[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Thursday, September 26, 1996
.1533 
[Translation]
The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Ouno): Honourable senators and members, there is a quorum. Pursuant to Standing Order 89 of the Senate Standing Orders and to paragraph 106(1) and 106(2) of the Standing Orders of the House, the first item on the agenda is the election of the Co-Chairs. I am ready to receive motions to that effect.
[English]
Mr. Ringma (Nanaimo - Cowichan): Before you accept the actual motions, I have something to say on the motions themselves to make sure the procedure is correct.
The Joint Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Knowles): I'm not sure if Mr. Ringma is aware, but we are really not in a position to -
Mr. Ringma: I have two points and I'll tell you why I'm making them. One is to make sure we elect a Senate member as co-chair first and a House of Commons member second. I make that point because at the first committee meeting I sat at here in 1994, we didn't do that. We then had to stop proceedings and send to the Senate. It was not well done. Point two is to make sure that in these nomination motions we have an anglophone or allophone and a francophone as the co-chairs. The reason I make -
Mr. Allmand (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce): On a point of order, I've been at these meetings for many years and we've never entertained this kind of discussion prior to the election of the officers. When we nominate people, surely we can make the kinds of arguments Mr. Ringma is making for anglophones, francophones, allophones, other phones, whatever. I don't think it's in order. You people are not chairing the meeting for these other things -
Mr. Ringma: Excuse me, I would like to address that and tell you why it is in order. I'm sure that although the esteemed member from Notre-Dame-de-Grâce is a much more experienced parliamentarian than I, he has not attended the number of committee meetings that I have in the last couple of years where the procedure for motions is so hard on the heels - bang, bang - that there's no discussion permitted. That's why I'm trying to make two -
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Knowles): The clerks are only permitted to receive motions and to deal with the motions.
.1535
Mr. Ringma: Exactly. But through you, Mr. Clerk, I'm addressing it to my colleagues on the committee simply to make those two points. The regulations say we must get the chair from the Senate first, and tradition has it that we should have an anglophone-francophone balance. That's the end of my intercession.
[Translation]
Senator Prud'homme (La Salle): With all due respect to Mr. Ringma, besides the election, there's nothing else on today's agenda. And anything Mr. Ringma wants to say, think or submit to the committee can only be submitted once you have proceeded. Everything Mr. Ringma, in his wisdom, wants to submit to the committee can be submitted after the Co-Chairs have been elected.
Things may change in 35 years, but to my knowledge that has not changed. The Standing Orders clearly state that you, our distinguished and competent clerks, have no other authority than that of receiving nominations for the Joint Chairmanship of the two committees. Mr. Ringma may speak after the Senate Co-Chair has been elected and immediately intervene then as someone will be there to chair the meeting.
Senator Robichaud (L'Acadie): Mr. Chairman, I nominate Senator Maurice Riel as Co-Chair of the Official Languages Committee.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Ouno): Are there any other nominations for the Co-Chairmanship? If not, does the motion carry?
Motion agreed to unanimously
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Ouno): Unfortunately, Senator Riel is not here today but I declare the motion agreed to. So Senator Riel is elected Co-Chair of this committee and I would invite my colleague to carry on.
Mr. Ringma: Can I put a question now? Is he a member of this committee?
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Ouno): Yes, he has been appointed to the committee.
[English]
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Knowles): I am now ready to receive nominations for co-chair from the House.
[Translation]
I am now ready to entertain a motion for the Co-Chair from the House of Commons.
Mr. Dupuy (Laval West): I move that Albina Guarnieri be elected Co-Chair of this committee.
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Knowles): It is moved by Mr. Dupuy, seconded by Mr. Marchand, that Mrs. Guarnieri be elected Co-Chair. Is this the wish of this committee?
Motion agreed to unanimously
The Joint Clerk (Mr. Knowles): I would invite Mrs. Guarnieri to please take the chair as Joint Chair of the Committee.
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): I'd like to thank you and especially Mr. Dupuy and Mr. Marchand for having moved and seconded my candidacy. It's an honour to be Co-Chair of this committee with my distinguished colleague from the other Chamber, senator Riel. We have a lot to do to discharge our duties in seeing to the promotion and development of both our official languages.
If you don't mind a little aside, I had the honour of adopting Acadians from Prince Edward Island, from the Saint Thomas Aquinas Society. Today, we will looking at a subject I hold close to my heart.
I don't want to get into a long speech, but on behalf of all my colleagues on this committee, I'll take this opportunity to thank Patrick Gagnon for the very good work he has done here.
.1540
I would now suggest that we go to the election of our Vice-Chairs. We are going to be choosing two Vice-Chairs, but we'll have one motion at a time.
Mr. Allmand: I would like to move the name of Mr. Benoît Serré, member for Timiskaming - French River, in northern Ontario, a Franco-Ontarian member of this committee for many years.
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): Thank you. Are there any other proposals?
Motion agreed to
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): The other Vice-Chair will be a member of the Opposition. Do you have any names to move?
Mr. Serré.
Mr. Serré (Timiskaming - French River): I move the honourable member for Québec-Est, Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand, a Franco-Ontarian colleague from way back.
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): Does everyone agree?
Motion agreed to
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): You'll have a very short meeting as the Clerk has informed me that all the other procedures have already been established in previous meetings.
Mr. Marchand (Québec-Est): I'd still like to make a comment on the procedures previously adopted. I was not present at that meeting, but I'd like to submit to the Chair the fact that Opposition members, in the past, did not have enough time to put the questions. I have sat on other committees where Opposition members were given the floor after one of the government members had had it for a certain period of time. Normally, the first person to be given the floor was a member of the Opposition and then a government member; then we'd get back to the other member of the Opposition, another government member and so on. It was far more equitable.
The way things work right now, we only get the floor once, and then it's almost certain the Opposition will not be able to get in a second round of questioning.
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): Any further comments?
Senator Robichaud: If you don't mind, I'd like to address what Mr. Marchand has just said. If memory serves, which it does most of the time, Mr. Marchand has never had a lack of opportunity to speak because he's had the floor more often than not. It's always a pleasure to hear him.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms Guarnieri): Mr. Allmand.
Mr. Allmand: On the same subject, what Mr. Marchand describes is correct for a House of Commons committee. For good or for bad, this committee is a bit different in that it's a joint committee of the Senate and the House, and in that respect we have additional parties. For example, the Conservative Party has a status on this committee because it is the official opposition in the Senate, and there are Liberals from both the Senate and the House.
I agree with Mr. Marchand that there should be an equitable manner of making sure the official opposition has a chance to question, but I would suggest that maybe the steering committee - and I hope you have a steering committee - would get together and devise a set of rules that would be satisfactory. We have to keep in mind, though, that it's not just the parties in the House who will have a say on this committee but also the parties from the Senate. I think this is something that, rather than us arguing about it today, could be very well dealt with by the steering committee with Mr. Marchand as a member.
[Translation]
Senator Rivest (Stadacona): When the Steering Committee meets, and the Chair has decided the kind of work our committee will be undertaking, I would like it to be established that this parliamentary committee, which represents Canadians from all corners of the country, both francophone and anglophone, must establish its prime concern as giving its support and encouragement to those efforts made by the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne and a sizeable group of businessmen and women and businesses in the National Capital Region.
.1545
I insist that this committee formally support those efforts made to ensure, through incentive and not through coercion, the use of the French language, which is one of the two great languages of this country, in businesses in the National Capital.
So I would hope that the new Co-Chairs will ensure that the wishes of the past Co-Chair of our committee, Mr. Gagnon, won't remain wishful thinking. This committee must not delay in looking into the matter of the use of the French language in business in the region of our National Capital. I would not want this to be set back indefinitely for whatever reason, because I believe this committee cannot show a lack of interest in this very serious question.
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): Mr. Serré.
Mr. Serré: Madam Chair, I believe we're talking about two different problems. Before addressing the problem raised by the senator, I would like to make sure that the problem raised by Mr. Marchand is submitted first to the Steering Committee. Is there consensus on that?
Mr. Marchand: Yes. I agree with Mr. Allmand's suggestion. The Steering Committee can actually re-examine our procedure to make it a little more balanced as there are senators from other parties.
I also support Senator Rivest's proposal. I do think that the proposal concerning Ottawa, our National Capital, should be re-examined on a priority basis. We will no doubt have the opportunity of discussing all this as soon as the Steering Committee meets.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms Guarnieri): Mr. Ringma.
Mr. Ringma: Did I hear a motion and a seconding of the motion?
Senator Rivest: This is just a discussion. There is no problem. This is not the motion.
Mr. Ringma: But I heard us second the motion.
Senator Rivest: Yes, that's fine.
[Translation]
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): Mr. Serré.
Mr. Serré: I'd like to comment on that before addressing the problem raised by the senator. I think the Official Languages Act, Part VII, makes it incumbent upon the government of Canada to promote the development of our country's official languages. So I think it's within the terms of reference of this committee to look at that matter concerning our National Capital.
On the other hand, I quite agree that it's our mandate and even our duty to do so. But I would like the review to be broader and not only look at bilingual signs but also at the implementation of all of part VII of the Act in the National Capital so that implementation of the legislation is not strictly limited to the commercial aspect.
[English]
The Joint Chair (Ms Guarnieri): Mr. Allmand.
Mr. Allmand: I support the spirit of the senator's motion, but again I think this is a matter the steering committee should deal with and they should present us with the terms of reference of such an inquiry.
The senator said to investigate the usage of French in commercial operations in Ottawa.
We only have jurisdiction as a federal government in matters under federal jurisdiction, which would be federal buildings, the National Capital Commission. Other matters are under provincial jurisdiction. I'm not being precise here. I would think it should apply to the area of the national capital region, not simply Ottawa and not simply Hull. But I'll leave that to the steering committee. I'm sure they'll work it out.
The Joint Chair (Ms Guarnieri): I'd like to thank you all for your interventions.
[Translation]
Mr. Prud'homme.
Senator Prud'homme: First of all, Madam, I would like to congratulate you on your election to the co-chairmanship and wish you as well as your co-chair and the vice-chairs, all the patience needed.
I would also like to say that I very much regret the departure of Mr. Patrick Gagnon and especially how it was done. I don't intend elaborating on how political parties settle their problems, but I must say that I regret it was decided it was best to do without Mr. Gagnon's services on this committee because of the controversy he perhaps raised himself by going a little further than the Standing Orders allow be announcing a program in advance without consultation. That's the only think he can be blamed for.
.1550
Second, I would like to join my colleagues who think the time has really come to say what brought about Mr. Patrick Gagnon's resignation. Mr. Ringma, I and others who would like to follow me could go down, right across Parliament, on Metcalfe and Sparks street and tell all our francophone compatriots that Ottawa is also their home. Personally, over the last 35 years, I've been meeting with tens of thousands of French speaking compatriots and I always tell them that Ottawa is also their home.
What most often happens is that they're first of all spoken to in English and that doesn't always create a best first impression.
So, without minimizing in any way the scope of what Mr. Serré has said, I would like to say that I'm determined to do my senator's job to the hilt and that is to protecting the minorities and the regions until the population decides to either change or reform the Senate. Meanwhile, the Senate has a role to play and I would wish very strongly that my Senate colleagues would show vigorous interest in the matter of the status of French in our National Capital.
Before making Vancouver and Newfoundland bilingual, we should look at what goes on in our Capital and this would help Canadians to understand the French-Canadian people who is not confined to the boundaries of Quebec. I'm separating myself a little from my friends from the Bloc québécois when I say the French-Canadian people isn't confined to the limits of Quebec but that Quebec is its fortress. However, that fortress should be known outside of its boundaries and certainly, here, in Ottawa.
I think that was Mr. Patrick Gagnon's goal and we all know the problems that caused for him. But I'm sure that others will carry on where Mr. Gagnon left off on this very important matter for our country's survival.
Mr. Marchand: Are they the same vice-chairs, Madam?
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): Yes, I believe they are the same as before.
[English]
Mr. Marchand: Do you sit on the steering committee?
Mr. Ringma: No, but Mr. Breitkreuz does.
I would like to say a word about the steering committee when I have a chance.
The Joint Chair (Ms Guarnieri): Mr. Ringma.
Mr. Ringma: I simply have a word of encouragement. When I sat on this committee over the period of a couple of years, the steering committee did not meet.
Mr. Marchand: This committee?
Mr. Ringma: Yes, this Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages - and it had work to do.
The Joint Chair (Ms Guarnieri): That is something that would not happen with respect to -
Mr. Ringma: So, please, I encourage the newly elected office -
Mr. Serré: I'd like to set the record straight, because for the last session of this committee - and Mr. Marchand can attest to that - the steering committee did meet regularly. Maybe sometimes the decisions were already made before we met, but we did meet.
The Joint Chair (Ms Guarnieri): I can't believe that. I'm shocked.
[Translation]
After what I've heard, I think we're rather in agreement with the feelings you have expressed. I will get the steering committee together as soon as possible with my co-chair, the senator. We'll agree to set a time for the meeting and we'll meet as soon as possible.
Senator Prud'homme: Could you repeat the items on the agenda? We have two co-chairs, Senator Riel and Mrs. Guarnieri and two vice-chairs, Messrs. Serré and Marchand and the senator also. Is that official?
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): There are two senators.
The Clerk of the Committee: The co-chair and the other senator.
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): Two senators, the Chair and a member of the Reform Party.
Senator Prud'homme: And the Reform Party?
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): Yes. That way we're all represented.
Senator prud'homme: So we can choose who will be making our representations.
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): Yes.
Mr. Serré: The independents also?
The Joint Chair (Mrs. Guarnieri): I am sure we will do our work well. Thank you all.
The meeting stands adjourned.