[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Thursday, April 25, 1996
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[English]
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): Order, please. Mr. Graham, the chair, is in Montreal this afternoon. He is unable to make it back in time for the meeting and he's asked me to chair this meeting today.
The persons who will be presenting comments to us today are going to be talking about Nigeria, which has been a subject of considerable interest to this committee. Last fall we passed a resolution in this committee asking for Shell Canada to come before the committee. A meeting with representatives of Shell Canada and others will be taking place in June and we will be talking about the question of sanctions. As all the members and others know, in the recent talks in London Mr. Axworthy made several statements on this question.
Because of this history, we want to get some briefing from others who are more familiar with the subject than we are. We're pleased to have with us today four representatives of the Christian Association of Nigeria: Reverend Mbang, president; Mr. Wiliams, secretary general; Reverend Kukail, secretary general of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of Nigeria; and Ms Lawrencia Mallam, adviser to the Kaduna Provincial Laity Council.
Mr. Wiliams.
Mr. C.O. Wiliams (Secretary General, Christian Association of Nigeria): We are quite happy to be here today. First of all, we have to express gratitude and appreciation for your allowing us to be here to talk for a few minutes on Nigeria, with particular reference to the Christian Association of Nigeria, CAN, which for almost twenty years now has existed as a formidable force and pressure group in Nigeria. The hospitality we've been receiving since we entered Canada has been superb. We're sure the memory of this hospitality will be with us forever.
The Christian Association of Nigeria was born on August 27, 1976, which means that come August 27 of this year it will be twenty years old. Leaders of diverse joint denominations were summoned to Dodan Barracks on that day, August 27, 1976, because the federal military government wished to ascertain the opinions of church leaders on two elements they wished to introduce into our primary and secondary schools, namely a national pledge and salutation of the national flag. Before that time these two elements had never been part of the morning exercise in those schools, so the federal government wanted to know what the church leaders would feel about them.
Of course it didn't take us much time to okay them. The only unwavering condition we gave was that the usual morning devotion with which the school day used to start would go on and that would come before the recitation of the national pledge or the salutation of the flag.
Immediately after the meeting the various church leaders felt more or less ashamed of themselves. The government could call them together; why, then, had they not been calling one another together?
There and then they decided to go to a place near the Dodan Barracks to deliberate on the possibility of meeting regularly. All the church leaders went to the Catholic secretariat, which was near Dodan Barracks. They met four or five times after that and decided it was important that church denominations of such diverse nature should continue to meet regularly.
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They then tried to toy with some names and decided on CAN, Christian Association of Nigeria. The church leaders are strongly convinced that God ``can'' do something through CAN for Nigeria. That was how CAN was born. Nobody had thought about establishing any such organization.
At first the organization comprised the Roman Catholic Church, the Christian Council of Nigeria and others. The Christian Council of Nigeria consists of the main-line churches - the old accredited Protestant churches, Methodist, Anglican, Baptist, Salvation Army, Presbyterian and so on - and some affiliated organizations such as the YMCA, YWCA and the Boys' Brigade. These others after some time pressed for a definition of ``others'', that we should identify the various church groups in ``others''. So we had to revise the original constitution we had formulated.
Now CAN consists of five major groups. There is the Roman Catholic Church as a group, the Christian Council of Nigeria, and the Christian Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria or CPFN/PFN, PFN being the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria. The Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria broke away from the Christian Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria, but for our own purposes we decided to lump the two together.
Then we have the Organization of African Instituted Churches. These are churches founded by Nigerians; they do not have any affiliation to any group abroad. For instance, the Anglican Church has dealings with the Church of England, the Catholic Church with Rome and so on. But in the Organization of African Instituted Churches you have churches that were founded by Nigerians in Nigeria, with no link whatsoever to outside organizations.
Then we have the ECWA/TEKAN Fellowship. ECWA is the abbreviated form of Evangelical Church of West Africa. It used to be called SIM, Sudan Interior Mission. As for TEKAN, this fellowship exists mainly in the north, although it has one or two churches in the south.
So briefly, that is the organization called CAN. It is now an almost all-embracing ecumenical umbrella for the churches in Nigeria. We do not as a rule deal with individual churches. If any church wishes to join the Christian Association of Nigeria, all that church needs to do is join one of the five groups and automatically it is in CAN.
One of the objectives of CAN is to be a watchdog of the nation. This role, we thank God, the association has been playing creditably. Because of its fellowship it has become a really formidable organization. Over the years we have watched the goings-on in Nigeria, and whenever we find anything going on that is wrong, that is detrimental not only to the Christian faith but to the welfare of the generality of Nigerians, we shout out. We either make press statements or we call a press conference and present strongly worded memoranda, copies of which are usually sent to the powers that be.
It has come to a stage where not only Christians in Nigeria but non-Christians now look up to CAN to be the national conscience. Take, for instance, the June 12 annulment of the election. Abiola, the winner of the election, is a Muslim; in fact, he is the vice-chairman of the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs.
But for us that is irrelevant; the religion to which he belongs is totally irrelevant. For us, a free and fair election has been held, somebody has emerged as the winner, and because we uphold strong democratic principles and philosophy we insisted that the winner should be accorded his success. That has impressed a lot of people, because they felt that the Muslims should really be the first people to shout out and champion Abiola's cause.
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But the way CAN has gone on uncompromisingly to tell the government that this annulment is wrong and they cannot do that has impressed many people. Therefore they now look up to CAN, which has been speaking fearlessly to champion their cause. Especially now that most of the other organizations like the CLO, the Nigeria Bar Association, Nigerian Union of Teachers, and so on have more or less been banned by the government, CAN remains the only formidable organization that can speak out.
For that reason, it now requires a structure that will ensure that it fulfils the expectations of the people and also ensure that such bodies as the Nigeria Bar Association, CLO, and so on are made to perform their functions in the society.
At this stage, I would like to pass the ball to the president to say more.
The Reverend Sunday Mbang (President, Christian Association of Nigeria): Mr. Chairman, let me thank all of you for giving us this opportunity to speak to you. The secretary has already thanked you so that you can pass this on to the Canadian people. The reception we've had since we entered Canada on Saturday has been something we will never forget. Most of us have travelled around a bit because we are also heads of churches in our own right. So we thank you very much for this time you have given to us.
You will want to know why we have come to Canada. I'm sure that's the most important thing. I'm very sure the people of Canada are very aware of what is happening in Nigeria now. The experience we are having is such that it needs more than just speaking about it.
Infrastructural things have broken down. The roads are nowhere to be found; all the roads are bad. The schools are nothing to write home about. The hospitals are in a deplorable situation. There is so much corruption in the land. There is despair, and all of the things that can make for hopelessness in a place.
We borrowed a leaf from the experiences of people elsewhere. We realize that what South Africa achieved was not achieved alone. I'm sure Canada was one of the greatest countries that helped South Africa be what it is today.
We have reached a stage of being an organization in the country that everybody looks to for salvation. Unfortunately, we don't know what to do to bring this salvation about. The situation in Nigeria requires a two-pronged attack: a long-term attack and a short-term attack.
As church people, we are not so much interested in a democracy that will come today and go tomorrow. Our history and experiences have shown that even though the military has been in government for 25 years of our about 30 years of independence, when once democracy is brought about according to the style of the military it does not always last, because the people have not studied...or they are not involved. They do not understand the democracy they require. Especially in these days when hunger and poverty are the order of the day, anybody is willing to take a loaf of bread, to do things that are not right.
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The church is coming in, first and foremost, with a long-term program of education, through research, seminars, lectures, to develop a new crop of people in this society. That's one aspect of what we want to do: a long-term program of teaching, of making people begin to live a different kind of life from the one we are seeing, of preparing new politicians, new leaders for the country.
We believe the only organization, the only group of people, who can do this successfully, as it has been done in other places, is the church. It looks as if the entire Nigerian community is looking to us for this leadership. That is why we have come to share our desires, concerns, and aspirations with you, to enable you, because you've had this experience of doing it with other people, to share it with us, and if possible to support us in all the ways in which we can build this up.
At the moment we are doing all our jobs from the Catholic secretariat. The Catholic secretariat is not such that we can do the kind of thing we want to be able to do.
For example, we are talking about what the Shell company is doing in Nigeria. If we had had a commission dealing with these kinds of things, people would have done technical research. If somebody asked me what Shell is doing in Nigeria, I would probably have given them only a sentimental answer, not based on scientific facts. We will want different commissions that can do this kind of work for us, whether on health, education, multinational companies, or what have you.
If we have all these research programs and all this research papers, they will act in two ways. They will help us in re-education of our people. They will also help other people who want to have information about Nigeria. What happens now is that when anybody comes to Nigeria, what he gets is what the government gives to them; and the type of government we have today may not necessarily give them the facts they want. I would expect that if the church had had its own research programs, then it would be possible for somebody to take some form of document from the church and some form of document from the government, and they would be able to compare and contrast and find out what the facts are.
So our aim in coming here is to make you realize, bring you up to date with, the kinds of things that confront us as a group now, the entire Christian community. But I want to assure you that what we want to do is not going to be just for the Christian community alone. What we want is education for the entire population, because unless we do this there is no future for a nation like Nigeria, which is a very great nation in the African continent.
I'm sure sure the secretary general of the Catholic conference will be able to fill in the gaps I might have left.
The Reverend Matthew Hassan Kukail (Secretary General, Catholic Bishops' Conference of Nigeria): I would like to restate our deep gratitude for your hospitality. I'm not sure I have anything to add, except to say what we are trying to do is explore possibilities for building up and strengthening our civil society in Nigeria, through which we can hope to inculcate in our people the values and strategies for achieving sustainable democracy.
.1555
So far, given the levels of poverty and illiteracy in our society, and given the fact that the presence of the military has to a very great extent made it very difficult for our people really to focus on essential issues or ingredients of democracy, such as accountability and the whole perception of what justice is and what human rights are.... The continuous sway of the military has to a great extent dulled the imagination of a goodly number of our people, so much so that people have been reduced to interpreting democracy within the context of voting, political parties, and some of the externals that they can see.
So, as the president has said, the program we wish to embark on is a quite ambitious one, and from the questions that may arise it may be necessary for us to make some clarifications, if we can. That is probably more useful than my continuing to talk, because literally everything we have to say has already been said by both the chairman and the secretary of CAN.
Thank you very much.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): Thank you very much, Father.
Perhaps, Ms Mallam, you would like to make some comments. You've worked in the area of women's rights and women's health.
Ms Lawrencia Mallam (Adviser to the Kaduna Provincial Laity Council, Christian Association of Nigeria): As women in Nigeria, we also have a role to play in the development of the country. We do this in various ways, in different groups and at different levels.
We have an umbrella for the women of Nigeria, which we call the National Council of Women's Societies. On that list you have various women's groups that come under it - religious, social, and ethnic groups, and clubs of different varieties. They come under this, and their aim is to work together as a team and speak with a common voice, to confront a government or any other powerful organization as a team.
Our women have been able to achieve a lot.
In the past, women went about doing things individually and were not given a chance to do anything. But now government has been able to recognize our contribution. So a ministry for women's affairs has been created, and it has a woman as the minister. So here we channel our grievances. A lot is being done through this ministry for women.
I came with the group as a member of the CAN women's wing. As a religious group, we also have our roles to play. We have a lot of women at the grassroots level who are really illiterate, and we have to help them. Illiteracy is a disease on its own, but if you are better educated you will be able to do a lot for yourself. So for these women who are not privileged to be educated, the CAN women have designed some programs to help them to better themselves, whether it be to read and write or little projects to help themselves or other programs they can do.
At the grassroots level, we have schools and we have trades. I say ``schools''. We have seen that our children don't get any moral upbringing from the various government schools. In the past schools were run by missionaries, but they are no longer. At the church level, women try to help by teaching catechism, Bible lessons and so on and so forth. This is how we are able to inculcate discipline and morals in the minds of our children. This is what women do.
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We have a lot of widows among us who are not educated, as I indicated at the beginning. These women feel that life is hopeless. We try to help them. We sit down with them to see what we can do to bring hope back into their lives.
Some widows have farms. A group of widows has a piece of land. We encourage them to make some contribution, to come out with produce they can sell at the end of the season. They have to make a little profit to help themselves.
So we do these and other things, such as having dialogue with Muslim women, especially in the northern part of the country. Men cannot reach out to women in purdah, so women try to reach out to them.
At the National Council of Women's Societies we meet with Muslim women. We interact here. Muslims are difficult to mix with. They see everything they do as the right thing, even when it is wrong or bad. Most of the crises we have in Nigeria are caused by the Muslims, because their way of thinking is different from ours. So we try to have a dialogue with them.
These are the types of things women do, because when there is a problem, when there are riots, it is women and children who suffer most. We are so disturbed by this phenomenon we try to see what we can do to live in peace and harmony with one another.
So various women's groups actually do a lot to have their rights listened to.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): Thanks very much, Ms Mallam.
We have about half an hour for questions. We have to end at 4:30 p.m., because our guests have to go to another event. Are there questions from members?
[Translation]
Ms Debien (Laval East): Good afternoon and welcome to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. I would like to ask you a question about some very recent events.
As you know, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Axworthy, has just come back from Washington and also from London, where a meeting of the Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group on the Harare Declaration was held, for the purpose of focusing particularly on the issue of Nigeria.
At the first meeting in December, the Secretary of State for Latin America and Africa,Ms Stewart, told us that the Group was going to recommend various measures, such as excluding Nigerian representatives from all Commonwealth meetings. Nigeria would also be excluded from all sporting events, all technical assistance would cease, all government contacts with Nigerian agencies would be avoided and, according to the newspapers and press reviews we have seen, the Group recommended banning arm sales to Nigeria, imposing restrictions on the granting of certain visas and avoiding all diplomatic and cultural relations with that country.
Canada and some other countries recommended an oil embargo, but this was not supported by all participating countries.
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It would appear that these initial measures did not produce any results, since they had almost no effect at all on the Nigerian government. We will see what the results of the next measures will be.
Another group was set up to propose further measures and convince those countries most hesitant to act. That is what I understood from the press reviews.
I would like to ask you, as someone working very hard in that part of the world, what you think of all these measures and particularly the most significant one, namely an oil embargo against Nigeria.
[English]
Rev. Mbang: Mr. Vice-Chairman, as church leaders we always expect that anything that will be detrimental to the common people of Nigeria we are concerned with.
We have also looked at the press release of the Commonwealth group. We believe what is listed there, if implemented sincerely and to the letter, would have the desired effect, at least at the beginning. We are very grateful to Canada, because we've discovered that in fact you've carried on this fight to give us salvation very seriously.
We believe that if the areas of the recommendations are taken seriously, especially the upper areas of inconveniencing those who are making life uncomfortable for the people of Nigeria, making it impossible for their families to enjoy the benefits available in the western world, if they can go a step further to freeze the moneys they have in these places, and all other little bits of things, we'll probably begin to see some very dramatic things happening.
I asked this morning, when this matter was raised in the foreign ministry, how are we going to be sure the member states will carry out these recommendations? I saw after the Commonwealth conference in New Zealand that most of the member states did not carry out the recommendations on visas. We were told the military people will not receive visas from the members of the Commonwealth who met. But we were very aware there were certain countries that gave visas to military people.
We believe that if those things that are listed are carried out sincerely and to the letter by all member states, then it is possible that you may not even need to bring up the oil embargo. But in the last analysis, if that is the only way to change the military, it will be difficult for us to tell you not to do so.
But we believe those listed must be carried out sincerely. The question I asked is whether all the members who have penned their signatures to those things are going to effectively and sincerely and honestly implement what they've decided. The problem is that if members don't implement what they decide, it will look like these measures do not work. I believe that if they are implemented they will work.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): Mr. Flis.
Mr. Flis (Parkdale - High Park): You thanked us for listening to you. We thank you for coming and bringing us up to date on what's happening in your country. As parliamentarians we can't be experts in every field and know what's happening in each country. So you're doing us a great favour too.
Much of Canada's aid to various countries is put to better use if we put it through NGO groups. I'm wondering if you could share with the committee what NGO groups are working in Nigeria and which ones are more effective? I am referring to non-governmental organizations.
.1610
Rev. Kukail: It might also be of interest to state that our trip was made possible through the assistance of Mr. Gerry Ohlsen at the Canadian High Commission. We have been in touch with some of the groups working with various NGOs in Nigeria. Even back in Nigeria we are very much in touch with some of the human rights organizations.
Although this trip is largely exploratory, we have gathered enough experience to help us in our move forward. We hope the channels of communication that have now been opened will be kept opened. We also hope that through us and our own limited resources, in the best way possible, we will be able to keep you informed of the nature of the progress we are making and the state of things in Nigeria.
We believe that an organization such as ours, if properly equipped, should serve as a third way - not just between the government and the international community; it should serve as an alternative in terms of other points of view about what is happening in Nigeria.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): Are there any other comments? Mr. Paré.
[Translation]
Mr. Paré (Louis-Hébert): I am somewhat surprised that you haven't spoken very much about the whole issue of human rights. I would like you to give us some background on the degree to which fundamental human rights are respected in Nigeria. What is the situation there?
[English]
Mr. Wiliams: The truth is that fundamental human rights are not highly respected by the powers that be. We have numerous cases of arbitrary arrest. People detained without trial are not brought forward to be tried. The military government governs by decrees, which means that as soon as it comes into power it abrogates the constitution under which the country exists.
Very often, this makes nonsense of the judiciary. Of course, we challenge these a number of times, not only by making press statements and also holding press conferences; on two occasions, we have taken the federal military government to court. On both occasions we won, but the judges said their hands were tied because there is a decree that says you cannot challenge the military government in court. So the normal court of justice, which is the last refuge for the common man, is not recognized.
The CLOs, human rights organizations, when introducing CAN, have been more or less abolished or made impotent. They cannot do anything any more. The NUT, the CLO, the Nigerian Bar Association and the staff union of the universities used to be able to speak out when government was going wrong. But they have all been more or less abolished, and now the only organization left for Nigeria and to which everyone looks is the Christian Association of Nigeria, CAN.
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The government knows it is a formidable organization. Whenever the rights of Nigerian institutions are trampled on, we are bold enough to tell the government. But generally these human rights are not honoured at all, are not respected.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): Just to follow up on that question, do you face in your own case, as an organization or as individuals, direct harassment from the government?
Mr. Wiliams: The answer is no, not so far. I think the government would like to see us pack up, if it could help it, but it knows the following is very large. The government is not responsible for electing our executives or our leaders for us, so there is no way the government can influence CAN. Even if one leader is removed, it is not the government that will appoint the substitute, it is still CAN itself.
The government keeps an eye on us. Even when it pretends it is not influenced by our statements, we know that when we do speak the government trembles.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): And you have access to the media when you do speak?
Mr. Wiliams: Oh, yes.
Rev. Mbang: I know by the time I arrive in Nigeria, because I've been away for two weeks and the media hasn't seen me, they will want to find out where I've been. That's the interesting thing -
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): Some Canadian politicians have that problem.
Rev. Mbang: That's why I said we have this pressure on us to do something. Everybody has seen that we are the only group.... Sometimes people call us ``sacred cows'', because we are the only group untouched by government.
For the last ten years - because I have been the head of the church for ten years now - I've said all kinds of things against the government when I haven't liked it and I've praised them when they've done well. But nobody, at least up to the time I left for Canada, has ever challenged me. I don't know what will happen by the time I arrive back on Sunday.
That's the reason we have this pressure. People think if we are the only group of people left untouched, maybe salvation should come from our own side.
Rev. Kukail: As you know, Nigeria also has quite a substantial Muslim population. At the level of religious leadership, we have the Christian Association of Nigeria and the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs. But right now, during the past week - you must have picked it up in the news - there has been the sacking of the leader of the entire Muslim community in Nigeria.
This comparison with the leadership of the Muslim community is not unconnected with the fact that a good number, like the man who was sacked himself, have been not only politicians. He was also a beneficiary of the military government, because he was installed by the military government itself. What this means in the larger picture is that for the next one year or more one can assume the leadership of the Muslim community has been thrown into some kind of a quandary. There will be all kinds of crises.
Our position remains.... It's not a question of taking advantage of the vacuum that is progressing. I think it only means we now have a greater sense of responsibility to put our resources together to see that, as the president said, this responsibility that has been thrust on our shoulders is successfully carried out.
It's quite interesting that the Nigerian media, despite the very strong stand of the government, remains one of the most vibrant institutions in Africa. We enjoy quite a lot of press freedom, beyond the fact that on one or two occasions we have had media houses closed. An editor of one of the newspapers has been in detention since December 24. But I think the larger picture shows we enjoy a level of press freedom that is unparalleled in other parts of Africa.
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The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): Thank you very much.
Madame Debien.
[Translation]
Ms Debien: Reverend Kukail, you have just mentioned a subject which leads on to another question. You spoke about the Christian churches and the Council of Christian churches. You also said that there was an Islamic council.
As we know, in early June there were clashes between the Ibo who I think are Christian, and the Hausa who are Muslim. Are the Christian churches and the Islamic movement working together to resolve the clashes between these people from two different ethnic groups and religions?
[English]
Rev. Kukail: At the level of the Catholic Church we have a commission for Christian-Muslim dialogue; it's headed by a bishop. Even as Christians, the Christian Association of Nigeria has representation at the state and at the local government level. At that level, depending on where these explosions take place, when all is said and done the various church leaders still make all kinds of moves to bring about a conciliation.
As to the riots that occurred in Nigeria, the Ibos are predominantly Christian. A lot of these problems in Nigeria have taken the image of Christian-Muslim, but in reality they are not about religion. They are mainly about businessmen jostling for position. It's mainly a problem of the hostility between one trading group and the other. The Ibos who are in Kano, for example, are largely traders. But as I said, because nine out of ten Ibos are most likely to be Christian, when something like that happens, although at the beginning it may have nothing to do with religion, religion ends up being drawn into the picture.
Some of the riots that have occurred in many parts of northern Nigeria have just been efforts towards self-determination, quite similar in context to what the Ogoni people are talking about, except in the case of the Ogonis it would not have been possible for the Ogonis to accuse anybody of religious persecution.
In the case of northern Nigeria, when similar problems of self-determination have cropped up and have led to riots and violence, because most of these communities are non-Muslim and usually the other side tends to be Muslim, you end up with a picture that is a bit confusing. Many people would tend to see it as Christian-Muslim conflict, but the problems are not at the religious level as such.
To answer your question again, yes, efforts are being made on the ground to facilitate this dialogue. That is why part of our education package is to let people see that religious differences, ethnic differences and gender differences should not really generate anxiety and distrust as such.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): Mr. Dupuy.
Mr. Dupuy (Laval West): Let me first of all tell you that you're very welcome in Canada. You're in a very friendly country. We've had good relations with Nigeria over the years, at times better relations than at other times.
For that reason we feel saddened by your present situation. You're a great country. You're a leading country in Africa and you should be a leading country in the world. It's all the more distressing that your country should be in this situation since it is largely on account of the government you have, not because of the lack of wealth or potential of Nigeria.
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In situations such as this, which have occurred in other parts of the world as well at one time or another, usually there is a sort of development that takes place to change the government. It can be the building up of opposition within the country that eventually becomes so strong and pervasive that the government changes. Sometimes it is foreign intervention that changes the situation. This happened in Haiti, for instance. It was mainly through foreign pressure and actual physical intervention that a change took place. Sometimes it's a mixture of both, as happened in South Africa.
In your judgments, are the opposition forces in Nigeria sufficiently strong to bring eventually the kind of change I'm talking about? I don't see very much foreign intervention in Nigeria of the Haitian kind; Nigeria is far too big a country. If what is required is a solution that brings together both internal opposition and foreign pressure, this leads me to the question: what can best be done by a friendly country such as Canada to help you along?
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): Would you like to answer that question?
Rev. Mbang: I think that's part of what we have said, because once we are able to educate the population - I talk in terms of the long term and the short term - then if the population begins to understand what is best for them, what is good for them, naturally we will have a good operation in the country. We will have a group of people who will not be saying...because what we've discovered is that Nigerians take any nonsense from anybody now, maybe because they are not very aware of the evil that is being done to their lives. So once this happens, the opposition we are requiring.... And maybe through our education, all these other institutions, the civil liberties union and all those that seem not to have been very active, might join the bandwagon and there will be a larger operation from the inside. But they will still need some help from the outside, just as happened in South Africa.
The military option will never be able to solve things in Nigeria. It has to be the kind of help that was given to the South Africans to be able to help themselves. I believe that's the better option for any solution to that problem.
[Translation]
Mr. Paré: In resolving the problem of apartheid in South Africa, Canada played an important role in bringing people together and offering leadership to the international community.
I would like to come back to the question asked by Mr. Dupuis. You have come to Canada with specific expectations, and I would like you to be more explicit in telling us what Canada can do for you.
How can we help you?
[English]
Mr. Wiliams: We have said that a formidable task has been imposed on the association. Primarily we thank God that the association is living up to its expectations.
But as Father Kukail explained, we do not have the structure; we are not fully equipped to grapple with the demands of this important task. The research centre is not there, and there is no headquarters office for CAN. There is no secretariat for CAN. The association must be so helped that it would be well-equipped with the appropriate staffing and equipment so that we have the various departments and commissions that usually do the work that needs to be done. We have the human rights department, we have the women's department, we have the youth department and we have the interfaith department, whose main assignment will be to see how we can harmonize the relationship between Christians and Muslims.
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Put briefly, what we mean is that CAN should be helped, should be strengthened, to ensure that the task it is out to perform is performed creditably and that all those organizations, such as CLO, a human rights organization, the Nigeria Bar Association and so on, which the government has tried to abolish or make weak, will also spring up, because CAN will then be in a position to pressure the government to ensure that these various bodies also do their work.
Rev. Kukail: I just wanted to add that it's a rare privilege for us to be in your midst. Initially our purpose was to hold these collaborative exchanges with various church institutions. Our story has been that wherever we have gone, we have met with some of the executive members of the World Council of Churches. We had a meeting in New York.
So our mission essentially has been to say that we are seeking very many situations of.... Our most urgent area of need is financial assistance to enable us to complete a building we have been working on for the last fifteen years, a national ecumenical centre in Abuja. When completed, in our estimation it will make it possible for us to respond to some of these challenges. As the secretary of CAN has said, for the last 20 years that CAN has been underground, it has been functioning out of the secretariat of the Catholic Bishops' Conference.
Last year I was in South Africa. I saw the kind of structure the South African Council of Churches has in place. Although we know the role they played and what the churches had to do, those roles definitely would not have been possible without not only the material but also the human resources, the expertise, at their disposal. We feel that although the challenges ahead of us are quite enormous, we are handicapped by the lack of a physical structure from which to be able to effectively carry out the assignments we have designed for ourselves.
In a way, our meeting with you is quite a rare privilege, but the agenda we've had in our discussions with some of the church groups has been in the line of the assistance we require to be able to complete the building of our ecumenical centre.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. English): Thank you very much. This has been a very useful meeting. We appreciated very much hearing from you.
As was said earlier, Nigeria has had a long and very strong relationship with Canada. It is a country with enormous potential. It is a great country, one that will play a large role in Africa. We commend you on your work. We hope we can support it in the future. Thank you very much for coming here today.
The meeting is adjourned.