[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Thursday, September 26, 1996
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[English]
The Clerk of the Committee: Honourable members, there is a quorum. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(1), I'm here to receive motions for the election of a chairman.
Mr. Cannis (Scarborough Centre): I nominate Mary Clancy.
The Clerk: Seconded by Mr. Bertrand.
Mr. Hart (Okanagan - Similkameen - Merritt): On debate, my intervention isn't necessarily intended to oppose the nomination, but given the situation in the Canadian Armed Forces and that we are a democratic country, I think it would be reasonable to expect that we would be able to hear from the person nominated as chair a few words on some issues and how this committee is going to deal with the issues facing the Canadian Armed Forces.
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I have a few things I would like to say. Then, hopefully, we will be able to get a response from the person nominated, and then the committee could make an informed decision on how they wish to vote on the chairperson.
Some of the things I would personally like to see - and I'm sure many members of the committee also feel this way - is General Boyle come before the committee. As far as I'm aware, he has not appeared before this committee since his appointment, and I think it's important that General Boyle come before the committee and talk to the committee in particular on the issues of leadership and morale facing the Canadian Armed Forces.
I would also like to hear from the nominee her thoughts on the recent appointment of General Cox as the army's command inspector. And if the Canadian Armed Forces has an intention to take that one step further and appoint an inspector general for the entire Canadian Armed Forces, I think General Boyle and his thoughts would be helpful to this committee for us to make a recommendation as well and review this issue.
The other item on my list is, I'd like to find out from the nominee her thoughts on the white paper that was presented by the Minister of National Defence. Shortly after General Boyle was appointed to the position of chief of defence staff he made some comments - I believe it was in Brussels - where he said the Canadian troops were not combat capable at this point and he would have difficulty sending our troops into a combat situation. This is something that's totally opposite to what our white paper on national defence says, so I'm quite concerned about that.
Mr. Collins (Souris - Moose Mountain): Mr. Clerk, on a point of order, I'm new to this committee, but having had some dealings at the municipal level I think we have to deal with the motion -
Mr. Hart: My understanding is that the Clerk cannot deal with points of order. This is on debate.
Mr. Collins: This is a point of clarification. If we are dealing with a motion, fine, let's get on with the motion. If we're going to go into a preamble that has nothing to do with the decision we're going to make, I think we need to have that clarified.
Mr. Hart: It is my understanding that this is a debatable motion. I'm perfectly in order.
The Clerk: I would remind the honourable members that my role here is to receive motions for the election of the chairman. I am not allowed to entertain any other types of motions, I cannot entertain points of order, nor can I participate in debate.
Mr. Hart: But this is a debatable motion.
Mr. Bertrand (Pontiac - Gatineau - Labelle): Question.
The Clerk: If members are ready for the question, it has been moved by Mr. Cannis and seconded by Mr. Bertrand that Ms Clancy do take the chair of this committee.
Mr. Hart: Does that mean that the nominee will not answer the questions, that we have to vote?
Ms Clancy (Halifax): The answer to that is yes. I will not answer the questions.
Motion agreed to
The Clerk: I declare Ms Clancy chair of this committee and welcome her to the chair.
The Chair: Thank you very much, gentlemen. It's nice to see you all - or at least most of you.
We now proceed to the election of vice-chairs.
Mr. Frazer (Saanich - Gulf Islands): Madame Chair, I nominate Mr. Hart as vice-chair.
The Chair: If you could contain your wonderful spirit for a moment, Colonel Frazer, I'll get to you in one second.
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I will now entertain nominations for vice-chairs.
Mr. Frazer: I nominate Jim Hart as vice-chair for the opposition.
[Translation]
Mr. Leroux (Shefford): Madam Chair, I would like to nominate Pierre Brien as vice-chair of the Defence Committee.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Leroux.
Mr. Richardson (Perth - Wellington - Waterloo): I would like to nominate Robert Bertrand for the government.
The Chair: Thank you.
[English]
Mr. Frazer: On a point of order, I didn't like it, but previously we always had only one motion on the floor at a time; you wouldn't entertain two simultaneous nominations.
The Chair: We will deal with one at a time.
Mr. Frazer: I don't object to that.
The Chair: Unless you had three hands it would be difficult to vote in the proper way. I'll take all the nominations and then we'll deal with the election.
Are there any further nominations? Ergo, we have three people nominated: Mr. Jim Hart, Monsieur Pierre Brien and Mr. Robert Bertrand.
Mr. Hart: I move that we have a recorded vote, Madam Chairman.
The Chair: Certainly. I will proceed in order. We're going to do a recorded vote. We'll deal with Mr. Hart's nomination first.
The Clerk: It is moved by Mr. Frazer that Mr. Hart be elected vice-chair of the committee.
Motion negatived: nays 8; yeas 2
The Clerk: The second motion, moved by Mr. Leroux, was that Mr. Brien be elected vice-chair of the committee.
Motion agreed to: yeas 8; nays 2
The Clerk: The third motion was put by Mr. Richardson, that Monsieur Bertrand be elected vice-chair of the committee.
Mr. Frazer: On a point of order, Madam Chair, I understand that you want to go on record with your views on this, but isn't it unusual for the chair to vote unless there's a requirement to break a tie?
The Chair: It's unusual but it's not against the rules.
Mr. Hart: Madam Chair, I refer you to Beauchesne's, section 819, which says:
- With the exception of proceedings on private bills, the Chairman of the committee may vote
only when there is equality of votes. In giving a casting vote the Chairman should be guided by
the same principles as the Speaker in the House.
The Chair: I would say two things to you, Mr. Hart. I would thank you for your information and I think it makes very little difference in this particular situation. I would hate to have the members of the third party think I was hiding my views on this. I believe very strongly that no matter what the political stripe, members of Her Majesty's loyal opposition should hold one of the vice-chair positions on all committees. I didn't want you to think I was being devious or hiding my light under a bushel or not showing my opinion. It's not something I'm often accused of anyway, but I wanted to make sure.
Secondly, in future when you wish to let the chair know that you'd like to say something, you could wait until the chair acknowledges you. This will probably make for easier relations on the committee.
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I accept. Therefore, I will not vote. If you wish me to retract my vote, I'm happy to do so.
Now, can we move ahead with the next motion?
Mr. Frazer: I thank you for your candour.
The Chair: Anytime.
The Clerk: The third item is the motion by Mr. Richardson that Mr. Bertrand be elected vice-chair.
Motion agreed to: yeas 8; nays 1
The Chair: Thank you. I would like to congratulate Mr. Bertrand and Mr. Brien. At the same time, I would like to welcome the new committee members, Mr. Collins and Mr. Brien, and to welcome reinstated or recommissioned members back to the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs.
I would now ask the clerk if there is any other business we should get to this morning.
The Clerk: You may wish to deal with some future business.
The Chair: We probably should have a steering committee meeting as soon as possible. Do we need to reconstitute the steering committee? I think that would probably be a good idea.
The Clerk: No.
The Chair: No, it's not necessary. Each of the opposition members knows who they're going to designate. If they could just let us know, that would be fine. Then the clerk would make contact.
I'd also like to welcome Mr. O'Brien, who's only substituting. He's most welcome anytime he'd like to join us.
As members of the committee from last year will remember, it was decided that we would visit the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre in Cornwallis, Nova Scotia. I'm wondering if perhaps Mr. Richardson might give us an update.
Mr. Richardson: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
We've all wanted to see the operation, as the members of the defence committee, to see what type of program is in place and the nature of the operation. We have made contact with the peacekeeping school, and they are happy to have us down there. They want us for three hours, but I guess they're so far out at the end of the province that we'd be welcome.
I think from our point of view, Madam Chairman, we'd be wise to see what's going on, how this school is growing, and how it is feeling about its growth. We could hear about the curriculum and the future in the school, which we haven't heard. It'll give them a good chance to do that for us.
We also have an opportunity to look at Maritime Air Group of Air Command headquarters at Greenwood to view the role of the air force in its surveillance of the coast and its anti-submarine techniques. We could also make a brief stop at one of the newer, but smaller, militia training centres just up the road from Greenwood on our way back to Halifax.
The Chair: That would be in Aldershot.
Mr. Richardson: Yes, that would be in Aldershot.
That's basically the itinerary. It looks like it will take two days, or a day and a half, whatever the schedule comes out as.
The Chair: I'm just wondering, Mr. Richardson, if there would also be an opportunity for any of our colleagues to do a tour of that wonderful and most important place in Halifax known as Strathcona.
Mr. Richardson: I'd like the committee to see this, because it's so big. We should not just have a briefing on Maritime Command. We should see what their operation is, such as their maintenance and training programs and refits, there at the schools.
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This would give our committee a broader look at the navy. It's one of the great bases we have in Canada. It's a comprehensive base.
The Chair: It's the great base that we have in Canada.
Mr. Richardson: If we wanted a snapshot, we could take a briefing, but that's a massive base.
The Chair: It is. Here's what I'm thinking. As I know all members have the same concerns with logistics and time and all of this, I'm wondering if we could get sort of a tentative timetable out to the members as soon as possible to see how many.... What was our date at the moment?
Mr. Richardson: It's Thursday and Friday, which is the 10th and 11th of October.
The Clerk: That's correct.
Mr. Richardson: We would fly out maybe on the Wednesday night. We would be in place. Then I've requested two Huey helicopters to take the committee to start at the bottom at Cornwallis and work our way back up the valley. Then we would fly back into Halifax. We would have some time in Halifax, maybe the full morning. We could probably get a pretty good view by using the full morning in Halifax.
The Chair: I know that. I've done the briefing. There is a very good briefing that takes approximately half a day. That would then get you all, even those of you who are coming from western Canada. The flights are pretty good, so you could be back home by Friday evening.
Mr. Frazer: Madam Chair, both Mr. Hart and myself have been through the Maritime Command briefing in full with the special joint committee when we were with that. I don't think things have changed a tremendous amount since that time.
The Chair: That's fine. It's obviously up to you.
Mr. Frazer: I understand. But it might be redundant for us to go through it again.
The Chair: Is there any response from the government members of the committee?
Mr. Richardson: I think there are four new members.
The Chair: Yes.
Mr. Richardson: I respect exactly what Jack is saying.
The Chair: Sure. I understand. Nobody's going to force you to come.
Mr. Richardson: But I think they should also know about our maritime.... I think at some stage we should either bring the briefers from Air Command or go to Winnipeg and hear what the air force and the army.... I don't think that since this restructuring and reorientation has taken place we've had all the amendments and all the changes that are taking place at all levels.
The Chair: Perhaps we can get that out, and then find out who wants to come. Any comments?
Mr. Hart: Madam Chair, I think that as I mentioned last year, the trip is important for us to view what's happening at Maritime Command in Halifax.
I'm interested in the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre, but I wouldn't want to leave the impression with Canadians that this trip is one of the most important issues this committee has facing it. I just wanted to at least put out the fact that many things happened over the summer.
This is our first meeting since probably June. The Minister of National Defence talked in the media about changes to the military justice system. There are just many other more important issues -
The Chair: Can I just stop you for one minute? I'll let you come right back.
I'll say two things. The next item for me is that I would like us to have a steering committee meeting preferably next Tuesday. Is that possible? As far as I'm concerned, in the steering committee, Mr. Hart, there will be no holds barred. You can bring up anything you want.
Mr. Hart: That's true here, Madam Chair.
The Chair: I understand that. I'm not suggesting that I would ever try to fetter your -
Mr. Hart: Enthusiasm.
The Chair: I doubt that one could fetter your enthusiasm, Mr. Hart, but I am suggesting that I would not even attempt to fetter your participation in the steering committee.
I will try to fetter your participation, in the interest of time, in this committee. Bring it to the steering committee. I'm warning you ahead of time, just so you know where I'm coming from, that nothing will be done in this committee that will in any way interfere with matters that are currently sub judice, or quasi sub judice, in front of a public inquiry.
Mr. Hart: That goes without saying.
The Chair: Do what you wish. It's just so you'll know. It's not that I think you were labouring under delusions in that area anyway.
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Mr. Hart: Not at all.
The Chair: I would invite all members on the opposition side who have matters of interest to bring them to the steering committee. Those on the government side should speak to Mr. Richardson, myself or Mr. Bertrand to bring that to the steering committee. We'll certainly entertain any and every suggestion. I have a number myself that I think are of interest.
Here's another thing. I actually have an event at the dockyard tomorrow with one, if not both, of the admirals. I might see if we could get on board one of the ships and do maybe some interesting stuff like looking at submarines, such as how inferior the submarines are, or something like that. If I do, I'll let you know. I'm very hooked on submarines, helicopters, and all that sort of stuff. Anyway, I'll report that back to the steering committee after I speak to Admiral Garnett on it.
Mr. Richardson: I think we should have a motion now to confirm the dates, so we can go to budget to make arrangements for this.
The Chair: Terrific.
Mr. Richardson: I'd like to make a motion, Madam Chair, that we would confirm the dates as October 9, 10, and 11, and that we proceed to seek a budget from the House of Commons for this trip.
Mr. Bertrand: I second the motion.
Motion agreed to
The Chair: So notices will be sent with regard to the steering committee meeting. We would thus adjourn to the call of the chair. Thank you very much.
The meeting is adjourned.