[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, November 19, 1996
.1547 
[English]
The Chair: We're back and we are working today on Bill C-27, an act to amend the Criminal Code with respect to child prostitution, child sex tourism, criminal harassment and female genital mutilation. We're also dealing with Madame Gagnon's private member's bill on the subject of female genital mutilation.
We have a witness today on the issue of child sex tourism. From End Child Prostitution in Asian Tourism Canada we have Enrico Esguerra, who is the coordinator of that NGO.
I want to welcome you. We'll be happy to hear your brief and then we will have several questions for you.
Mr. Enrico Esguerra (Coordinator, End Child Prostitution in Asian Tourism Canada): This is going to be pretty informal. I don't have a formal brief.
The Chair: That's fine.
Ms Torsney (Burlington): We like that.
Mr. Esguerra: ECPAT Canada, which was known as the Canadian Committee for the International Campaign to End Child Prostitution in Asian Tourism, originally started in November 1991 as a coalition of Canadian churches and concerned individuals. That was part of the Bangkok based International Campaign to End Child Prostitution in Asian Tourism.
Initially we had sought to discover the nature of Canadian involvement in the commercial sexual exploitation of children. The broad aims of ECPAT included an education and information campaign to keep the issue before the public, collecting data pertaining to Canadian involvement in the prostitution of children overseas, and advocacy for changes to relevant Canadian laws and policies.
In February 1996, while preparing for the meeting of the UN Commission on Human Rights, we presented a brief to the Canadian government. In that brief we pointed out that the commercial sexual exploitation of children continues to grow as a multi-million dollar industry. The International Campaign to End the Prostitution of Children in Asian Tourism says that the rapid growth of tourism over the past two decades has coincided in several countries with the emergence or expansion of the child sex industry.
To give you some figures, the current trends in Asia point to an increasing number of younger girls being forced into the sex trade. In Kampuchea a survey undertaken by the Cambodian Women's Development Association showed that 35% of sex workers were under 18 years and that the minimum age of prostituting girls had dropped, from 18 to 19 in 1993, to 15 to 16 in 1994. Reports also say that girls as young as 13 work in the city's brothels, and trafficking of girls at $150 U.S. each from Kampuchea to Thailand and Vietnam is rampant.
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Increased tourism and the presence of peacekeeping forces in war-affected regions have fueled the demand for younger girls as foreign customers attempt to protect themselves from the dangers of HIV/AIDS. Although not really major tourist destinations in the past, there are fears that as Kampuchea, Vietnam and Laos open up, poverty in these countries will encourage the development of a tourist sex industry with a child sex component, as in neighbouring Thailand. This is especially so as countries reputed to be sex tourist playgrounds, such as Thailand, begin to clamp down on the industry.
In the same brief we presented in February 1996, we urged the Government of Canada to review those sections of the Criminal Code pertinent to the prostitution of juveniles and, where absent, include such provisions that would ensure the prosecution in Canada of Canadian nationals who engage in the sexual exploitation of children overseas.
In August 1996, at the World Congress Against the Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children, held in Stockholm, Sweden, the Hon. Lloyd Axworthy pointed out that we must make those who allow such things to happen realize that they will be held accountable for their complicity.
We in ECPAT therefore welcome the introduction of Bill C-27, specifically those provisions that deal with offences in relation to child sex tourism and those related to the prostitution of persons under the age of 18. With the introduction of this bill we feel we have made a step forward in the global campaign to eradicate the prostitution of children. However, we have some concerns.
One, while the provisions were drawn with very specific purposes in mind, at the outset we saw that there is a tendency to narrow the scope of legislation only to those Canadians who go abroad and attempt to obtain, or do obtain, the sexual services of children for money. But what about the cases of other Canadians who don't exactly give money in return for the sexual services of children?
We have two cases that have been shared with us by our partners in Asia. I'd like to share them with the members of this committee.
The ECPAT group in Cambodia has become concerned about the activities of a French Canadian man and have asked that we contact groups in the other countries to see if they have knowledge of this person's organization.
This person is a doctor and psychiatrist from Montreal who runs a foundation that aims to assist street children in various countries of Asia. He has written several books. The foundation appears to have a Christian base, and organizes foster parents and sponsors for street children. It works in the Philippines and northern Thailand and has headquarters in Canada. The homes for street children are apparently run by foreign volunteers. In these homes several young boys have been adopted by this doctor. Some of these children have claimed that they were involved in sexual activities with him. This person was back in Canada in August of last year.
So here is a case where there was no exchange of money for sexual services.
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The other Canadian involved - and I think this was publicized, written about in an article by Paul Watson of The Toronto Star - was Jean-Guy Heureux. The 43-year-old Canadian businessman was arrested in his house on suspicion that he was a pedophile. Three naked teenaged girls were rescued from his place. He employs child labour in his own factory, which produces papier mâché dolls and other novelty items. At the same time, the girls reported they were kept as virtual sex slaves of Heureux. The young victims were 13 and 14.
How do we deal with such a case?
Second, do the provisions pertaining to child sex tourism and the prostitution of children under 18 also cover the Canadian Armed Forces on peacekeeping missions? This is another concern we'd like to raise.
Finally, what about the question of implementation? Maybe the procedural questions or the methods of how we're going to go about implementing the law would have to be made clearer.
In relation to that, if ever the bill is passed into law, what about mechanisms for monitoring cases, for monitoring implementation? How would we, as non-governmental organizations, work with government agencies and institutions?
Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Madame Gagnon.
[Translation]
Ms Gagnon (Québec): Thank you for coming to testify on behalf of an organization working with people concerned by this problem.
This morning you raised an interesting point. The bill introduced by the minister does not cover sexual abuse cases. The bill covers only those cases where sexual favours have been given for consideration. The bill therefore does not cover sexual abuse cases. I wonder whether or not it would be possible to have this bill include all cases of sexual abuse where there has been no exchange of money.
This morning an individual testified about a very particular case. A woman said that her son could not prosecute an individual because he had not received any money for sexual services.
This bill is very close to my heart. Thank you for the support that you gave me at the start. We are all pleased that the minister is tabling a bill. However, I think that it would perhaps be in our best interest to improve it and this is why you are here today. We are counting on you to provide us with some clarification. What would be the best amendments we could make to the bill?
Like many people who testified this week, I would like to see an article in the bill which would spell out in greater detail the criminal liability of the other parties involved, such as the tourism agencies, the advertising agencies and the carriers. We are well aware of the fact that these parties contribute directly to the increase of sexual tourism abroad. Accordingly, this must be specified in this bill.
I know that there are other provisions in the Act, but we would like this spelled out more clearly in this specific case. I think that this bill should have a provision which makes these parties that I referred too, liable.
Do you agree that this is a shortcoming in this bill? Would you agree to adding an article in this bill?
[English]
Mr. Esguerra: Two points. First, I agree with the points you raise, Madame Gagnon.
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First, when we speak of the sex exploiter, at ECPAT we do not only mean the person who actually obtains the sexual services of the child or the woman, but we refer as well to other persons involved in the entire process - the pimps, the brothel owners and the protectors, such as government officials and the police. It would also include unscrupulous travel agents and tourism agencies that promote such sex tours. We know in Toronto there are some. So maybe the bill could be more specific and clear on this.
Second, we shared with some friends in the ECPAT network we met in Stockholm the point about broadening the scope of the bill to include sexual assault in general.
Another case was mentioned in The Toronto Star article, that of a Canadian named Benjamin Dennis. He was charged with sexually assaulting two young boys, aged 12 and 14, in Sri Lanka. In that particular case it was the boys who were sent to a rehabilitation centre while Benjamin Dennis was set free. He was made to pay a fine that was equivalent to only $50 Canadian.
That's a very specific case where there was no exchange of money for sexual favours and where the charge was clearly sexual assault. Again, what do we do with those people?
[Translation]
Ms Gagnon: I would simply like to add that, if the purpose of the bill is indeed to reduce an to thwart the practice of sexual abuse, regardless of whether or not there is consideration, this is certainly a positive thing. We must therefore amend the bill proposed by the minister.
[English]
Mr. Esguerra: Yes.
The Chair: Ms Torsney.
Ms Torsney: I want to identify that the arranging of sex tours is not in the current piece of legislation because it's already in our Criminal Code, and there's no need to be repetitive. It's already here in paragraphs 212(1)(a) and (g).
For those who are concerned, the paragraphs say:
- 212. (1) Every one who
- (a) procures, attempts to procure or solicits a person to have illicit sexual intercourse with
another person, whether in or out of Canada,
- ...
- (g) procures a person to enter or leave Canada, for the purpose of prostitution.
In terms of ECPAT, through your networks you often have a lot of information and can help with enforcement. You've identified the question of how would the NGOs work with government. I think we have a pretty good record of trying to facilitate that in every way possible. Certainly on this issue there's been a good effort.
One of the things people have identified as being a problem with the legislation is the question of resources, but I think it's a bit of a false argument. There are a number of cases where it's so clear and where there is work done by groups like yours. It's all prepared and then dropped on a government official's lap, and they say, we can't, the legislation isn't there yet.
I wonder if you could discuss that. You have the two cases you just mentioned, where if the law was changed we could do something on both of those cases.
Mr. Esguerra: An example I can think of is that we do receive ``urgent action'' abuse cases from our partners in Asia and other parts of the world. Sometimes we don't know what to do with them.
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It's a question of resources, but it's also a question of how we can set up mechanisms for consultation and regular exchange of information. In these particular cases it would be relations with the police agencies or with the justice ministry. That way, whenever we have data coming in we could feed the concerned agencies.
Ms Torsney: The other thing that's been suggested as a criticism of this piece of legislation is that it's not our problem. It's really the problem of countries like Sri Lanka, Thailand and Cambodia, who allow this practice to take place. Let them clean up their own laws. I've heard that from members of this committee on this issue.
What do you say to those people?
Mr. Esguerra: These countries - the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Taiwan and a lot of countries in Asia, the tourist-receiving countries - have already enacted laws with stiffer penalties to address these problems. In the Philippines they're even considering the death penalty for such offences.
So it's not as though these countries do not do anything about it. On a larger scale, well, we'd have to go into a whole discussion on the relationship of these maldeveloped countries with the countries of the north or the west, or whatever you call them.
When you talk of cleaning up their laws, they have their laws. We have to admit, though, that corruption, and the problem with officials being involved in these things, is also there.
Ms Torsney: As in Belgium and other places.
Mr. Esguerra: Yes.
As the world congress declaration and agenda for action called for, there has to be cooperation at the international level among not only government agencies but also police agencies. INTERPOL has been very actively working with ECPAT on this issue.
Ms Torsney: Thank you.
The Chair: Mr. Rideout.
Mr. Rideout (Moncton): I have just one quick question. You gave those two examples and then you went on to talk about peacekeepers. Do you have some specifics you can enlighten the committee with in terms of what you were driving at there?
Mr. Esguerra: We have cases of UN peacekeeping forces in southeast Asia involved in the sexual abuse of women and children. This goes back about two to three years.
Mr. Rideout: Will the legislation we have before us now do anything to help alleviate that?
Mr. Esguerra: That was my question, whether this legislation covers these peacekeeping forces as well.
Mr. Rideout: Okay. Got it.
Ms Torsney: I can give you an example. One of the delegates identified a case that occurred in Mozambique with Italian forces at one point. The leader from the UN, an Italian as well, tried to deal with the issue and was told by the commander of the forces they were there only as UN personnel, and he didn't care if they were Italian. He answered only to Rome, and they were to leave it alone.
There are cases in Angola and other places of Africa, and in Sri Lanka as well, where people know this is occurring. They see the young girls going off in the blue caps trucks, and they're afraid. To whom do you complain if you believe the peacekeepers are there to help you? What are you doing to do, tell them they've committed a crime against your children? It's very difficult.
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Mr. Rideout: We're not writing a law for that, are we?
Ms Torsney: No, but it is a question whether or not...and I believe this will be able to apply if Canadian peacekeepers do this.
Mr. Rideout: That was my thought.
Ms Torsney: Yes. We can show some leadership.
The Chair: Has there been any allegation that Canadian peacekeepers are involved in this?
Ms Torsney: No, but other UN peacekeepers, definitely.
The Chair: Okay. Madame Gagnon.
[Translation]
Ms Gagnon: We have been told that this measure could apply to soldiers. I do not feel that this is true because this bill deals only with those cases where there has been consideration. We realize that this bill would not apply in the case of sexual assault. We would like your opinion on this shortcoming in particular. The bill applies only in cases where there has been prostitution for consideration. This bill will not have any legal force in cases of child abuse.
The scope of this bill must be broadened considerably. Moreover, I believe that it is in New Zealand, where the scope of this type of legislation is much broader since it covers all types of assault. In fact, three or four witnesses have asked us to do this. I don't see how this bill could be applicable in cases of sexual assault perpetrated by soldiers.
I would like to ask you another question. We know what type of impact this kind of assault has on a child's life. It must not be easy to institute legal proceedings against someone. One witness told us that this bill did not provide for many provisions. How are legal proceedings going to be instituted in practice? Will the court travel to a country or are we going to be able to prosecute using video material? We know that we have to obtain the testimony of abused children. How do you see such an act being enforced? Do you think it is difficult?
[English]
Mr. Esguerra: I posed that question to some of our friends here earlier. Suppose we arrest a Canadian who was involved in such a case. How do we go about investigating the case and trying this particular person? Do we bring the child over to Canada? If we do, do we send him or her back after the trial without consideration for his or her safety when he or she goes back to the country? I don't know how you'd do it.
[Translation]
Ms Gagnon: There appears to be some collusion in some countries, as you said. We saw what occurred in Europe in the Dutroux incident. In some countries, this is a very lucrative business because the tourists spend money in the country. Therefore, the countries have often turned a blind eye to this practice. There may be some existing legislation, but is it really enforced? How would a child be able to obtain all of this support of his community?
I'm summarizing the observations made by some witnesses with respect to enforcement of this legislation. We need a law. The law is designed to serve as a deterrent. To begin with, it is not right to accept the idea that a Canadian can go to another country and abuse children sexually. This is not right. If we had a law, at least we could prosecute this individual.
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The law would enable us to rectify such behaviour. However, it is not clear how this law would be enforced.
[English]
Mr. Esguerra: If we are really serious about pursuing this bill, I feel the Canadian government should muster the resources necessary to see through the implementation of this bill. For one, Canada is signatory to, and has ratified, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which provides that the child be given first priority.
[Translation]
Ms Gagnon: Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: No other questions, colleagues?
Thank you very much for your presentation and your assistance. It helps us to further our deliberations. We appreciate your taking the time.
Mr. Esguerra: Thank you.
The Chair: We now break until tomorrow at 3:30 p.m.