[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, May 7, 1996
.1533 
[English]
The Chairman: We have a quorum. May we come to order?
Mr. Loubier.
[Translation]
Mr. Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe - Bagot): Before starting our deliberations, I would like to have a brief discussion with you and members of the Finance Committee.
I have just been told there are no witnesses. Mixed signals have been sent... I see some of your advisors think that is funny. I would ask them to behave themselves.
As I was saying, we received mixed signals about the Finance Committee sittings. We don't know who to believe any more. We don't know where this committee is going. It's a shambles and we get contradictory messages every five minutes. We get an urgent message in our office saying the committee meeting has been cancelled, and ten minutes later, we get another message saying the meeting will indeed be held.
We have been sitting for three months, and we have spent only three hours on Finance Committee business.
We have been working together for about two and a half years now. During all that time, I have never seen such a fiasco, such nonsense.
Since there are no witnesses this afternoon, I would ask you to think things through. I have no intention of being part of any discussion this afternoon. I am asking you to see to it that our clerk be replaced by someone else if she no longer wants to work for the Finance Committee.
.1535
If you no longer want to be Chairman of the Finance Committee, let someone else take over. We are here to work and we are not going to plan our agenda with each passing hour or day just to accommodate you or the clerk or anyone else in government.
The official opposition isn't going to waste its time day after day. We have other fish to fry.
So I would like to hear what others have to say, because my colleagues and I are fed up with working like this.
Things are going well in other committees, but not the Finance Committee. We have a lot on our plate, and I have made repeated requests to the government, to you and to the Parliamentary Secretary to come up with a sensible program. Let's get down to work. We are here to work. Let's stop wasting our time.
That is what I wanted to say. If there are no witnesses this afternoon, we are not going to waste our time here, because we have other work to do elsewhere. Once you have a clear idea of how the committee will operate and on how your colleagues will be involved, and once you have given them to the clerk responsible for the Finance Committee, we can talk again. That is basically what I had to tell you.
The Chairman: As Chairman, I am very open to your suggestions for topics. As I have always said, the best way to proceed would be to discuss the matter with the Steering Committee.
Mr. Loubier: Would you like some suggestions, Mr. Chairman? I will make sone right now.
First of all, run the committee properly. Secondly, if the clerk does not want to do the clerk's job, if she wants to play a political role, she should just run against someone. She would be welcome in any Quebec riding.
Thirdly, the committee should have a well defined daily agenda; we should know where we are going, who will be there, which would ensure we do useful work.
Fourthly, eight experts were hired to review the tax system. I spoke to the Finance minister about that about a month and a half ago, after his budget was tabled. I asked him if we, parliamentarians who are accountable to the public, could hear those eight experts to ask them what they plan to do, what their agenda is, and what topic they will be reviewing, so that we can compare their analysis with ours. Is that too much to ask?
The Finance Minister welcomed that suggestion, as did the committee chairman, but since then, nothing has happened. Let's say that when we started, it was already a good...
The Chairman: Fine. Mr. Campbell.
[English]
Mr. Campbell (St. Paul's): With all due respect, we've all listened to this lecture. From my perspective, I think you're being exceedingly unfair to the chairman and the other members of the committee. You cannot make recommendations and then get all upset when things don't happen instantly in the timeframe you want.
All of the suggestions you have made, in particular the one with respect to the technical committee, are under consideration. There are a number of initiatives flowing from the budget. There are a number of pieces of legislation that come before our committee as a function of the timetable in the House. We are here to review legislation and we can't review it before it has reached a certain stage in the House. You know that after two and a half years here, as I do.
The recommendations you have made - not all of which have merit, but some of which are very interesting and worthy of work by the committee - are under consideration. I have conveyed to the minister and you've talked to the minister directly, and I can assure you that in time a number of the suggestions will find their way to committee work. We are in a situation where legislation has not moved through the House as quickly as you might have liked or some of us might have liked. We have been diligently working towards identifying witnesses on the bill that is before the committee, following up your list for instance. So I don't think you have a great deal to complain about.
[Translation]
Mr. Loubier: Mr. Chairman, to respond to the parliamentary secretary...
[English]
The Chairman: Excuse me, I would like to say something too. I just want to say this: I have worked with a lot of people in the House of Commons and I have never worked with anyone who is more professional or has served a committee better than our clerk and the rest of the staff. Any condemnation of our clerk I take very personally. I suggest to you that it is totally unfair and I take it with a great deal of umbrage.
.1540
[Translation]
Mr. Loubier: I would like to respond to you and the parliamentary secretary. I will respond immediately to your comment. Blaming the Clerk is fairly serious and I gave it serious thought before doing so in front of you.
There comes a point where enough is enough. When the Clerk herself challenges the list of witnesses we presented by saying they are not credible witnesses, that is a pretty big problem.
When the Clerk tells us it is unacceptable and there will be a gag order, that is a political judgment.
If we are going to keep her as Clerk of this committee, I would like us to set things straight. Is it possible in the last two and a half years, the Clerk might have gotten into a bad habit and we might be able to correct it?
Don't tell me you think the finance committee has been running smoothly for the past three months. That is what I say to the parliamentary secretary.
I am not asking you to give us an answer immediately, or to respond to our demands right away, but we have been here for three months now. The June adjournment is just around the corner. People are waiting for us to work. They say there are budgetary and economic problems. We suggest ways to go about dealing with them, and you say there are excellent ideas, but there is no follow through. Apparently we're waiting for a bill, Mr. Secretary, but we already have one; Bill C-31.
We submitted a list of 14 witnesses plus four expert witnesses yesterday. Last week, we discussed who would appear yesterday and today. The Clerk was to confirm the attendance of some of the witnesses. Suddenly, about an hour before the meeting was to start, we are told that the finance committee meeting has been cancelled.
No one consulted us. No one gives a damn about the steering committee. No one gives a damn about the Bloc Québécois either, the official opposition. Enough is enough. We are here to work.
I have two assistants this year, in case you hadn't noticed. Last year and the year prior to that, I had just one. We are willing to work. Today, I have said my piece. When you have gotten yourselves organized, when you feel like working, when you have a clear plan, when you have given us a few days' notice to hear witnesses, then we can talk again.
We have told you what we think, and we are just going to leave the committee. The next time we come back, we will be assured that things will run smoothly, that the Chairman will be interested, that the Clerk will work seriously and that the parliamentary secretary will stop saying just anything and we'll also get down to business.
[English]
Mr. Campbell: Mr. Chairman, this is just a note about the reference to the summer recess. I receive a payment as a full-time member of Parliament all year long. We may well sit through the summer on a number of the issues Mr. Loubier has asked us to deal with, on bills that will be coming out over the next few weeks -
[Translation]
Mr. Loubier: Oh, yes? After doing nothing for three months, you want to make us sit during the summer? Are you crazy?
[English]
Mr. Campbell: - indeed on Mr. Loubier's 41 witnesses.
I just want to alert Mr. Loubier and others that while I think the chairman has tried over the last two years to ensure that people have the most time to spend in their ridings during the week of adjournment we periodically have and during the summer recess, if our legislation or special work requires us to be here during the summer, we have been in the past and I anticipate we will be again subject to the chairman's call.
The Chairman: I am sure that -
[Translation]
Mr. Loubier: We wasted our time for three months because of you, your lean legislative menu, your lack of interest in the tax reform, your unwillingness to hear witnesses who would have talked about the real issues surrounding the GST.
But today, on behalf of his government, the chairman decides to have us sit all summer. We will see about that. When you are ready to do some serious work and have a real agenda, we can discuss this again. For the time being, there is no point in us being here.
[English]
Mr. Campbell: Mr. Loubier has now insulted the clerk, the chair and the parliamentary secretary. There are four or five other people you may want -
Mr. Loubier: Don't call me, I'll call you.
Mr. Campbell: - to insult personally before you leave, Mr. Loubier. I want to give you the chance.
[Translation]
The Chairman: You are certainly entitled to leave us.
Mr. Loubier: When you and the Clerk are ready to do serious work, when the parliamentary secretary stops saying just anything, you can call us back.
.1545
The Chairman: Are there some witnesses you would like us to hear?
Mr. Loubier: I gave you a list of 14 witnesses. Last week, we talked about the three witnesses who were to appear today, and the Clerk's office did not confirm that. That's not our problem.
The Chairman: It was not...
[English]
Mr. Loubier: When you are ready to work call me, but not before.
[Translation]
The Chairman: They aren't the ones to blame; you are, because you did not inform your witnesses.
Mr. Loubier: You can call me back.
The Chairman: You have made a spectacle of yourself for the second time, as usual. Colleagues, that is the type of cooperation we get from members of the official opposition who do not have any witnesses for us and who are so embarrassed...
[English]
They are so embarrassed that their witnesses wouldn't show that they have tried to take it out on our clerk. Unfortunately, one cannot account for bad manners. One cannot account for people who don't do their work. One cannot account for people who try to blame it on those who don't have the right to talk back.
I want to express total confidence in our clerk and her staff and the work they have always done for us.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Chairman: We are so fortunate to have her, and unfortunately she has to suffer the lies and calumny of the opposition, who have nothing better to do.
We have told the opposition all along that it was up to them to call before us the witnesses they wanted. We have stood ready to meet with them. They have not shown up. They are trying to blame it on us. Unfortunately, as long as people try to shuffle the blame onto others rather than accept the consequences themselves, we will have to deal with this grandstanding and this form of dishonesty, and I regret it very much.
Is there anything anyone wants to say?
I will instruct the clerk to call before us any witnesses who have been confirmed by the Bloc. It will be up to the Bloc to give us the names of the people who have confirmed that they want to appear before us. The clerk will arrange a convenient time for them to appear. Are there any other suggestions?
We are adjourned.