
Mr. Songco: Through technical resources. At the same time, we're hoping Canada can help push for policies within the region that do not promote economic growth and result in more child exploitation or more damage of the environment. That's why we were suggesting that perhaps when APEC comes to Canada next year this might be a role Canada would like to play so that we can prevent precisely the kinds of problems we are facing at the moment.
Mrs. Gaffney: Okay.
Katherine, I'm going to put you on the spot, too. How do you, as the advocacy officer for the Canadian Council for International Cooperation, interact with these people?
Ms Pearson: I should first clarify that I might do advocacy, but my formal title is coordinator of the policy team of CCIC. We do policy development work to a significant extent. Some of that policy work is directed at Canadian non-governmental organizations and some of it is directed at the Canadian government.
The way in which we interact with the Philippines' NGOs or NGOs in other countries is that when there are issues - and many of the issues they are discussing in fact have some relevance to Canada or to other countries we're connected to - then we try to work jointly on developing policy positions either through doing research on particular areas - mining could be one, and sustainable development another - or, particularly at the multilateral level, through UN channels as well as with our own governments, to advance these policy positions in support of sustainable development.
Perhaps the closest or best example of that working relationship was UNCED. That's when the NGOs in the NGO forum first began to work together on issues related to sustainable development in I think a very concrete and systematic fashion. That relationship has evolved and developed since then.
.1720
There have been attempts to maintain those global NGO networks to work both multilaterally and nationally to have a greater impact. So we realize that we can't advance, in isolation, policy positions for sustainable development with our own governments if, at the multilateral level or in other countries, positions are being taken that are running in contradiction to the work we're doing.
So a good and systematic relationship has developed. More and more NGOs are working on common agendas in Washington and New York and in Geneva and elsewhere.
The Chairman: Madam Debien.
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien: I would like some information and perhaps I also have a comment to make. In the stores here in Quebec and undoubtedly in the other provinces, there are many clothing items that come from the Philippines. We often see ``Made in the Philippines'' on the labels. This is probably one of the sectors to which you referred earlier, namely the industrial sector.
There are three economic development sectors in the Philippines: the agricultural sector, the services sector and the industrial or manufacturing sector. Can you give us some idea of the level of exports from the Philippines to Canada, particularly as regards exports of textiles? I have mainly seen textile and clothing imports from the Philippines. Are children working in the garment industry there? In your opinion, what steps should be taken to deal with exporting businesses that exploit child labour?
[English]
The Chairman: Who would like to answer that question?
Mr. Songco: When you make reference to our exports to Canada, I believe it would be more in terms of garments rather than textiles. We do not have a very good textile -
[Translation]
Mrs. Debien: By textiles, I mean clothing items. I apologize, the word ``textile'' is a very general term. I'm talking about clothing, not about fabric by the metre.
[English]
Mr. Songco: We do have a very active garment industry. However, it is fast declining in the face of competition from Vietnam and China. For the most part, we know a significant proportion of our exports still could be attributed to garments.
Yes, we do know, in fact, that children and women are the biggest suppliers of labour for this industry. It is quite possible - and we have some figures with us - that this is one of the causes of great child labour abuse.
Ms Tanada: I don't think we have exact figures for the export of garments from the Philippines to Canada, but there would be more women involved in the formal garment factories. Much of the work is also being done on a home-based piece rate basis. This is where children help out in some of the less-skilled tasks. So there would still be more women involved in the garment industry, with children helping out.
Ms Julino-Soliman: Just to give you an image of what that means, in the Cordillera, where the indigenous peoples are well known for their good weaving, what happens is that the thread is brought to the village. The women work on the main weaving and the children do the portion where you need good eyes, because the older women find difficulty in working on the cutting or in the threading. That's one area wherein the children are used on a home-based basis.
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The other area is in packing and repacking. That means they're in charge of putting together all of whatever pieces of the garment are done, because sometimes what they do is in a chain. One village does all the embroidering of the top portion. Another village does the hemming of the skirt, and it's brought to one factory where you put it all together.
That's when you get the baby dresses. I think much of what we bring here are either children's dresses and/or baby dresses where you do a lot of hand embroidery.
I think we would like to support more of the positive incentives for fair trade practices and for clean and safe environments rather than the more negative sanctions for such working conditions.
The Chairman: You said earlier, Mr. Songco, that with more economic growth we get more child labour. You also referred to the overseas contract workers, which suggests a labour shortage that was characteristic of the Philippines in the past.
The Philippines until fairly recently was not one of the tigers. It had very low growth rates. The growth rates in the last two years are right at the top in Asia, I think 7% and 8%. Is this creating more child labour? What is happening to the overseas contract workers? Are they finding work now in the Philippines?
Mr. Songco: May I correct that impression, Mr. Chair? We did not mean economic growth contributing to child labour, we meant uncontrolled economic growth. You see, the more economic activity, the more the Philippines wants to compete in the global market, the more it resorts to cheaper labour. This is where these kinds of exploitation take place.
The Chairman: But what we're seeing now in the Philippines then you would say is uncontrolled economic growth.
Mr. Songco: Yes, Mr. Chair, that's exactly what we are experiencing.
With regard to overseas contract workers, we believe that the number is growing at the moment. So we are experiencing a phenomenon, as I believe Canada is, that is referred to as jobless growth. The economy is improving but unemployment is not decreasing; as a matter of fact it has been increasing slightly over the past two years.
The Chairman: We have a Liberal majority here, so you'll get an argument on that.
Mr. Songco: Okay, I'm sorry. So that's the situation at the moment.
The Chairman: Ms Tanada.
Ms Tanada: In fact, it seems that even our national economic development authority has attributed part of this phenomenal growth to the remittances of overseas workers, which is $16 billion, I think.
Mr. Songco: A large percentage of our GNP is contributed by remittances from overseas contract workers.
Ms Julino-Soliman: I think part of the challenge for us is how the remittances can be used in fact to make the manufacturing sector be more vibrant, because at the moment these remittances that are brought in are actually being channelled back into either service-oriented work, which means more recruitment agencies so that more people can go out, instead of enterprises that can make the rural economies in our area vibrant. So that's a challenge I think we need to address.
But part of what we're saying is that because of globalization we would really encourage what Karen was referring to earlier as incentive-based interventions from trading partners. So if our garments or the dresses that come from the Philippines are tainted by exploitative practices by those who manufacture them, instead of punitive actions, we see positive or incentive-based interventions so that we will encourage more of our medium and small-scale industries to grow, because that kills them immediately and the big ones continue. The big ones are the ones that tend to be more exploitative, not just as far as children are concerned but also towards labour in general.
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The Chairman: Thank you very much. If there are no more questions, I'd like to thank you for these very fine presentations. It's been very helpful for our work on child labour and also in other areas that we've been studying. Thank you for coming here and thank you to Ms Pearson for accompanying you. We've learned a lot from what you've told us today. Thank you very much.
Ms Julino-Soliman: Thank you very much.
The Chairman: The meeting is adjourned.