[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Wednesday, June 19, 1996
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[English]
The Vice-Chair (Ms Torsney): I'd like to call this meeting to order.
This is the meeting on the main estimates for the fiscal year 1996-97 for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, under the Solicitor General. Commissioner Murray, you've brought quite a team of uniforms with you. Perhaps you could introduce your team.
Commissioner J.P.R. Murray (Royal Canadian Mounted Police): Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
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With me is Assistant Commissioner Frank Richter, director of finance and supply; Deputy Commissioner Herman Beaulac, deputy commissioner of the central region; Deputy Commissioner Curt Allen, who is from headquarters; Deputy Commissioner Dick Bergman, from the Atlantic region; and Assistant Commissioner Terry Ryan, director of federal services.
The Vice-Chair (Ms Torsney): Terrific. Welcome.
Commr Murray: Thank you very much.
The Vice-Chair (Ms Torsney): I think you have a statement for us, and then we'll go to questions and answers.
Commr Murray: I hope you would beg my indulgence for a few moments, Madam Chair.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. It is my pleasure once again to appear before this committee to describe how the RCMP has successfully been meeting its challenges during the 1990s and how we intend to meet the challenges that lie ahead.
Last year when I appeared before this committee, I explained how the RCMP intended to streamline and restructure its activities in order to reduce operating costs and, at the same time, maintain our high standards and excellence in service to the Canadian public.
I am pleased to tell you that we have delivered on many of the initiatives I described to you at that time. I indicated that the force would begin a comprehensive review of our national police services program. This review is under way in partnership with the Department of the Solicitor General.
The services provided to other police organizations assist in maintaining national policing standards, combating organized crime and ensuring national security. The review will identify emerging needs for service from police boards across the country, improve existing services to clients, consider cost-sharing agreements, and examine alternative service delivery mechanisms.
[Translation]
I also indicated that we would be examining police airport services provided by the RCMP. Following that examination, the government authorize the RCMP to delegate that responsibility to airport authorities. The delegation process is already under way. Furthermore, the RCMP will be facilitating the transfer of its protection mandate to other police services and security officers. The RCMP will also be maintaining and improving its anti-terrorist response capabilities in airports.
[English]
As part of the RCMP's commitment to community policing and in an effort to foster better police community relations that can prevent costly confrontations, I have initiated a commissioner's youth advisory committee to discuss issues with young people and provide a forum for consultation and education.
[Translation]
The RCMP is maintaining its commitment to deliver services based on community policing principles. These include decision-making by those responsible for delivering services, evaluating and managing risks, consulting clients, problem solving, and mobilizing community resources and support of its law-enforcing activity. In other words, the RCMP wants to apply modern management principles to its police activities.
[English]
In support of our community policing programs, the RCMP has recently embarked upon a process to regionalize our organization. It is proposed that a deputy commissioner will head up each of four regions. Our goals are operational and administrative effectiveness, and the optimal use of resources.
By realigning our resources into front-line service delivery and flattening the organization, we will promote effective, efficient community-based policing and increased savings based on economies of scale.
The dismantling of organized criminal networks is fundamental to the force's overall objective of safe homes and communities through community policing, as well as to the government's broader commitment to the prevention of crime.
In recent years, the RCMP has been involved in three major initiatives aimed at reducing transnational organized crime: Canada's drug strategy, the anti-smuggling initiative and the proceeds-of-crime initiative. These have been particularly successful because they significantly increase the risk of involvement of illegal activities and take the profit out of criminal enterprises.
The significant impact of these initiatives was demonstrated last March, when more than500 criminal charges were laid against 170 people and estimated seizures of close to $30 million were made as part of an anti-smuggling investigation.
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In 1995 the RCMP seized goods, vehicles, firearms, and cash, and conducted forfeitures, worth almost $40 million, a 33% increase over the previous year.
Altogether, the RCMP has seized approximately $158 million in assets since the proceeds-of-crime legislation was adopted in 1989. This includes an operation in British Columbia that targeted money laundering and resulted in charges against 76 people as well as seizures of $40 million, more than 800 kilograms of cocaine, and 200 kilograms of marijuana.
[Translation]
Furthermore, the RCMP is playing an increasingly important role in the battle against motorcycle gangs.
Although those three initiatives are scheduled for termination in 1997, we will be requesting renewed funding in order to maintain them.
[English]
Violence or the fear of violence is an issue that affects us all. While official statistics on violence may have fallen over the past five years, Canadians remain concerned about violence and the potential for violence in their communities.
The role the police must continue to play within communities is not limited to responding to reported acts of violence. It must also involve the use of policing strategies that encourage community members to play an active role in finding the most appropriate solutions to specific situations, while also promoting education, communication, and training.
[Translation]
The RCMP's intervention at Gustafsen Lake last summer and at Davis Inlet early the year before are excellent illustrations of how community policing principles can be applied in highly complex situations. The RCMP implemented problem-solving strategies, consulted community residents and delegated decision-making to those responsible for delivering services. The community's assistance was requested throughout the process.
[English]
We have had similar successes more recently in negotiating peaceful resolutions to potentially explosive situations at the Waterhen reserve in Manitoba, among crab fishermen in New Brunswick, and at Cole Harbour, Nova Scotia. I consider the peaceful resolution of these incidents to be statements of the effectiveness of community policing.
Responding to violence, facilitating crime prevention, and focusing on youth crime and youth at risk are cross-sectoral issues that have also been strategic priorities of the RCMP for the past several years.
The government has introduced gun control legislation to deal with violent crime, and legislation will be introduced to create a DNA data bank that will aid in the identification of violent criminals. Both of these initiatives will require the RCMP to collect records, store them, and make them available when required. In effect this places the onus on the RCMP to ensure the success of these initiatives.
[Translation]
As part of Program Review the RCMP is continuing to explore ways of strengthening its federal criminal law enforcement activities. The review is being conducted jointly with Revenue Canada (Customs), Citizenship and Immigration and the Canadian Parks Service. If the review is successful, the RCMP will become responsible for enforcing all federal criminal statutes.
[English]
The RCMP is developing a range of alternative funding approaches, including partnerships and joint ventures as well as cost-recovery or cost-sharing opportunities. As an example, in its first year the RCMP's product licensing program, administered by the Mounted Police Foundation, has allocated more than $100,000 to community policing and crime prevention initiatives throughout the country at no additional cost to the Canadian public. And this is only the beginning.
Canadians are facing significant challenges, and perhaps our biggest challenge is to foster national unity. I would like to impress upon you the significance of the RCMP contract policing role as a unifying force throughout Canada. The RCMP is a highly visible symbol of national unity, recognized and respected in every part of Canada and around the world.
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The provision of contract policing services provides the federal government with a positive, cost-effective way of fulfilling its constitutional responsibility for peace, order, and good government. It also presents an opportunity to promote federal policies and programs such as bilingualism and employment equity. Contract policing also contributes to uniform quality of policing services across the country. It's a vehicle for economical federal policing services, as well as a rapid and relatively inexpensive mobilization of resources for emergency situations and major events wherever they may occur across Canada.
[Translation]
The RCMP is looking ahead towards the 21st century. We intend to take advantage of the many opportunities ahead by promoting team spirit and a shared vision, so that we can achieve our common goal: safe homes and safe communities.
[English]
I'm confident that the force will continue to be a progressive and dynamic police service that is sensitive to the needs of Canadians generally, our employees, and the three levels of government that we serve.
My colleagues and I will now be happy to respond to any questions you may have.
The Chair: Thank you, Commissioner.
I apologize for being late, but I was delayed in the House.
Mr. Langlois.
[Translation]
Mr. Langlois (Bellechasse): First of all, could you give us some details on the ruling handed down in the Gingras case in March 1994? The case was on the bilingual bonus. What's happening with the payment of amount provided for in the ruling?
Comm. Murray: Mr. Allen might have some details on this.
Deputy Commissioner Curtis G. Allen (Deputy Commissioner, National Transition, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): To date, we have paid the bilingual bonus retroactively to almost all members. Only about thirty people are still unidentified. We still have to pay interest to everyone involved. Some issues with Treasury Board remain to be settled before we can pay members and former members.
Mr. Langlois: Are current bonuses being paid regularly?
Deputy Commissioner Allen: They are paid every two weeks, along with regular pay.
Mr. Langlois: We met during a meeting of the government operations committee, when it was studying Bill C-58, which involved RCMP officers' working conditions. The bill might have been renamed C-30, but not a single comma has been changed. I understand that the RCMP employee association met with the Minister to request that the bill be deferred.
Are you aware of any steps taken by RCMP officers to defer passage of Bill C-30?
Commissioner Murray: I'm not really aware of the meeting with the minister, but perhapsMr. Allen could give some details.
Deputy Commissioner Allen: I really couldn't tell you about each meeting. I do know that some RCMP officers do not support the bill. In their opinion, the bill gives the commissioner additional powers. I do not share that opinion, but I do know that's why they do not support the bill.
Mr. Langlois: What about Part II of the Canadian Labour Code, which deals with health and safety? Do you still believe it should not apply to RCMP officers?
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Commissioner Murray: We now have a system comparable to Part II of the Labour Code. There is a regulation pertaining to the RCMP, which indicates that our system is comparable or better. Our officers are therefore very well protected.
Mr. Langlois: But you are still opposed to the unionization of RCMP officers and to free bargaining for their working conditions?
Commissioner Murray: Mr. Beaulac is doubtless aware of any progress made in this area, but we are talking about two different things. I'm sure he can provide some details.
Deputy Commissioner Herman Beaulac (Deputy Commissioner, Central Region, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): At the RCMP, bargaining is carried out through a system of divisional representatives. That is provided for under the RCMP Act.
Bargaining related to benefits or other types of compensation is carried out between the RCMP and Treasury Board. At present, most RCMP officers still support the divisional representative system, even though some do not. The commissioner has said quite openly that, if most RCMP officers ever came to feel that the system no longer worked for them or for the RCMP, he would be the first to discuss it with the minister.
Mr. Langlois: You say that most RCMP officers support the system. How do you assess those numbers? As far as I know RCMP officers have never been asked to vote on the issue, so how do you know what those numbers are?
Commissioner Murray: Surveys tell us that some 10 to 11% or RCMP officers are in favour of unionization. This means that if 10% are in favour of unionization, 90% are in favour of our current divisional representation system. As far as I am concerned, most of RCMP officers are clearly in favour of our current system. Some would prefer a union, but certainly not the majority.
Mr. Langlois: To what extent will officers in favour of unionization have the freedom to promote unionization, or to create a group of unionized RCMP officers?
Commissioner Murray: The RCMP Act provides for a system of divisional representatives. If any members of the force would like to replace that with another system, they will have every opportunity to submit their suggestion to the RCMP.
Mr. Langlois: They will be free to make such suggestion, if I understand correctly.
Deputy Commissioner Beaulac: Yes, they can submit suggestions to their supervisors.
Mr. Langlois: I see. Let me quote a ruling handed down by the arbitration board of the Human Resources Development Department. The ruling was handed down on June 6th in the case of Staff Sergeant Gaétan Delisle:
- The Arbitration Board has taken into account Mr. Delisle impressive record in setting up the
association, and believes that he was suspended primarily because he wanted to establish a
police officers' association at the RCMP, not because he is standing for election as mayor.
.1600
Deputy Commissioner Beaulac: First, I should point out that Mr. Delisle was the divisional representative for officers in Division C. Since he had been elected to those duties, he had to comply with certain regulations. If he wanted to bring his own ideas forward, he should have done that in his own time. There is clearly a potential conflict of interest here.
Mr. Langlois: Since you claim that, pursuant to section 57 of your regulations, Staff Sergeant Gaétan Delisle could not stand for election of mayor of the municipality of Saint-Blaise-sur-Richelieu, do you believe that the people form Saint-Blaise-sur-Richelieu have elected a seditious mayor?
Deputy Commissioner Beaulac: We have to be cautious in discussing this particular case. As Commissioner or Deputy Commissioner, we may be asked for a decision of some kind. This means we have to be careful in answering questions on specific cases like Mr. Delisle's.
[English]
The Chair: That's your time, Mr. Langlois. We'll get back to you.
Mr. Hanger.
Mr. Hanger (Calgary Northeast): I'm interested in the joint employment equity review. I understand that the RCMP and the Human Rights Commission had some sort of action plan outlined that came to the conclusion that the RCMP, in its hiring practices, had a shortage, if you want to describe it as that, of 1,006 visible minorities, 202 aboriginals and 1,529 women. I'm curious as to how your joint effort with the Human Rights Commission and the RCMP recruiting people comes up with that conclusion.
Commr Murray: I'm not aware of that particular conclusion. I'll ask Mr. Allen to clarify the specifics of it, but we have been working very closely with the Human Rights Commission for some time on these and other initiatives. I've had a number of discussions with Mr. Yalden, the chairman of the Canadian Human Rights Commission, and he gave us a very positive report card. So I'm rather surprised to see those numbers. He thought we were making excellent progress in our hiring practices.
Mr. Hanger: That wasn't quite my point. I appreciate that you may be conversing with the Human Rights Commission, but I'm curious as to how a police department determines how many visible minorities or aboriginals you're short of.
Commr Murray: Oh, I get your point now. It's in terms of the actual objectives we have. We don't have a quota system, but we have targets based on population bases of visible minorities in Canada and bases of aboriginal Canadians.
Mr. Beaulac might respond more definitively.
D/Commr Beaulac: The review you mentioned resulted in an agreement in 1995 between the RCMP and the Human Rights Commission. That agreement included some hiring goals, an action plan and a monitoring schedule detailing the steps that should be taken by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to meet the targets that had been set. The plan also incorporated recommendations of the review on our policies and systems. The Canadian Human Rights Commission is to monitor that plan. It's an understanding of three years.
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The actual report identified ways to try to come to grips with the number of women we should have in the force, the number of people from visible minorities or designated groups, if you want to call them that. We used the statement of availability based on historical rates of application. We held focus session groups across the country, internally, with members of the force, members of these groups. We also obtained the views of various communities where we do the policing, advisory committees across the country, to give us some idea of what the needs were. We considered specific job requirements in areas such as investigations dealing with children, dealing with sexual assaults, dealing with harassment investigations, young offenders, where in fact in some cases women may be better equipped to investigate in those sensitive areas. The same applies to the visible minorities.
There is no scientific formula out there that enables us to come to specific numbers, but throughout these various systems that's where we came up with the targets the commission said we fell short of.
Mr. Hanger: Did you use the census?
D/Commr Beaulac: Yes, we did.
Mr. Hanger: So the questions on the last census on race and the like were essential and are going to be essential from henceforth -
D/Commr Beaulac: Yes.
Mr. Hanger: - in the hiring practices of the RCMP and other departments that the Human Rights Commission feels should be living up to its expectations.
D/Commr Beaulac: Through this plan our requirements will be re-evaluated on an annual basis. Those numbers can change, up or down.
Mr. Hanger: Do you hire the best person for the job?
D/Commr Beaulac: We hire the best person available for the job, yes.
Mr. Hanger: I understand the RCMP have engaged in a system called ``block recruiting''.
Commr Murray: That's right.
Mr. Hanger: The competition, if you will, does not exist as a complete group of those who are being recruited, but rather these categories are developed and the competition lies within the categories. Is that correct?
Commr Murray: Every applicant who is hired meets the standard of the force. There's no dual standard for women, for visible minorities, for aboriginals. Everyone meets the standard.
As Deputy Commissioner Beaulac explained, we have an obligation to reflect the larger society. We have an obligation to reflect the communities we deliver the service to. For example, if you take a community like Richmond, British Columbia, where it's now over 45% Asian and a lot of people don't speak either English or French, it's incumbent on us in providing the police service in that community to make sure we provide the kind of people who are capable of communicating within that community. So it takes it beyond sheer numbers.
But every one of those particular applicants meets the standard. We have no double standard.
But if I get the point you're getting at, if you have, let's say, 10,000 white males applying, it stands to reason that probably in the top, let's say, 100 people you're going to hire at a given time, they will probably, just through sheer numbers, occupy 90 of the first 100 positions. But what we're saying is that in order to get others, you have to go down within those 10,000 people who applied. But every one of them we hire will have met the standard.
Mr. Hanger: Maybe you misunderstood my question or I wasn't clear in presenting it. I understand with this block recruiting - say it's in the Vietnamese category - Vietnamese will only compete against Vietnamese; they will not compete against anybody in any other block.
Commr Murray: No, it's not a category per se. The block means a period of time, in blocks of three months. It's in order to facilitate the processing of applicants. Historically we had long waiting lists and once you got on the waiting list you stayed there conceivably forever. You may never have been hired. The block recruiting is designed so that all applicants know exactly where they stand. If they achieve a certain cut-off they move on to the next phase, which is security clearances and interviews and so on. If they don't meet that cut-off they're told right away, so they know they're not in the running at that point but can try again another year.
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Mr. Hanger: I understand you now. You're talking about a block of time. I don't understand that this was what Mr. Gray was getting at when he talked about block recruiting. He was pointing directly to blocks of individuals from the different visible minority groups or designated groups, if you will. The individuals that apply from that group will compete only amongst themselves and not with the whole pool.
Commr Murray: The way it really works is that in a particular three-month block, let's say we're going to hire 100 people. Out of that group we will say we need 18 women, 16 visible minorities, 14 aboriginals - I don't know, just hypothetically - so many with their first official language French, and the rest white males, if you will. That's what you mean by the two together, the time and the numbers. There's a large block of people in the queue during that time, and you take the best out of the qualified groups that meet those particular categories you're looking at hiring.
The Chair: Mr. Gallaway.
Mr. Gallaway (Sarnia - Lambton): Commissioner Murray, in recent days there has been a lot of open speculation in the media. It's going beyond that; it's almost overt suggestions that the investigation by the RCMP into the Airbus affair was somehow instigated by politicians, that you're following the instructions of your political masters. Was the investigation started as a result of instructions from either an elected official or someone who would be identified as political staff in an elected official's office on Parliament Hill?
Commr Murray: The Airbus investigation is proceeding on a couple of fronts. There is an ongoing civil suit and there is an ongoing criminal investigation. I think you can understand that I can't get specific about the details of that case.
I can respond that we receive information from all kinds of sources on the many hundreds of thousands of files we investigate in a given year. On occasion an elected official at any level of government will be a complainant and will advise us of information in relation to a particular offence, and we will conduct an investigation that we consider appropriate.
Under no circumstances in relation to the Airbus case or any other case do we operate under political direction. I've made that point in the public domain before, and I may have made it at this committee before. It seems to me there's a very clear line of distinction with political accountability. In my view, the accountability to Parliament through the Solicitor General deals with policy-related issues. The operational accountability is to the law and to the courts. I consider it very much a part of my responsibilities to make sure our investigators are protected from any kind of political interference in any investigation we may be undertaking. I can assure you that the same applies to the Airbus case.
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Mr. Gallaway: In terms of the fire wall, if I can refer to it as being that, between your force and the minister's office, in the normal course of events - because you've referred to these thousands of files that you undoubtedly opened in a time period - if there is a case that is potentially notorious, newsworthy in one sense, would you advise the minister of such an investigation?
A voice: Like if you were being investigated.
Commr Murray: I'm sorry.
Mr. Gallaway: Would you advise the Minister of Justice that you were investigating somebody who may be a public personality -
Commr Murray: No, we would not.
Mr. Gallaway: - or may have been an elected official?
Commr Murray: No, we would not.
Mr. Gallaway: Do you advise the minister on an ongoing basis with respect to the demographics of your cases?
Commr Murray: Not in the normal course of events.
As I said in relation to your earlier question, I think that fire wall or that line in the sand is very clear, that as regards any ongoing criminal investigation, the minister, whether it be the Minister of Justice or the Solicitor General... You mentioned the Minister of Justice, but my accountability is really to the Solicitor General. The reality is that he is not made aware of the details of ongoing investigations. That's clearly beyond that line in the sand.
I can assure you that Mr. Gray and I have absolutely no difficulty with that arrangement.
Mr. Gallaway: You've anticipated, in one sense, my next question, because I appreciate that you are accountable and that the lines of direction lead to the Solicitor General's office.
Do you, then, meet with Mr. Gray on a scheduled basis? For example, do you meet with him once a month?
Commr Murray: Usually more than that. Normally we meet once a week. But it never involves the details of ongoing investigations. Those meetings deal with the larger issues of budgetary considerations and the general policies of the force. Under no circumstances do they ever involve the details of ongoing criminal investigations. That's clearly beyond that line in the sand that we talked about.
Mr. Gallaway: Do others within the RCMP meet with either ministers or political staff on a regular basis?
Commr Murray: No.
Mr. Gallaway: I'll move on from that, then.
I want to ask you about an issue that I think is becoming a question, particularly in the province in Ontario. It's about what you call contract policing. Mr. Harris in Ontario is signalling that he will in fact move to download more policing costs onto communities. You were here last year, and I remember that we had a discussion about, I believe, the 70-30 -
Commr Murray: The 70-30 split.
Mr. Gallaway: - split. At that time you indicated to me that the 30%, which was paid for by all the taxpayers of Canada, was in fact a reasonable apportionment of federal duties within provinces; in other words, federal policing responsibilities within the provinces. There are those who would suggest that this wouldn't be true in the province of Ontario because, due to restructuring of the organization, we've seen a marked decrease in the number of RCMP officers and there has been a reduction of their presence in Ontario.
Would you consider, then, changing that 70-30 split to perhaps 80-20? This would mean more dollars to the federal coffers, albeit that it would mean more provincial tax dollars in those provinces in which you have contract policing.
Commr Murray: There are a number of issues there, and I'll try to touch on all of them.
First, in relation to the 70-30 split, this is a 20-year contract between the federal government and the eight contracting provinces and the two territorial governments for provincial policing services. For municipal policing services within those eight provinces, the split is 90% municipal and 10% federal.
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The rationale for the split goes beyond the amount of federal work that is done by those provincial policing resources. There are the larger issues, which I addressed in my opening remarks, about the availability of a large base of resources to deal with the major events that may occur across the country and that may also be used for emergencies in one part of the country or another.
For example, there's a provision in those contracts that at any time 10% of those resources can be removed from the province to attend to matters in other parts of Canada. There are certainly all sorts of illustrations of that occurring.
Just by way of general observation, if you didn't have that large body of federal resources available, the only alternative would be the military. As a matter of fact, between the time of Confederation and the Second World War, in terms of aid to the civil power, the military was called out something like 101 times. Since the Second World War they have been called out on only three occasions, and the reason is that there is now this base of RCMP resources all over Canada that can be called upon to deal with emergencies as they occur in other parts of the nation.
The other thing relates specifically to Ontario. We have not reduced the numbers of resources significantly in the province of Ontario. We've reallocated and we've reconfigured the organization in Ontario to maximize the utilization of those resources.
We are in the process of absorbing $105 million worth of cuts in our federal programs. Obviously Ontario is affected, as is every other province, but because we only do federal policing in Ontario there are more federal resources there than there are in most other provinces. Consequently the impact in Ontario was greater, but proportionately they were not affected any more than any other province was.
There's another thing. Let's use British Columbia as an example. If we were not in contract policing in British Columbia, proportionately it would cost the federal government more than it does now to allocate an amount of federal resources in British Columbia equivalent to what they have in Ontario, in terms of what it costs to pay for part of the provincial and municipal policing services, because the expectation is that those individuals are in fact doing some federal work. On balance, it's in the federal interest to keep the arrangement the way it is.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Langlois, five minutes.
[Translation]
Mr. Langlois: I'll conclude with the topic I brought up a little earlier. You said there had been surveys among members of the Force. I understood these surveys covered only RCMP officers, but perhaps they were broader than I thought. Could you please give us - as soon as possible - the results of these surveys, a breakdown by division, and indicate the groups targeted by surveys to determine whether members of the Force wanted to keep their current divisional representation system or to form a union?
Commissioner Murray: This was not an official survey. But as far as we know, some 10% of RCMP officers are members of division association. We did not conduct special surveys to determine how many members of the Force would be interested in forming a union.
Deputy Minister Beaulac: We never did a survey.
Mr. Langlois: So this is just an impression you have by talking with officers day to day.
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Deputy Commissioner Beaulac: That's right, this is information we have acquired by talking to people in the association. In any case, they are not uncomfortable telling us they are part of an association.
Mr. Langlois: I am asking these questions because I want to ensure that labour relations at the RCMP won't come to a point - as they could in the very near future - where they will slowly damage the RCMP's image. At the moment, the RCMP has an excellent and highly professional image. Training for RCMP officers is among the best of that in any police force.
But there seems to be a problem. Are some people just activists? Is there a problem because the majority are not in fact being represented? We'll never know if there isn't some kind of organized survey at the RCMP, a survey that will give members of the Force a chance to say what kind of system they really want to have. The best way of doing this is by secret ballot.
Right now, there seems to be a marked difference of opinion - I don't want to say dichotomy - between the staff and the officers, or at least some officers. It seems we can't establish exactly how many. We have to rely on intuition and impression. I would like officers to be given an opportunity to say what kind of system they want to have. I would like them to be given this opportunity in the near future - this will make it much easier for legislators to formulate legislation that affects their working environment.
This kind of arrangement would also make it much easier for the staff to do its job. The staff is flexible as well, and can adapt to new situations, provided they understand what members of the Force really want.
Let's change the subject for a moment. In April of this year, the Solicitor General - Herb Gray - announced that the RCMP would no longer be responsible for security in Canada airports. Have any concrete measures been taken in that regard?
Commissioner Murray: Yes. As I said in my remarks, we have started delegating responsibility for airport security to the management of individual international airports. I think the process will take until July 1, 1997. We are in the process of organizing a transition team in cooperation with Transport Canada, individual airports and RCMP officers. Relations with individual airports are very good at present. I'm very optimistic about the process, and I am sure we will complete the transition phase by July 1, 1997.
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Torsney): Mr. Discepola, you have five minutes.
Mr. Discepola (Vaudreuil): Mr. Allen, I am a little concerned by your remarks on the bilingual bonus. You said there were some thirty people you couldn't find.
[English]
I thought the Mounties always got their man, but maybe you can't get your own man. I only have five minutes, so I really don't want to dwell on this, but I found it very curious.
I want to dwell on your part III expenditure plan, which calls for the reorganization of the police forces, but only from the point of view of concern I have as an elected official, because when I see it in your plan, it obviously means you are probably well advanced.
I participated in what has now turned out to be a six-year review of the Montreal Urban Community police force, which has 4,500 members. It took three years for the elected officials to get together. Then we got together with the police commissioners and others. It has been three years and still it is not implemented because I think there has been a lack of coordination and discussion with the stakeholders in charge.
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I've talked to several Quebec members of your police force, and they've expressed tremendous concern about the type of service that could be provided in Quebec, for example, when you are considering regrouping the provincial offices of Ontario and Quebec.
So I'm wondering how far advanced you are in this regional restructuring. Understand that I share, as do all police services across Canada, the need to try to get community policing down to the basic level, because it has tremendous advantages. However, notwithstanding the cost-benefits that might arise from it, concerns have been expressed that perhaps the stakeholders, including politicians, have not been fully consulted.
So not having been able to participate in it, I become concerned when I see it in your expenditure plan. As well, your members have expressed this same concern. So I'd like to know how far advanced you are with this.
Commr Murray: We're really only at the beginning of the process and I think you're absolutely right. Consultation with all stakeholders is fundamentally important in this process. This is what we are now doing.
I also want to make it extremely clear. I'll ask Deputy Commissioner Beaulac to comment, because he is responsible for this particular area and he can bring you up to date on what has actually gone on in this central region. Operationally, the responsibility will remain with the commanding officer of C Division in Quebec.
What we're talking about here is an administrative consolidation. The operations will be delivered as they always have been. In fact, the whole idea here is to be able to redistribute the savings to front-line operational police officers. So what we're trying to do is streamline our administration in very difficult fiscal times in order to be able to facilitate a better operational response capability.
Specifically, Deputy Commissioner Beaulac, maybe you could just outline some of the discussions you have already had in Quebec.
D/Commr Beaulac: First of all, I want to expand on what the commissioner just mentioned. The decision made by senior management of the force was not only to share in the administrative services of the RCMP but also to look very seriously at how we do business within the force. In other words, we are a command and control organization and we wish to move to a more shared decision-making process. By designing the country, by dividing the country into regions, it would allow those regions to have a say at the table when decisions are taken on a national scale.
[Translation]
Mr. Discepola: Why would you combine Ontario and Quebec? What would you have four regions instead of five?
Deputy Commissioner Beaulac: In staff meetings across Canada, we arrived at the conclusion that the RCMP's structure had to be changed, and limited to four regions. We might have concluded there should be three regions, or five regions. This decision was made by some one hundred people at the RCMP. The Commissioner then appointed Deputy Commissioners, who are to be in charge of the transition period and start up a consultation process. We are currently consulting all employees to have their suggestions on the reorganization required for the RCMP to fulfil its mandate.
We did discuss the possibility of having more than four regions, particularly during meetings I had with officers from Quebec and Ontario. I said it was up to them to formulate models of the organization required for us to fulfil our mandate. Nothing is definite yet. The models that our employees put forward at meetings will be discussed, and will be submitted for consideration to all RCMP employees in the summer or fall.
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We'll be asking employees whether they agree with the notion of dividing the RCMP into four regions, or whether they would prefer five... and if so, why. The final decision will be made once employees, management and stakeholders come up with model structures and study them. No decision has yet been made - we are still at the beginning of the consultation process.
[English]
Mr. Discepola: How much time do I have, Madam Chair?
The Chair: Three minutes.
Mr. Discepola: May I make one comment?
The Chair: No.
Mr. Discepola: Thirty seconds?
The Chair: No. We'll get back to you. Mr. Ramsay is next.
Mr. Ramsay (Crowfoot): Commissioner Murray, there was an indication on this Airbus matter that the lawyers representing the government, as well as counsel for Mr. Mulroney, were discussing an out-of-court settlement. That suggests to me that there is no real evidence againstMr. Mulroney. What does the suggestion of an out-of-court settlement mean to you?
Commr Murray: It's important to recognize that there are really two entirely separate processes here. There's a civil suit that has been undertaken by Mr. Mulroney dealing with the allegations that were made in a letter that went to the Swiss government, and there's an ongoing criminal investigation. Regardless of what may happen in the civil suit, it really has no impact whatsoever in terms of how that criminal investigation is proceeding. If Mr. Mulroney and the Government of Canada come to some resolution in relation to the civil suit, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the criminal investigation. So they're two entirely different processes. I can't emphasize that enough. I recognize that somehow these things have a tendency to get confused when so many things are occurring at once, but very clearly the two are separate.
Perhaps I could ask Assistant Commissioner Ryan to -
The Chair: Mr. Ramsay, Assistant Commissioner Ryan has something to add. I think they should be allowed to give their full answer.
Mr. Ramsay: You're eating into my five minutes, Madam Chair.
The Chair: Well, you know I will do that if you cut witnesses off.
Assistant Commissioner T. Ryan (Federal Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): I totally agree with what the commissioner has said: they're two totally different and distinct processes. The criminal process is totally separate and distinct from the civil process and the one has no bearing on the other.
Mr. Ramsay: But we all know that the civil suit arose out of actions taken by the criminal investigation. If there had been no criminal investigation into this Airbus thing, then there would be no lawsuit. I think that is clear.
My question, then, is this: is there a sharing of information between the RCMP and the lawyers representing the government and the RCMP in this lawsuit?
Commr Murray: When you talk about the sharing of information, are you talking about the details of the criminal investigation?
Mr. Ramsay: Yes.
Commr Murray: In order for the lawyers for the RCMP to prepare their defence in relation to this lawsuit, it's obvious that the lawyers have had to be aware of the details of the criminal investigation up until the time that particular letter went. What has happened since that time the lawyers representing the RCMP have not been privy to, because, as we indicated in the previous response, that ongoing criminal investigation and the civil process are two different things. So what has occurred since then they have not been privy to.
Mr. Ramsay: This is an unprecedented situation. I have never seen before where the courts would allow a civil suit to proceed before a criminal investigation that spawned it, if I can use that term, is complete.
So I would like to ask you this: has the initiation of that lawsuit interfered with the criminal investigation?
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Commr Murray: It has not interfered whatsoever, and the reason is that should the civil suit proceed prior to the criminal investigation being completed, there is provision in the Canada Evidence Act to object if details of the criminal investigation are required in order to present a proper defence. Of course, it is up to the discretion of the court as to whether or not it will recognize that objection. So one still has that option available should it come to that, but there's nothing at this particular time to indicate that will happen, because a trial date has not in fact been set.
Mr. Ramsay: I'm out of time.
The Chair: Just about. I'll accommodate you with the time I used if you want to ask one more question.
Mr. Ramsay: Thank you. No, that's fine.
The Chair: What a reasonable guy.
Mr. Gallaway.
Mr. Gallaway: Thanks, Madam Chair. I just have one specific question, and then perhaps I can share the rest of my time with Mr. Discepola.
The Chair: Or you can share it with someone I, as chair, might choose.
Mr. Gallaway: Sorry.
Commissioner Murray, you indicated that your meetings with ministers, specifically with the Solicitor General -
Mr. Ramsay: On a point of order, Madam Chair, Mr. Gallaway is sitting so far from his mike I can't hear him.
Mr. Gallaway: I understand.
You indicated that in your weekly meetings - or at whatever interval they occur - with the Solicitor General and with the Minister of Justice, whenever they might occur, you discuss administrative matters and that you don't discuss cases because there are thousands of cases.
Last year the Prime Minister's house was broken into and the RCMP investigated. In fact, there were questions about the investigation of that break-in in the House of Commons, and on occasion the Solicitor General replied to those questions, and on occasion, as I recall, perhaps the Minister of Justice replied.
If your meetings are of an administrative nature and if people under your control are not dealing with other people in the political process, how is it that the Solicitor General answered these questions? Did the Solicitor General read about them in The Globe and Mail, The Toronto Star, The Toronto Sun or did he see it on CTV? There has to be something somewhere. How do they know?
Commr Murray: It's almost similar to the situation we were just talking about earlier. Here there were two different processes. One, there was a criminal investigation in relation to the act itself, the intrusion of the Prime Minister's house. The Solicitor General had no knowledge of that particular criminal investigation that was in fact undertaken by the RCMP.
However, an internal investigation was completed. It was an administrative review to deal with the policies and practices that were in place at the time. Obviously Mr. Gray, as the minister, had a responsibility in relation to the adequacy of the policies, the procedures, and the equipment in place. Quite rightfully, he dealt with that aspect of it after the fact, but to this day he is not aware of the aspects of the criminal investigation because it continues and it's before the courts.
Mr. Gallaway: Then, with respect to the broad details, for example, like the name of the accused and the date and time of the occurrence - those rather mundane details - would the Solicitor General then receive a specific note either from you or from someone in your control? Or is he aware of it because the Prime Minister was the complainant, and therefore, where are the details? There must be some paper passing somewhere.
Commr Murray: There are many contentious issues and there are many contentious cases that are ongoing and are obviously in the public domain. They're before the media. There are all kinds of cases occurring in different provinces relating to a whole series of different things that are ongoing investigations.
The minister will occasionally be asked to respond in the House and he is placed in a position to make an adequate response without getting into any of the nature of the details of the investigation by merely confirming that there is an ongoing investigation and that he cannot respond for that very reason. But that is in situations that are already in the public domain, as opposed to something that we would advise him of that is not in the public domain.
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Mr. Gallaway: The example I'm using, though, is in the public domain. Would your office then prepare for the Solicitor General some sort of brief synopsis of what occurred?
Commr Murray: In relation to -
Mr. Gallaway: In relation to the example I recited, the break-in at 24 Sussex.
Commr Murray: Insofar as our procedures were concerned, yes; insofar as the criminal investigation was concerned, no.
Mr. Gallaway: Would it be possible, then, for the Solicitor General, the Minister of Justice, or political staff to request of you or someone within your office a briefing that would in fact go beyond the scope of general details of the case?
Commr Murray: If they did request it, the answer would be no.
Mr. Gallaway: Have you ever received such a request?
Commr Murray: No, I haven't.
The Chair: Mr. Langlois.
[Translation]
Mr. Langlois: I'd like to come back to the question I left you with before. Replacing RCMP officers in airports. You said that RCMP officers at international airports will have been replaced by this time next year.
Here is my concern. International airports are the most important points of entry into Canada for anyone coming in from abroad. The three main airports are Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. In your opinion, will it be possible to maintain the same security level in major Canadian airports once RCMP officers are replaced by contract personnel or personnel with a different status?
Commissioner Murray: There are two aspects involved here: the first is security and the second is responding to alarm. At present, we are responsible for security. We are also responsible for responding to any terrorist act. The RCMP is responsible for responding to such incidents. After the transition, we will try to improve our anti-terrorist response in our airports.
We are now trying to determine exactly what resources will be required in each airport, including Dorval and Mirabel. We are putting an extra $8 million into efforts to improve our anti-terrorist response. However, $38 million have been cut from the budget - and that's the current cost of the security in the airports.
In some airports, the anti-drug, customs and immigration squads will remain intact. We are just talking about security - response to alarm. There will be regulations under the Transport Act. Each individual airport will be responsible for implementing a security system in compliance with the regulations.
Mr. Langlois: Will any RCMP officers' position be eliminated as a result of the RCMP's withdrawal from airport security?
Commissioner Murray: Yes, some will. Our budget has been cut by $38 million but we have enough resources to place personnel in other positions. We also have a workforce adjustment program. For example, if a member of the Force wants to retire, he can. He can also chose to remain in the Force.
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Mr. Langlois: I would like you to be more specific. On the one hand, you say that your budget has been cut by $38 million. On the other hand, you say you have additional funding of $8 million for some services. I am having trouble understanding the distinction between the two. Could you please be more specific?
Commissioner Murray: The airport program had a budget of $46 million. The difference between the two - $8 million - will be used to improve our anti-terrorist system for the future.
Mr. Langlois: Thank you. The question I'm about to ask, you have already answered in part: this means that Canadians can continue to expect the same security, the same level of service - from private sector contract personnel - in the areas of anti-terrorism and anti-drug activities and in-screening for people trying to enter Canada illegally for reasons other than terrorism. I'm talking about illegal immigrants - people who come in seeking a status to which they are not entitled, or who want benefits other countries do not offer. So we will still be protected?
Commissioner Murray: The current system will remain in place: our anti-drug squad, immigration and customs personnel will remain the same. There will be no changes there.
Mr. Langlois: I would like to change the subject completely, but it seems my time is up.
[English]
Ms Torsney (Burlington): It's too bad. I have two other issues I wanted to follow up with you, because I'm really interested in this airport policy as well, and having benefited from a very friendly and helpful RCMP officer in Dorval Airport recently who helped me out on an issue, I really am going to miss seeing your presence in our international airports. I wish we could figure another way around the budget cuts.
I wanted to ask you about organized crime, particularly as it relates to Russia and eastern Europe and the activities that have been taking place in Canada. Obviously there have been reports in the media. How widespread are these groups operating in Canada? Where are our problems? Could you elaborate?
Commr Murray: It's certainly an excellent question. I'll ask Mr. Ryan to answer in more detail.
It's something we recognized shortly after the demise of the former Soviet Union. In 1992 we set up a task force in southern Ontario to address the emergence of organized crime, individuals and groups, because a lot of dollars flowed out of the former Soviet Union immediately after the changeover and a lot of them flowed into southern Ontario. We were able to get a handle on that very quickly, to the point where that has now expanded into a full-time squad of personnel we redeployed from other functions in order to be able to accommodate that.
I had the opportunity to go to Moscow in April of this year and discuss with the minister of the interior and senior officials in Russia the possibility of having a liaison office in Russia and to determine their willingness to share information in order that we could accommodate our needs not only in southern Ontario but because of an expanding problem in other parts of the country. I'm happy to say they were extremely cooperative. We're moving in that direction a little later this year. Until this time we've been covering it from London and it's just been impractical and virtually impossible to build the kind of relationships that are necessary.
Terry, perhaps you could pick up a little more specifically how that program has evolved over the past three or four years, and the sheer extent of that growing concern.
A/Commr Ryan: As the commissioner mentioned, we have a growing task force in Toronto concentrating on eastern European organized crime. It's clear these groups have made an impact in Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver, with definite connections into the United States and into Russia. They're involved in every aspect of criminal activity, from drug importation to extortion and right down to the street level - petty crime.
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Some of the criminal activity is our responsibility and some is the responsibility of other agencies, but it is very much a growing concern to both Canada and the United States. We're working with our international partners through joint efforts and joint meetings, trying to develop international strategies to deal with it, exchange of intelligence in particular, and again joint task forces involving multi-nations, because it is very much a concern.
Ms Torsney: I think the Milton detachment does a lot of work in the area of the economic and electronic crime that's taking place now. Is that an area of concentration now that you're putting in extra resources?
Commr Murray: There's absolutely no question about the growing problem in high-tech crime. That's a specialty of Assistant Commissioner Ryan.
Perhaps you could provide some details in that regard.
A/Commr Ryan: We're very concerned about the advance in the last couple of years of technological crime in everything from the manufacturing of credit cards to the use of telecommunications equipment, the misuse or abuse of cellular phones, the use of the Internet as a means of criminal communication and transportation of pornography, and so on. We have a group that continually looks at that area. We're working again through Interpol.
At its last meeting in May, Interpol formed some international working groups. One is the International Group Representing the Americas. We're a part of that group, working with the United States and South and Latin America to develop techniques in monitoring and investigating this type of activity.
We're also working with another international group out of Interpol - as a matter of fact, they're meeting in Canada here now - the working group to try to devise a method of uniform reporting and dealing with the use of credit cards, because the manufacture and use of credit cards in fraudulent operations is becoming a very serious concern and is an extremely lucrative area. We're working on that as well.
So we're working on a number of fields. It's extremely difficult.
There's new legislation in one of the bills before the House now to deal with the manufacture of credit cards, the possession of equipment to manufacture credit cards, which addresses a problem at present.
In relation to the Internet and the use of the Internet, that is an extremely difficult area to do anything with simply because of the way in which the communications system works and how they use the Internet to hide the source of much of their material.
You're probably aware of a recent decision of one of the courts in the United States that indicates that the use of the Internet is merely a means of communication and any laws that deal with that means of communication in the United States could be deemed to be an infringement of freedom of speech. This could add another area of concern to dealing with criminal activity on the Internet.
Ms Torsney: I wish you luck in the work on that front, because I think it's a big concern.
The Chair: That's seven minutes - the equivalent of five Ramsay minutes.
Mr. Ramsay, it's your turn. Hurry.
Mr. Ramsay: I have just one question, and then I'll pass the rest of my time over to Mr. Hanger.
The Chair: That's fine.
Mr. Ramsay: I will follow up where I was cut off on my last round.
Commissioner Murray, if the continuing investigation of the RCMP into the Airbus matter reveals evidence that supports or substantiates the allegations or suspicions raised in the letter to the Swiss authority against Mr. Mulroney, is it not incumbent upon the RCMP to turn that evidence over to the lawyers representing and defending the government against the $50 million lawsuit?
Commr Murray: As I mentioned earlier, the lawsuit deals with the letter that was sent over last fall. It doesn't deal with subsequent investigation that followed therefrom.
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To respond specifically to your scenario is rather hypothetical. I'm not really in a position to respond to how something like that might emerge after something is in the public domain, but as long as a criminal investigation is ongoing, it is not in the public domain. It functions on a need-to-know basis. It would be simply inappropriate, in my view, to share that beyond a strict need-to-know basis. So the integrity of the criminal investigation is paramount as it proceeds.
To go back to the earlier point, there are really two different processes here: there's the criminal investigation and there's a civil action. The two are clearly two different issues. While on the surface they may appear to be conflicting with each other, in reality, they're not.
Mr. Ramsay: Here's my final question. What you're suggesting here is that we may haveMr. Mulroney winning his lawsuit, while at the same time sufficient evidence could be gathered by the RCMP in their investigation to charge and convict him. I don't understand that.
Commr Murray: That decision is not for me to take; that's a decision for a court to take.
Mr. Ramsay: But if there's no sharing of information, then that's what it could result in. If you can't share the information that would substantiate the original allegations within the letter that was the basis for the launching of the lawsuit -
Commr Murray: I said earlier that as long as the investigation is continuing, it's not in the public domain. If at some point in time it became public through a prosecution - that's if that were to arrive, but I don't know that it will - then that would be in the public domain and it would be a different situation than that which exists today.
The criminal investigation will continue as it has without overflowing into the civil action.
Mr. Ramsay: I thank you for your answer, Commissioner Murray.
The Chair: Mr. Hanger, you have about a minute and a half.
Mr. Hanger: Thank you, Jack.
That Airbus situation certainly leaves a lot of questions. One has to wonder who's going to take the fall for it if it doesn't come through as expected or if Mr. Mulroney's suit falls in finality before the investigation is complete. Somebody is going to pay the price, such as the taxpayers, obviously, in some respects, if the judgment is found in his favour.
I wanted to ask questions about the smuggling problems. Cornwall and the Akwesasne reserve have certainly been on the map a lot in reference to smuggling. Sago cigarettes are being distributed across the country illegally. There's a policing problem in the town of Bosanquet that at present, I understand, has been turned over to the native police force to administer. Yet there isn't adequate policing over there, and the residents are extremely disturbed by it.
I'm wondering where the RCMP is in this whole affair, since the RCMP has had its hands in native policing affairs since the beginning of time, and there seems to be no action taken against those who are committing these illegal acts.
Commr Murray: I'll ask Mr. Ryan to deal specifically with that issue, but I did want to respond to your other comment about taking the fall without letting it pass.
We receive allegations on a daily basis from all kinds of people. We undertake investigations. Sometimes they end up with charges being laid, sometimes they don't.
It seems to me that it is a fundamental cornerstone of a democracy to have an independent police agency to undertake investigations and to come to conclusions as to whether or not there's sufficient evidence to lay charges. Whenever there is enough, we do, and whenever there isn't, we don't. That goes on day in and day out.
This case is no different. I think it's fundamentally important for the integrity of that investigation to be protected.
I'll perhaps now ask Mr. Ryan to deal specifically with that issue.
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A/Commr Ryan: On the smuggling issue, you didn't mention whether you were dealing with drugs, alcohol, tobacco, or what have you, but I'll deal with the alcohol-tobacco issue, because you mentioned Akwesasne.
As a result of the government's anti-smuggling initiative we were allocated considerable funds to deal with that problem. As a result of that we enhanced our resources considerably across Canada, and particularly in the Cornwall area. When you look at the situation from two years or two and a half ago to the situation today, there are no two ways about it, the situation has improved drastically. We have a considerable number of officers concentrated totally in the Cornwall area, as do other police departments. With Revenue Canada, Customs we feel the situation has improved drastically.
About the anti-smuggling initiative, we have had a considerable number of successes across Canada in the last while, in particular one that operated in Ontario and Quebec and that terminated within the last few months. We've arrested some 169 individuals and seized in excess, I think, of$30 million in cigarettes, alcohol, and cash or assets. We have clearly displayed that organized crime is heavily involved in the smuggling of alcohol and tobacco.
The selling of cigarettes has shifted from small stores, small operations, to larger, organized crime types of operations. A problem has also surfaced because of the variance in cigarette prices from one province to another. There's now a problem in the transportation of cigarette products from one province to another because of the difference in price.
I would say we're making considerable successes in that area. It's through the efforts of the anti-smuggling initiative and the funds given to that program.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Hanger. That's about eight Ramsay minutes there.
I want to piggyback on that for a minute. One of my favourite topics is the question of taxation of alcohol. If the finance ministers of provinces and the federal government were to get together and cut a deal to lower the tax on distilled spirits, would that help in dealing with the smuggling issue?
Commr Murray: I'll let Terry deal with the matter -
The Chair: A simple yes would do.
Commr Murray: It's a complicated issue, in the sense that we knew when the taxes were lowered on cigarettes the organized crime networks were already in place and we knew they would move to other commodities. That's exactly what has happened.
I think your statistics would confirm that, Terry, if you want to pick it up.
A/Commr Ryan: Yes, the statistics very clearly indicated the drop in the price of the cigarettes had a major impact on the smuggling activity. If you draw the similarity to what would happen in relation to alcohol, yes, it probably would have an impact as well, because there's a considerable variance between the Canadian price and the American price. It's difficult to say exactly what would happen in a hypothetical situation. But if you base it on what happened with cigarettes, there would be an impact.
The Chair: Thank you so much. Could I just have that typed up?
Gentlemen, we're over time. Would you mind staying for a few more minutes? There are more people who would like to ask questions.
Commr Murray: Sure.
The Chair: Mr. Maloney.
Mr. Maloney (Erie): Commissioner Murray, approximately a year ago, I believe, the RCMP entered into a contractual relationship with the Disney group. Can you give us an idea how much money this has generated? Does this money flow to the RCMP or the Solicitor General? What are these funds used for?
Commr Murray: Yes, I'd be happy to give you a response.
First of all, to clarify the situation, the arrangement with Disney Canada is through the Mounted Police Foundation and not directly with the RCMP. The Mounted Police Foundation was created to create an arm's length relationship so the funding that was received through the licensing program could be reallocated directly into crime prevention, community-based programs across Canada. If it was created in an atmosphere whereby the money was coming directly to the RCMP, then under the Financial Administration Act it would have to go into the consolidated revenue fund, as opposed to us having the authority to reallocate it. Hence the foundation was created to operate the licensing program. They entered into an arrangement with Disney to be responsible for the licensing program on their behalf and for the marketing.
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But I want to make it clear that the RCMP remains responsible for the product. There have been some suggestions that the RCMP has sold their image to Disney. I want to assure everyone this is not the case. Every licensed product is approved by the RCMP before it is entered into production.
Disney has licensed 40 or 41 companies. All but one of them are in Canada. The reason one is not in Canada is that the particular product is not available in Canada. This is why there is an American company for a particular line of product. This is a very small line, by the way. The rest have all created jobs in Canada for Canadian manufacturing corporations.
We have achieved our objective of getting the poor-quality products off the market. The products being produced are reflective of the image we are trying to project. So far, we have been able to allocate $126,000 in funding to communities right across the country. To small communities, $8,000, $10,000 or $15,000 is extremely important in providing seed money to an initiative. It is going very well and growing considerably.
We're very pleased with the way it's emerged. It has become a win-win situation. It has created jobs in Canada. It has cleaned up the product line. It has provided dollars for community-based initiatives. So we're extremely pleased with how it has gone so far.
Mr. Maloney: Thank you.
Assistant Commissioner Ryan, I would like to direct a question to you further to Ms Torsney's line of questioning.
Do we have any evidence of weapons, plutonium, or anything of this nature flowing to Canada from Russia or the European bloc countries? Are we concerned from a terrorist point of view?
A/Commr Ryan: To my knowledge, I can't say yes. Actually, I don't have any in-depth knowledge on the issue, so I would like to defer the question.
Mr. Maloney: Okay. My last question is this. I noticed in your report, Commissioner Murray, the fees under the proceeds-of-crime legislation increased by 33% last year. Do you anticipate further increases this year? Does this go into the consolidated revenue fund? Is it having an impact on activities against crime?
Commr Murray: There is no question, in our view, that this is where the future is in attacking organized crime. We have a proposal to significantly enhance our proceeds-of-crime initiative. We have an integrated enforcement unit right now in Toronto, another one in Montreal and another one on Vancouver. We have a proposal to increase this to 13 cities because it has been so successful.
Where we've been able to remove the assets of major organized crime figures is really where we have had an impact. We have to date been very successful and have had support from the courts not only in initially freezing those assets but also in subsequently ordering them into the Crown.
And you're right, it does go into the consolidated revenue fund at the end of the process.
Mr. Maloney: Thank you, Madam Chair.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Maloney.
Mr. Langlois, you have five minutes.
[Translation]
Mr. Langlois: Do you have any RCMP officers assigned to Kahnawake to keep the peace or to fulfil other duties?
Commissioner Murray: No, not directly. However, there is an agreement among the governments of Canada, the government of Quebec and Mr. Norton - the Kahnawake band chief - to provide policing services.
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There is a local police in Kahnawake, but there are talks under way with a view to implementing some cooperative effort involving the RCMP, the Sûreté du Québec and the local police. We are certainly cooperating more than we did in the past, and the system is working well.
Mr. Langlois: Could you tell me a little more about these agreements? When would the Sûreté du Québec be called upon to intervene in the reserve. When would the RCMP be called? Is the RCMP station serving the reserve located in Kahnawake itself, or is it off reserve?
Commissioner Murray: There is a local police for the reserve itself. The agreement between the federal and provincial governments and the Kahnawake band provides for cost sharing: the federal government pays 52% and the Quebec government 48% of the cost. The agreements provide for cooperation among the RCMP, Sûreté du Québec and local Kahnawake police. The current arrangement is a significant improvement over the way things were before. Before, there was hardly any contact or cooperation.
Mr. Langlois: Are we talking about an agreement, or just the cost sharing arrangement to pay for peacekeepers on the reserve? Are RCMP officers paid for under those same arrangement?
Commissioner Murray: That's the same kind of arrangement that's being made elsewhere in Canada: it's an agreement between aboriginal bands and both levels of government - the federal government and the provincial government. But in each agreement, there are specific provisions for specific reserves, for example, Kahnawake. The same applies to Akwesasne, but in Akwesasne we also need the Ontario government in the agreement, since the reserve straddles Quebec and Ontario. So in Akwesasne's case, parties to the agreement include Ontario, Quebec, the federal government - and, by extension, the RCMP, OPP, Sûreté du Québec and Akwesasne local police force.
Mr. Langlois: I want to come back to a point raised before. In your answer, you said that the RCMP's budget had been cut by $38 million. I would like to know what targets were reached by these cuts in terms of human resources, services and realty. In concrete terms, what impact have the cuts had on the RCMP?
Deputy Commissioner Allen: There are approximately 600 RCMP employees working in airports. The cuts will affect members of the Force, some public service employees, and some civilian employees. The RCMP's withdrawal from airport security will affect some 600 people currently employed by the RCMP.
Earlier, the Commissioner said that the RCMP could accommodate all employees who wanted to remain employed by the Force. We do have some vacant positions, and we do have employees to want to retire. We believe that we can find a place for all employees who want to stay with the RCMP.
Mr. Langlois: So the 600 employees you are talking about...
[English]
The Chair: That's five minutes.
[Translation]
Mr Langlois: Would you please allow me to finish my question?
[English]
The Chair: All right.
[Translation]
Mr. Langlois: So the 600 employees affected by the cuts will be able to remain with the RCMP. Will this have a negative impact on recruitment - the recruitment of new police officers?
Deputy Commissioner Allen: Re-assigning those 600 employees will clearly have a negative impact on recruitment.
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Mr. Langlois: So the Force will not be renewed, I understand. Thank you.
[English]
Mr. Wells (South Shore): Thank you, gentlemen, for coming.
I've just arrived back from my riding, where I attended the funeral of Sergeant Derek Burkholder. While the representatives are here, I might just take a moment to pay tribute to Sergeant Burkholder, who was shot and killed last Friday at Martins Brook, in Lunenburg County, which is in my riding in Nova Scotia.
While you're here, I'd like to commend Sergeant Burkholder on the record. He was an excellent police officer, as you know, an upstanding citizen, and, by all accounts, a wonderful husband and father. He was a real credit to your force, and he's going to be missed very much by the community and, I know, by your representatives.
I want to thank you personally for attending the funeral - and not only you but hundreds of your members and actually hundreds more from other forces across the country, and Mr. Discepola as well, who represented the Solicitor General.
It was a very sad day in Bridgewater, as you know. As we all heard, the eulogies could only express what the community felt. Again, on behalf of the community, I want to go on the record as recognizing the contribution that Sergeant Burkholder made to the community.
He served in my home town of Chester for a number of years and in many other communities in my riding, including Shelburne and Bridgewater and Lunenburg.
Madam Chair, I thought I would mention that and perhaps explain to the committee why I was not able to be here in the last couple of days during your sessions.
The one question I will have about your estimates, which is the main purpose of your being here today, deals with the impact on the force of the recent DNA amendments to the Criminal Code. I think they're mentioned on page 25 of the estimates. I'm not sure who the expert would be on this particular issue, but perhaps you could advise the committee of what effects these amendments will have on the RCMP and whether or not they've led to an increase in demand upon your expertise in this area. If there has been an increase in demand, have you been able to meet it from your presently available funds?
Commr Murray: Thank you for your very kind remarks about Sergeant Burkholder. Certainly I'll make sure that they'll be passed on to our colleagues in the force and to his family.
We thought we were going to get Deputy Commissioner Bergman off the hook today, but DNA is his area of expertise. We haven't had an opportunity to hear from him. Perhaps this would be a good time.
Deputy Commissioner R.A. Bergman (Atlantic Region, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): Since the legislation was passed, yes, the demand for DNA casework has gone up - very seriously, in fact, to a point where at one time about six months ago we were some 600 to 800 cases behind across the country.
In the last several months we have changed the type of technology being used in two of the laboratories and we're moving toward that in a third laboratory, so the casework processing time has gone from some six or seven weeks down to just a few days. That backlog is dropping. I think it is down to in the area of 400 cases right now.
As we move towards what we call PCR technology in all laboratories, I expect that we'll eventually be able to handle the casework levels. The problem of course is that we have not received increased funding for that program but we've expended corporate funds on that particular process to this point.
Mr. Wells: This is an area of expertise that requires special training. How many people would be in that division of your force, and where would they be located? Are they centrally located in Ottawa, or is it regional?
D/Commr Bergman: We have six labs in Canada - in Halifax, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton, and Vancouver - and there are DNA sections in each of those labs. There are about400 forensic scientists in those labs, and I think there would be in the area of 70 to 80 serologists working on DNA in those various labs.
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Mr. Wells: Under different financial circumstances, would it be an advantage to you to have more people in that division? Are you somewhat restricted in what you can do because of funding?
D/Commr Bergman: We're under extreme financial restraint; in fact, the laboratory budget this year is being reduced by another $1.9 million. At the same time, we're facing the possibility of a DNA data bank initiative, so we're working very aggressively to examine several options for how we might continue to improve and fund the program.
The Chair: There are a few minutes left. Mr. Discepola has one little statement he's just dying to make.
Mr. Discepola: Just one? I have a few questions, since you've given me the opportunity.
Mr. Grace, the information and privacy commissioner, tabled his report last week. Hidden in that report was a comment that in his opinion a royal inquiry into the Air India tragedy would not impede your investigation into the criminal elements of it. I'd like to know if you share that comment, notwithstanding that it's almost 11 years after the fact and publicly we don't know if you're any closer to solving the crime.
Commr Murray: I haven't had an opportunity to read Mr. Grace's conclusions, but I'm given to understand that they relate to some 1991 briefing notes, something from several years back, and are not really current in relation to where the investigation is at the moment.
I have made the point before this committee and personally to Mr. Gray that at a time when we feel, in our professional judgment, that we have insufficient leads to justify the continuation of a viable criminal investigation... It's the kind of file you would never close. If it's not solved it will always be open. But a time comes when there aren't any viable leads left. That is certainly not the stage we are at now.
A little over a year ago, to attempt to rejuvenate the information flow in the community we offered a $1 million reward for information leading to the arrest of an Air India suspect or suspects. The consequence was as we had hoped. It did generate a considerable amount of information, and considerable new information flowed from that. We now have a total of 28 full-time resources working on the Air India case. It is extremely active. We remain optimistic in that investigation.
I still hold the view that a commission of inquiry would in fact hamper the ongoing criminal investigation. I also want to reiterate that I have no objection whatsoever to a commission of inquiry if that's what the government wishes. But we are of the professional view within the RCMP that it would unnecessarily complicate the criminal investigation, which remains viable and actively ongoing.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Discepola.
Gentlemen, we kind of jacked you around in terms of our schedule this week, and we very much appreciate your coming today and staying longer. On behalf of the committee, I want to offer our very sincere condolences for the death you experienced this week.
Commr Murray: Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you for coming.
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Colleagues, I want to wish you all a good summer and I want to say - on the record - thank you to our co-workers in research, our clerical co-workers, our interpreters, our console staff and others. We've given them a pretty rough ride this term and we're very grateful for their support. Thank you.
Mr. Langlois.
[Translation]
Mr. Langlois: I would like to join you in thanking our chief clerk, Mr. Dupuis, whose excellent knowledge of procedure has smoothed the way so well. I would also like to thank his assistant,Ms. Burke, who has given so much of herself. My thanks also go to our researcher, Mr. Rosen, who - in addition to his work with the Subcommittee on National Security - has earned some honourary doctorate for his fancy footwork with our reports.
And thank you, madam Begin, for your participation and for having made our work so much easier. We - or at least I - would not have accomplished a tenth of what we did without you.
Thank you. Have a wonderful summer!
[English]
The Chair: Thanks, Mr. Langlois.
I'm going to enjoy this: we're adjourned!