[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, March 11, 1997
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[English]
The Chairman (Mr. Stan Dromisky (Thunder Bay - Atikokan, Lib.)): We'll call the meeting to order pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study of Citizenship and Immigration Canada's foreign workers policy.
We have two witnesses before us today from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration: Ralph Girard, assistant deputy minister of operations; and Dougall Aucoin, director of economic policy and programs, selection branch.
Gentlemen, my understanding is that you both have short presentations, and then we'll go right into questions.
Who is going to be first?
Mr. Ralph Girard (Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to begin by giving a little bit of context, and then we'll proceed to talk about a specific initiative we have to tackle the shortage of professionals in the high-tech industry in Canada.
The overall arrangement involves the collaboration of a number of different organizations, both governmental and non-governmental. My colleague, Dougall Aucoin, will speak to that.
I've asked the clerk to distribute a draft operations memorandum, which will be the device we'll use to launch the project when it matures, to give members a sense of what is coming.
Let me say at the beginning that there are two methods in immigration law and practice through which Canadian employers recruit needed talent overseas. There are temporary workers, who come for a specific period of time, destined usually to a specific employer; and there are the conventional immigration streams, the independent workers who come on the strength of their qualifications.
The legal framework for the temporary workers is described in section 10 of the regulations, which, among other things, requires that people other than Canadian citizens or permanent residents who want to come to Canada for the purpose of engaging in employment must obtain authorization from Citizenship and Immigration Canada before doing so.
To give you an idea of the magnitude of the flows, in 1996 a few more than 1,700 information technology professionals came in on temporary employment authorizations, and another 3,000 came in as immigrants.
In response to some of the press interest in this, my view is that Immigration Canada is doing well in this area, but of course we can always do better. To facilitate the admission of 5,000 in this particular sector is a good start on meeting the need.
The issue of temporary workers always involves the collaboration of Human Resources Canada and Immigration Canada when we deal with the question of skill shortages. The employment authorization regulations themselves describe three different streams of people who can come into Canada to work.
First, some come with no formalities - that is, people bringing vehicles into Canada from overseas, planes and buses and things like that.
Second, there is a stream of people allowed to come in who are issued employment authorizations even though there might be Canadians available to do the jobs in question. This relates to things you find in the international labour force.
A Canadian manufacturer buys a complex piece of machinery from a foreign supplier, and part and parcel of the contract of warranty is that these machines will be installed by company-trained specialists. So these people come in. There's no question that there might be Canadians available to do that job, but because of the arrangement in the contract, Citizenship and Immigration Canada issues a permit for the specific task in question. We find a whole genre of occupations like that.
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Third, there are those who come in to fill specific skill shortages - that is, there are no qualified Canadians available for the jobs in question. The shortages we find in the IT field in Canada are a case study in that kind of problem. Canada isn't training enough people. Canadians are being hired away by companies abroad. So Canadian employers are looking to a foreign supply to remain competitive and to deliver on the contracts that they themselves have undertaken with various organizations in Canada and abroad.
The hurdle an employer must meet in dealing with skill shortages usually involves demonstrating to Human Resources Canada that there is a genuine job there and that it can't be filled within Canada. Where Citizenship and Immigration Canada gets involved is dealing with the person who is recruited, the person who is applying abroad for a visa. This often leads to complications in communication and in understanding what exactly is involved in the process.
To simplify things for all concerned, we publish and distribute a pamphlet that talks about hiring foreign workers, so that a company that is seeking to recruit from abroad will understand both ends of the process: the work that has to be done with Human Resources and the work that needs to be done by the person recruited in getting an immigrant visa or a temporary work authorization.
The time involved in coming to Canada is usually a critical issue. We read in the paper that employers are facing waits of 18 to 36 months to get people in who they've recruited and urgently need.
The reality is starkly different. The office we have in New Delhi, for instance, is our largest single processor for software engineers. A lot of these people are recruited in South India. They're recruited by all kinds of companies, including Canadian companies. Microsoft is there, as well as Nortel.
We've documented about 1,000 cases that went through New Delhi as temporary workers last year. The average turnaround time for people who are coming for more than 6 months, and therefore need a medical, is 3 weeks. If they're coming for less than 6 months and don't need a medical, and their papers are in order, the application can be processed in 2 or 3 days.
That's not to say that individual cases don't hang up. If there's an unclear medical, if there's a clarification to be made with the applicant's background, a question of criminal conviction - all of those things - it can spin out the length of time an application will take to be completed. But as I say, in broad averages, the biggest single source of these people that we have in the world is doing a creditable job with the temporary worker flow.
On the immigration side, where people decide right up front that they are going to come to Canada on an immigrant visa, again, the processing times in the context of the overall program are pretty good.
Worldwide, we complete 25% of all applications from skilled workers in 6 months. These will normally include the high-priority cases, including people with arranged employment, or business and investor applicants in the business immigration category.
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Some 50% of all cases are completed within 9 months, and at the outside, 80% of cases are completed in 13 months. These are relatively long delays from the employer's perspective, but there is always the opportunity for somebody who wants to immigrate to come initially as a temporary worker and resolve the immigration question while they are here, through an office such as Buffalo, New York.
Having perceived this question of urgent need and growing need in the high-tech field, our two departments, HRD and Immigration Canada, have been working with the private sector on a scheme to unblock it, particularly at the stage of the process where the employer is looking to have his or her requirement validated by HRD, so Immigration can then work on the problem of filling that with the person they have selected. The document I've handed out describes the process in some detail, but I will ask my colleague Dougall Aucoin to give the background on how this project emerged and where it's going.
The Chairman: Go right ahead.
Mr. Dougall Aucoin (Director, Economic Policy and Programs, Selection Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think the pressure started building with the industry back in the summer of 1996, when we first got contacted by a couple of the provincial associations, who were indicating at the time that they expected significant shortages in the industry over the coming years. Some of their comments were coming forward as a result of a study that had been commissioned by the Human Resources Sector Councils, which identified some significant shortages in the industry, shortages that would not be met by the graduating classes and institutions in Canada over the coming years as well as shortages that could not be met by our normal recruitment efforts through immigration.
As a result of those initial contacts we then started some homework with Industry Canada, Human Resources Development, and the Software Sector Council, which represents the interests of both the workers and the employers in the industry sector, to see if we could find a solution to this shortfall. The focus over the last three or four months has been on trying to carve out those areas in the industry where there is significant supply shortage or demand excess in the industry. We've been giving the industry partners the role of basically defining those job descriptions as well as the wages and working conditions in which those individuals would be operating in Canada over the coming years if we were to open our process in terms of validation and the immigration process itself.
At the moment the industry has been able to provide us with three job descriptions. We are working towards a complement of six areas where the industry sector has identified that there is significant shortage. The solutions of the industry, we are told, are imminent. As soon as we have these areas identified, as Mr. Girard indicated, we will be sending an instruction to our missions abroad on how to process these by an expedited process, following receipt of a confirmation from our partner, Human Resources Development, which must give us the advice that there is significant demand in those sectors and that no Canadians are available for those jobs.
Mr. Girard: On changes after the directive goes out, today, if a company in Kanata wants to hire a software engineer in India, they need to prove the need to HRD; one of the local offices of Human Resources Canada. That document is then processed and sent abroad to confirm there is a need. The applicant who has been recruited abroad then has to go through the immigration process. So there is a fairly time-consuming component of work to be done in Canada before anything ever starts overseas.
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Under the new arrangement with the blanket validation of six of these high-tech occupations, the employer will simply be able to make a written offer to a candidate living abroad. That person will file an application and a job offer at a visa office and the immigration office will simply verify that the person is qualified and that the job offer is made in good faith by a reputable Canadian company. It would be quite a bit shorter for the employer and more transparent.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
We'll proceed with our questioning. Because of the time factor, we'll give each party nine minutes. We'll stick to the nine minutes.
Go ahead, Mr. Nunez.
[Translation]
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez (Bourassa, BQ): Today we begin studying an issue which is important yet sensitive. There is a great deal of unemployment in Canada and in Quebec: 10% in Canada and 12% in Quebec. A million and a half people are looking for work and are unable to find employment and another million and a half have stopped looking for jobs.
I would like to point out to you that by undertaking such a study, we may give the impression that there is employment in Canada and jobs to be filled. The unemployed may therefore ask us why are doing this, which may cause us certain problems.
I think that the union movement in particular will be very reluctant with respect to the measures we intend to take to attract people from elsewhere, given that we already have a large number of unemployed graduates with PH.D. or masters degrees here in Canada. This is my first point.
Secondly, I have sat on this committee longer than anyone else, and I can tell you from experience, that we can always review the recommendations and send them to the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, but they will not be given any consideration. This was the case recently, when they reviewed the situation of Somalians without documents. The Department did not give any consideration to a recommendation. Consequently, how can we be sure that the situation will be any different today, and how can we ask very competent people to appear, people who will perhaps go to a lot of trouble for nothing? We're going to work a great deal, we're going to examine all of these issues carefully, and for what? As we have seen, up until now, the government has not taken any account whatsoever of our recommendations.
I have several questions for these two individuals, but I would like first of all to encourage them to speak in French from time to time, and not always in English. People who hold important position in the Public Service must be bilingual or at least make an effort along this line, personally, when I am in English Canada, I always or nearly always speak in English, although I am not an anglophone.
First of all, I would like to know whether a comprehensive study has been made of this issue. Has any research been undertaken? Are there any statistics?
Mr. Aucoin: Yes. A study was published by the Human Resources Sector Councils. They studied the labour market over the next decade and tried to establish where there would be labour shortages over the next few years.
If my memory is correct, I believe that they identified a shortage of approximately 20,000 jobs over the next few years. I think that they took all of the people in the student sectors, such as the universities, community colleagues, etc into account.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: What is the title of this study?
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Mr. Aucoin: I will try to find the name of this study for you.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Could we have a copy of it?
Mr. Aucoin: Yes, of course.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Mr. Chairman, I would like us to have some copies.
Mr. Aucoin: We certainly could send you a copy. The concerns raised by the information processing sector were based on this study, which provided the starting point for us.
I have just been given a copy of the report. Perhaps I could table it? We will send a copy to every member of the committee.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: I would like to know how these 20,000 jobs are to be distributed in Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia and in the other provinces.
Mr. Aucoin: I am not aware of all the details provided in the report.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Could you indicate the sectors to us?
Mr. Aucoin: I couldn't even to that. I believe that certain individuals who worked on this labour market study will be appearing before this committee in the not too distant future and they will be able to answer all of your questions.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Do you have a list of the professions that are the most in demand in Canada?
Mr. Aucoin: We do not have a complete list yet. We made a point of asking our partners to work with the industrial sectors in order to identify specific professions where there would be a big demand. We did, however, send you a copy of the study undertaken in the telecommunication software designers sector. This profession is a special case. There are many positions available in Canada, but we do not have enough qualified people to fill them.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Could we obtain a copy of this list enumerating the professions that are the most in demand in Canada? I contacted the Quebec Ministry of Immigration and I know that we have this list in Quebec and that anybody can consult it.
Mr. Aucoin: This list of professions in demand to which you refer concern self-employed workers in general. We have a similar list that pertains to self-employed workers in Canada. This is part of the regulations on the immigration of skilled workers, and we can certainly send it to the committee as well.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: The Corel company has been mentioned in certain documents. Do you know whether or not this company has taken any steps to deal with the shortage of skilled personnel? Are you familiar with this company?
Mr. Aucoin: Yes. There is Corel, Nortel and other companies. The study was to provide an overview of everything that was being done by the industry to try to meet the requirements of the sector, such as training plans and the development of its human resources in general. The study concluded that, despite all of the efforts being made, this sector was not going to meet its requirements.
[English]
The Chairman: Thank you very much. We'll go now to Mr. Chatters.
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Ref.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I share some of the concerns of my colleague, but I think some of those questions are better answered by Human Resources Canada than Immigration. I do, though, have a number of questions.
After you've identified these six areas where there are shortages and then you propose to fast-track the immigration of these individuals, what safeguards have you put in place to ensure that, during this fast-tracking process, any potential Canadian candidates won't be overlooked when you're going directly to fast-track these individuals from outside Canada?
Mr. Girard: The project, by definition, will exclude any consideration of available Canadians. It will be taken as a given that there aren't any for the jobs in question, for those areas specified in the six job descriptions.
Mr. David Chatters: That would concern me as a Canadian, especially if I was one that was seeking employment in that field. The fact that you weren't even required to look for a Canadian first before you applied overseas would be of considerable concern, I should think.
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Mr. Aucoin: Perhaps I could add that the process of arriving at these job descriptions was included as a consideration when we were looking at this issue of whether or not there were Canadians available. For the moment, then, we would be trying to pilot this approach as a facilitative process for a period of six months. We expect that over that period, along with industry and HRDC, we will be basically monitoring entry in those particular professions. We will probably be either modifying the job descriptions, adding to them, or deleting them as industry demand changes. Over time, we will be able to adjust if an excess demand builds within Canada as a result of this particular initiative.
Mr. David Chatters: If people in these professions are in Canada on work visas, can those people then apply for landed immigrant status or apply to renew their work permits from within Canada?
Mr. Girard: They can do both. They usually apply at the central processor in Buffalo, New York, and they're screened and documented from Buffalo. If they want to renew their employment authorization, they do that through our processor in Vegreville, Alberta.
Mr. David Chatters: Do they have to leave Canada and go to Buffalo, New York, to apply?
Mr. Girard: They can send the application by mail, but at the point of either the interview or landing, they have to leave Canada.
Mr. David Chatters: Are they thereby allowed to bypass some of the requirements of someone applying for landed immigrant outside status when it comes to medical examinations and those kinds of things?
Mr. Girard: No, the standard examination is applied.
Mr. David Chatters: So if they apply in Buffalo, New York, and they're in Ottawa, Canada, where do they take the medical?
Mr. Girard: They can do it downtown.
Mr. David Chatters: It becomes part of the application?
Mr. Girard: That's correct.
Mr. David Chatters: Are you aware of the numbers of people who are now in Canada on work visas and who have applied for landed immigrant status?
Mr. Girard: The number of people who apply to our processor in Buffalo, New York, averages about 1,700 per month. Of those, about 45% are resident in Canada temporarily in some capacity or other. But it's a floating population; people are coming in and out, people are being landed, people are leaving.
Mr. David Chatters: If you have a foreign worker working in Canada on a work visa, who becomes responsible for the provision of medical insurance and the whole range of social benefits?
Mr. Girard: It depends on the province, but the employer normally provides a medical package for those people not covered by provincially insured schemes.
Mr. David Chatters: In some cases, does the federal government cover those costs?
Mr. Girard: No, in the immigration process in Canada, we only provide medical care to people who are are indigent.
Mr. David Chatters: In these areas in which there is a shortage of expertise and experience, is it common for people in Canada to have their work visas renewed beyond three years?
Mr. Girard: I don't think it's common for any visa to be extended beyond three years, but I'd have to check the indices. The only people who stay long-term on employment authorizations are usually people in the live-in caregiver program. The life of others is relatively short, other than for those people who are processing for landed immigrant status within Canada on humanitarian grounds.
Mr. David Chatters: For both landed immigrant status and work visas, has the time required to approve people for work visas improved in, say, the last five or six years, or is it now a lengthier process than it used to be?
Mr. Girard: Both processes have improved as we have learned how to manage these flows better, how to apply risk management principles, and how to dispense with meaningless controls.
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As I mentioned in the opening, if a Canadian employer hired a person in Silicon Valley and was authorized by HRD to hire a foreign worker, and if that person was coming for less than six months, the authorization could be obtained over the counter at our consulate in Los Angeles on the same day the person applies. The central processor in Buffalo is now generally averaging 120 days for routine immigrant cases in all categories. These are all remarkably faster times than we were able to provide several years ago.
Mr. David Chatters: If it is in fact as easy as you suggest, and if that is what's happening, why are we exploring ways and means to speed up the process in order to get these people into Canada more quickly?
Mr. Girard: We're removing the red tape at the front end. Rather than making the employer prove the obvious, we're making it easier for both the employer and us when it comes to getting on with the job of filling the needs.
Mr. David Chatters: Thank you very much.
The Chairman: Mr. Cullen.
Mr. Roy Cullen (Etobicoke North, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.
[Translation]
Thank you very much, Mr. Girard and Mr. Aucoin.
[English]
While I share some of the reservations of the members opposite, given the high unemployment in Canada, I think this is a policy instrument that is required and desirable in the short and medium runs. I think the longer-term solution, though, is to build institutions here in Canada to provide people with the required skills and training. We can then grow our industries with our own people.
I know my colleagues and others are working toward such an objective. In Etobicoke North, for example, I'm working with Humber College and other educational institutions, and I know Monsieur Bélanger is doing the same thing here in Ottawa. As a short-term approach, though, I think this is highly desirable and necessary.
In terms of the capacity or process that you would have for monitoring these trends, a lot of these industries are changing rapidly. The skill sets, the requirements, are changing rapidly. For example, I talked to my colleague Mr. Bélanger about the software difficulties here, and then I went back to my riding and talked to a number of executives. The problem in my riding was not so much one in information technology. In the aerospace sector, it was one of mechanical engineers.
I suspect that these sectoral skills imbalances, if you like, vary by region and industry. They will evolve and change over time. I wonder if you could comment on the process you would have in place, presumably with HRD, to track this on a timely basis and in order make adjustments where necessary.
Mr. Aucoin: When the issue was first brought forward to us, it was basically an Ontario-specific issue. As we started delving more into the problem of the shortage of software programmers, however, we soon realized that recruiting was not an Ontario-specific issue.
In terms of the details of how we will monitor and how industry will ask, it's a partnership. It's basically an industry-driven process at the moment, and I think exactly just how we're going to monitor the evolution of the industry over the coming months is still being discussed. We're at the table this week to basically try to iron out who will take on some of the responsibilities, to determine how the contacts are going to be done, and to make sure we're kept abreast of the developments as new sectors close and other new sectors open.
One of the issues in this particular industry is also that the jobs are changing very quickly. We know that some of the ways in which we have been defining the jobs have not been adequate to meet the demand. That has been part of the problem in that since the sector has been changing so rapidly, the descriptions that we use to define the jobs are not keeping pace with what's evolving in the industry.
Mr. Roy Cullen: This might be just a suggestion in terms of.... Sometimes industry will come forward and indicate that there are some shortages. I got off the phone today with a member of a company - and this was a totally different issue - who doesn't know what tools or what levers are available. The company might therefore just say it can't get this thing done.
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I realize it's the responsibility of industry to come forward, but you might want to think of some more proactive way of identifying these shortages. I'm sure at the industry association level there's more dialogue, but at the company level some of them who may not be members of an association might throw their hands up in the air and say there is nothing they can do.
Mr. Aucoin: Yes. I think Human Resources Development has been working quite hard over the last years to try to get quite a number of the industry sectors to group together and look at their own human resource needs. I know a number of these sector councils are looking at the work we are now doing in information technology to see if they can use some of this work to promote their own cause.
The Chairman: Mr. Bélanger.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa - Vanier, Lib.): Merci, Monsieur le président.
In a broader approach to this, I too share some of the concerns that we're taking jobs away from Canadians, so I want to make sure there's no doubt - and if there is doubt, then let's put it on the table - that there is indeed a shortfall in the information technology categories, in particular in the software area.
Is there doubt about us having a shortfall? Is there a lack of trained people with the needed skills?
Mr. Aucoin: There might be a doubt in a generalized sense. There are some areas within software engineering where there is no shortfall. There are some computer programmers who are in Canada and are available. That's why we've been working with the industry sector to carve out those sectors where there are no Canadians available and where there is expected to be a significant shortage over the coming year.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Are you satisfied that there are such areas where we lack people with expertise?
Mr. Aucoin: Yes. Basically this is being led by the companies and by the employee associations themselves. So, yes, I believe what they are telling me.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Okay.
I know we should perhaps be asking this of Industry Canada, but is there an acknowledgement that for every job filled, whether by a Canadian or by someone coming from abroad, there is a spin-off effect in the economy? Is that acknowledged as a fact? Maybe you want to comment on that. Can you?
Mr. Aucoin: No, I wouldn't. Generally we recognize that whenever employment is generated in an economy, there are some spin-off effects, but whether the spin-off effects are as a result of bringing in a foreign worker as opposed to Canadian-born worker is not clear.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: I was not insensitive to the little dig - people being quoted in the media - that this can take 18 months to 30 months at times. You have some statistics here that would demonstrate otherwise.
There must be some anecdotes about this where those were indeed the timeframes, because some companies have made these representations and I imagine they're not making them in the absence of any proof.
Would you care to comment on any of those cases that take so long?
Mr. Girard: Oh, yes, everyone has an anecdote that will relate to these long delays. We deal with a million people a year overseas. We make mistakes. Sometimes we lose track of cases and sometimes an officer can't make a decision, so things get pushed off and we generate unacceptably long delays.
There are cases where you get caught in a rush of higher-priority cases. We're not, for instance, interviewing new independent immigrant applicants in New Delhi because we are trying to catch up with the family class backlog, so there will be a slowdown in our attention to the independent applicants for the next little while.
If our communication about the options is good, the general situation can be resolved. The immigrant application doesn't have to be submitted up front, even if it's the long-term intention of the individual to stay. They can enter in one of these shortage occupations temporarily, start work and get the application processed abroad, so the time taken to process the application is used up while the person is gainfully employed and relieving part of the skills shortage.
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Often the application delay results from characteristics of the applicant himself or herself. We go into negotiations with provinces, with employers and with others. One of the things usually on the table is that we want guaranteed fast tracking for this particular category of clientele, when in fact whether or not you can fast track often depends upon the nature of the applicant and his or her problems.
A person with a criminal record will always take longer to deal with than a person whose sheet is clean. A person who has responsibilities towards a separated or divorced spouse or dependants will always take longer to deal with than a single individual or somebody with a family. And times can spin out. After Tiananmen in Hong Kong we were inundated with new applications, and the low-priority independents had to wait for four years.
But these aren't the people we're talking about today, I would hope. I would hope we're able to discern the priorities better.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: A final question, Mr. Chairman.
This is a request for information, if it's at all possible to obtain it from the department. You mentioned New Delhi as being the area from which the highest number of applicants come. Would you have, and could you make available to the members of the committee, some stats on these 4,700 that you mentioned, their countries of origin and the kinds of degrees or background they bring? It might be quite useful if you could provide that.
Mr. Girard: If we could perhaps speak outside the session about the specifics, we can distil the data however you want. It'll take us a while but we can do that.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
Before you go I have a special request about the process you were talking about at the beginning, Ralph. From the point when the applicant makes his application to the very end, do you have a flow chart that shows us the various stages and pattern of development, especially the relationship between the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and the Department of Human Resources Development and where they relate in that process? Is that possible? Do we have something like that available?
Mr. Girard: I'm not sure if we have one in the can, but we can create one fairly easily.
The Chairman: I think that would be very helpful for all the members of the committee.
Mr. Girard: Okay.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Now we'll call upon members from the Department of Human Resources Development. We'll proceed with the second phase of our afternoon meeting. We have with us Sheila Morrison, policy consultant, foreign worker policy and programs, sectoral partnerships delivery division; Suzanne Keating, senior industrial consultant, service sectors, sectoral partnerships delivery, human resources partnerships; and Ken Donnelly, manager, primary sectors and programs, from the very same division.
Thanks to all three of you for appearing and taking time from your very complex and busy schedules. We appreciate it. Do you have some format for your presentation this afternoon?
Mr. Ken Donnelly (Manager, Primary Sectors and Programs, Sectoral Partnerships Delivery, Human Resources Partnerships, Department of Human Resources Development): Yes, Mr. Chairman. We'll share our presentation amongst the three of us, and then we'll be open for questions.
The Chairman: All right. Who's going to be first?
Mr. Donnelly: I'll start, sir.
The Chairman: Thanks, Mr. Donnelly.
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Mr. Donnelly: I'm pleased to be here today to explain HRDC's current policy on foreign workers. With me are Suzanne Keating and Sheila Morrison, who work with me on this particular file and in the area of software.
Canada's foreign worker policy permits the admission of workers from other countries whose contributions will produce positive economic benefits, but only after Canadians have had full access to employment opportunities. Our intention is to facilitate the entry of foreign workers the admission of whom will have the following effects: to create or maintain employment and career opportunities for Canadians; to transfer specialized skills and technology or provide training opportunities to Canadian workers; to strengthen the competitive position of Canadian-based companies operating in the global marketplace; or to create or expand international opportunities for Canadians. At the same time, the federal government will not allow the entry of foreign workers whose admission would impact adversely on the labour market and on the economy.
About the process of validation, generally temporary foreign workers require an employment authorization, about which you heard earlier, which must be validated by the Human Resource Centre of Canada, or HRCC. The validation of offer of employment by an HRCC is a labour market process which determines that the employment of a foreign worker will not have an adverse impact on job opportunities for Canadians. It's normally accepted by visa and immigration officers as the basis for an employment authorization, on the assumption, of course, that the worker meets the qualifications of the job and the requirements of the Immigration Act.
Some jobs are exempt from the need for validation, for instance where there are humanitarian or social considerations or where Canada is bound by international commitments or reciprocal arrangements, or to allow workers to engage in volunteer projects or in approved educational, research, and scientific projects, or to facilitate the admission of workers who will create or maintain employment or generate other benefits for Canadians.
On the role of our HRCCs or the former Canada Employment Centres, the HRCCs encourage Canadian employers to pursue responsible human resource planning practices and help them to determine if and when foreign worker recruitment is required. The HRCCs then provide an opinion to the visa or immigration officer on the efforts made by the employer to hire or train Canadian workers, on the duties to be performed, on the qualifications required for the position, and on the wages and working conditions offered.
This opinion is based on several factors, including whether the employer has made reasonable efforts to hire or train Canadians for the position; in situations where there may be Canadians who could be trained or who are available, whether the employer has nonetheless demonstrated that the employment of a foreign worker will help create or maintain employment benefits or opportunities for Canadians; whether the wages and working conditions offered are sufficient to attract and retain Canadians in the job in question; whether the employment of a foreign worker will have an effect on a labour dispute; and whether the employment offer is bona fide and is not designed to be inaccessible to Canadians.
If the employer's request is approved, the HRCC will issue a letter of validation to the employer and to Citizenship and Immigration.
I thought we would comment briefly on the NAFTA provisions, because they are a new, integral part of what is happening.
About foreign workers, the NAFTA provisions make it easier for business persons and business visitors to enter Canada. For instance, it removes the need for validation of an offer of employment for all business persons covered by the agreement. It also expedites the application process by permitting the issuance of an employment authorization at a port of entry for professionals and intra-company transferees.
NAFTA does not replace the general provisions dealing with temporary foreign workers or the need for temporary workers to meet the licensing or certification requirements of their profession. The agreement has no impact on universal requirements, including those related to passports, identification documentation, medical examinations, and safety and security.
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I've basically set out the general parameters on how we work, and I'm going to ask Suzanne to address more specifically some of the human resource issues in the high-technology field.
Ms Suzanne Keating (Senior Industrial Consultant, Service Sectors, Sectoral Partnerships Delivery, Human Resources Partnerships, Department of Human Resources Development): Of great concern in the information technology sector today is the supply of appropriately skilled IT workers across Canada. Many employers are reporting intense competition for a limited number of high-skilled workers. A number of employers report they are forced to leave some of their IT positions vacant because they cannot locate appropriately skilled candidates. There are employers who believe that all too often companies acquire the skilled workers they need by raiding other companies. This approach adds no new human resources to meet overall industry needs and many argue that it has an extremely negative impact in that employers are hesitant to invest in the training and development of employees because they are afraid they will lose those workers to other companies.
While the exact shortage is subject to discussion, many support the view that there is a critical and worsening shortage of IT workers across Canada and that this shortage is hurting the competitiveness of Canadian companies, stunting their growth and threatening Canada's ability to attract foreign investment, as it is difficult to demonstrate to potential investors that Canada is able to supply the IT human resources needed for Canadian-based operations.
On the other hand, a number of IT workers are reporting that they're unable to find employment and believe the estimated shortage or skills crisis is exaggerated. Whichever way you look at it, it's obvious that work must be done to increase the supply of IT workers, either by increasing the net number of IT workers in Canada or by creating a better match between the Canadian IT workers looking for work and employers looking to fill positions. In fact, it would appear that we need to do both.
A number of strategies are required to address issues related to the IT labour supply, including a long-term strategy to influence the education and training system so that more students opt for IT training and education, the system can handle a greatly increased number of IT students, and educators are reskilled and programs modified so that students graduate with the current and relevant mix of skills that employers are seeking. We also require a strategy to reskill current Canadian IT workers and we need a short-term, and ideally temporary, strategy focused on the greater use of temporary foreign workers to fill IT jobs until sufficient numbers of appropriately skilled Canadian workers are available to fill the positions.
As you've heard, a pilot project related to this issue is being developed in partnership with the Software Human Resource Council. The Software Human Resource Council is a national, non-profit human resources sector council established to bring employers, software workers, educators and government together to address human resource priorities in the software industry. The council has been funded jointly by industry and Human Resources Development Canada and is governed by a board of directors comprised of representatives from industry and the education and training sector. Through the software council, partnerships have been formed, strategies have been developed and actions have been implemented to address human resource issues in the software sector. The software council is a catalyst. It is making things happen.
With regard to the foreign worker pilot project, Human Resources Development Canada is working with provincial governments, Industry Canada, Citizenship and Immigration Canada and the Software Human Resource Council and its industry constituents - that is, companies who employ software workers. The pilot project is aimed at meeting immediate software-related labour needs of employers by expediting the entry of temporary foreign workers in a way that ensures Canadian IT workers are not negatively impacted upon and employers are able to access appropriately skilled foreign workers in an effective and timely manner.
Sheila Morrison is now going to provide a bit more information on the actual pilot project.
Ms Sheila Morrison (Policy Consultant, Foreign Worker Policy and Programs, Sectoral Partnerships Delivery Division, Department of Human Resources Development): As mentioned previously, the objective of this pilot project is to expedite the temporary entry of skilled workers in order to meet the current demands of the Canadian labour market by streamlining HRDC's validation process. This pilot abides by the legislative requirement of providing an opinion to Citizenship and Immigration Canada concerning possible adverse effects to the job opportunities for Canadians, yet it replaces the time-consuming, case-by-case decision-making process currently performed at the HRCC level.
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The Software Human Resources Council will provide the necessary labour market information in the form of job descriptions to HRDC. The job descriptions outline specific skill sets that are in shortage and the appropriate wages and working conditions for those occupations.
Those job descriptions will be appended to a national validation letter from HRDC to the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. The letter will replace the administrative procedure we have called ``validation of offer of employment'', mentioned previously. The immigration or visa officer will then have the information provided in the job descriptions against which individual applications for employment authorizations will be assessed. The proposed commencement date of the pilot is April 1, 1997. A continuation of the project after six months will depend on an evaluation.
Mr. Donnelly: I hope we've been able to provide an adequate explanation of HRDC's role in foreign worker policy, and specifically in the area of software specialists. My associates and I will be pleased to clarify any points or answer any of your questions along that line.
The Chairman: Mr. Nunez.
[Translation]
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: I would like to ask you several questions. My first question pertains to training. I have often heard it said that, in Canada, governments and businesses did not make enough effort or devote enough resources to training workers. We spend less money here in training than several European countries do.
What could the Department of Human Resources Development do to improve the training of Canadians so that they can fill positions in the high technology field? What are you doing and what is the size of your training budget?
[English]
Mr. Donnelly: In response to your question, our department is under an evolutionary stream at this point in time. The training mandate has been or is in the process of being shifted or moved to provincial governments, so the current training agreements we have in place are winding down. It's the expectation that provincial governments will take on the responsibility of training more and more Canadians.
[Translation]
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: This is not yet the case in Quebec, which has not signed the agreement.
[English]
Mr. Donnelly: You're absolutely correct, but I understand that officials are working on this particular transfer. I do not know when the negotiations will be completed.
[Translation]
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Could you give us an idea of the budget that your department has earmarked for training?
[English]
Mr. Donnelly: We've been shifting responsibilities and the funding is primarily flowing through our regional offices, so I would not have the exact numbers.
We've been out of workplace training for some time. Most of the training is linked to the unemployment insurance account, so I would not be able to give you specific numbers at this point in time.
As I was saying, the shift has been happening over the last year. There's been a marked de-emphasizing of our role in training. HRDC is shifting away from being a training department to being a department attacking other human resource issues.
Ms Keating: I would like to add that in terms of training, we're moving away from being involved in any type of direct training. Under our sectoral partnerships initiative, we deal with sector councils such as the Software Human Resources Council, and other industry sectors can come together to address common needs that they share.
In that process, we are very often involved in the identification of where the gaps are in terms of the skills that the sectors have, and through this strategic planning process they are able to more clearly identify what are their training needs.
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Through this partnership-type approach, they work with the education and training sectors to come up with a training plan or strategy - perhaps an overall strategy; it might be a very targeted training strategy - that will bring these partners together to try to come up with a training solution to some of their needs. That's one aspect of what we do.
While we aren't involved in the direct delivery of the training, we're involved in strategic planning around training and around identifying training needs and coming up with training solutions to the different sectors, or across sectoral groups that are able to identify common needs.
[Translation]
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: I will ask you the same question that I asked the officials from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. Have you any documents, books, studies, research or statistics that pertain to the number of foreign workers required by Canada?
[English]
Mr. Donnelly: As a department we have not gone out and done any analysis of workers outside of Canada; our mandate is to deal with Canadians in the Canadian labour force. I cannot give you any categorical numbers, or research that's been done, in the sense of the labour force outside of Canada.
We are cognizant of the shortfalls in the Canadian labour market. There are specific niches in the Canadian labour market where the ability of the education system has been falling behind. The IT sector is one we are quite aware of.
We have also just done a study in the biotechnology area. The industry representatives on that particular study flagged as one of their high priorities the need to recruit from outside of Canada highly specialized individuals in biotechnology.
We know there are other sectors, as my colleague from Citizenship and Immigration mentioned, where you occasionally get the niche sort of situation from time to time - I think one of the committee members mentioned aerospace as one example. It fluctuates, but the IT sector has been flagged to us over the last couple of years as one where there is a shortfall of qualified Canadians, and as such is perhaps harmful to the growth of Canadian companies.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Could you tell us about the wages and working conditions in the high-technology sectors? Why can this industry not attract more people? Is it because of the wages or the working conditions?
Ms Keating: There are actually a number of contributing factors. One of the primary factors always cited is the fact that there just are not enough young people being prepared for IT occupations. They're not being prepared at the kindergarten through to high school level. Not enough students are taking the science courses needed to get into the higher education.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: But what about the wages and the working conditions?
Ms Keating: I don't think we have any specific information as to whether or not the wages and working conditions are actually making it impossible for them to find the workers. There has been discussion in the industry that they lose workers to the States because they can offer better wages - better wages; not necessarily working conditions. But we have nothing concrete to that effect.
[Translation]
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Recently, there was a strike involving certain Air Canada airlines, and the pilots met with us. They told us that American pilots were flying these planes in Canada without any licence, without any authorization. Are you aware of this? How could such a situation exist?
[English]
Mr. Donnelly: That's a good question, sir. The enforcement of the Immigration Act rests with the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. We deal with Canadian employers. I would be surprised in that I would think any Canadian employer who knowingly hired illegal workers would do so taking a risk that he or she would fall afoul of the Immigration Act and perhaps be caught up in its enforcement. But I was not aware of the situation you raised in your question.
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The Chairman: Mr. Chatters, do you have anything to add?
Mr. David Chatters: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
This pilot project is due to begin on April 1, 1997, I think, so I guess no recommendations from this committee will have an impact on that pilot project. You've already put it in place.
Mr. Donnelly: I'm sure we would take any recommendation you offer us and incorporate it in our thinking.
Mr. David Chatters: I'm not a regular member of the committee, but I would really have reservations about authorizing and supporting this type of a pilot project without seeing specific measures taken by the industry to solve the problem of a lack of workers.
I'm not terribly familiar with this particular area of employment. I'm more familiar with my area of natural resources.
I can certainly demonstrate a number of instances where the industry has partnered with elementary schools and high schools to help produce the kind of workers they need. Before I could recommend that the industry have a right to fast-track foreign workers, I would like to see evidence that they're doing those kinds of things to produce skilled workers in Canada.
Second, again in the natural resource industry, in the Hibernia project part of the stipulation of bringing in foreign workers to do the work they were unable to find Canadians to do was that a Canadian job share that job with that foreign worker in a training situation so that the skill would be passed on to a Canadian.
I see no reason why that same situation couldn't be put in place in this kind of situation. For every foreign worker that comes in there could be a requirement that a Canadian worker job shadow and job train with that foreign worker.
Those are the kinds of initiatives I'd like to see before we give carte blanche to go out and hire foreign workers and bring them into Canada.
I wonder if any of these kind of things are happening or if you've considered these kinds of things.
Mr. Donnelly: I understand that perhaps - and I may be incorrect - the executive director of the Software Human Resources Council is going to be a witness in front of this committee. He would probably be one of the best people to question about what the industry is doing to tackle human resource issues within Canada.
One of things we have been involved in is providing some youth projects to help the transition from school to work through a youth internship project, which is, I think, helping to fill the shortfall.
Turning to your point about the job shadowing situation, yes, it is really a unique aspect of the foreign worker policy that it has to be flexible in order to meet the dimensions of the regional aspects of Canada.
My colleagues who work in Atlantic Canada have tried, as I said, to work with employers to maximize any opportunity to create job opportunities for Canadians. That ability in regard to the admission of a foreign worker has given them a bit of a lever to work with Canadian employers to create opportunities and to create this aspect.
I'm not an expert in the software industry, but I think the problem here is of a larger magnitude. It's sheer supply and demand rather than one or two jobs on two or three sites. We will not abandon the strategy you outlined. That is the way we normally proceed and that's the way we will continue to proceed in most sectors. But we have felt so much pressure from the industry about this shortfall of qualified Canadians and the necessity to tap this global marketplace for IT expertise that in all fairness to this dynamic and growing part of the Canadian economy, we had to try to help them out in some way.
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Mr. David Chatters: Unfortunately, to help them out you simply put in place a program like you're proposing - or at least, it appears, from what I've seen of what you're proposing. You don't provide any incentive in the program for that industry to make the effort to train and produce Canadian workers. If you have restrictions on that program that make it substantially more expensive to hire a foreign worker to fill that job than it is to hire a Canadian, there is an incentive for that industry to train Canadians and to take part in that training of Canadians. I think that should be part of the program you're proposing.
Mr. Donnelly: I guess this question would perhaps be best addressed to employers, but it is extraordinarily cheap for a Canadian employer to recruit a Canadian here compared with searching abroad to find a qualified Canadian. I think most Canadian employers are business people at heart and will say, ``If I can find a highly qualified Canadian in my backyard, why would I spend money for a headhunter to search around Bombay or Hong Kong to find somebody else?'' I think there is a commitment in their human resource strategy to find qualified Canadians.
I would add that most of these Canadian employers have sons and daughters who hopefully are trying to find jobs in this labour market too, so I think they intrinsically try to recruit Canadian.
It's just that there seems to be such an incredible shortfall or gap between what the educational and college systems are providing and the skill demands and profiles that this particular element of the labour force is asking for.
Mr. David Chatters: I suggest that the industry itself is in some measure responsible for that shortage because of the lack of proactive programs through the industry to react to this shortfall that was identified many years ago. The fact that there was going to be a shortage was identified many years ago, yet there haven't been those kinds of proactive programs to deal with it.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. Mr. Cullen.
Mr. Roy Cullen: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
I would like to put a plug in. In Canada right now we have some underemployment with respect to immigrants who have qualified professionally in their native country and come to Canada. They are veterinarians, engineers and what have you, and local professional associations give them such a hard time to validate the credentials they've obtained that they're underemployed. We have people who qualified as engineers, say, in India or wherever, and they're driving cabs because they can't get recognized as engineers in Canada.
I know the Department of Citizenship and Immigration has been looking at this, but I think HRDC should be pushing it as well. A few of these problems we're discussing now, although not all of them, could be addressed, I suspect, if we had a more progressive policy in that regard.
Have you touched on this issue at all?
Mr. Donnelly: This issue is one that's been with us for some time. You're quite right. There is some work going on between the departments on this certification issue. It's not an easy one to resolve, because often the licensing and certification process is outside of the federal government's mandate and responsibility. As you pointed out, it rests with professional organizations, or in some cases, with licensing that's done at a provincial level.
I know there are efforts to try to ensure - and again, it's more in the domain of Citizenship and Immigration Canada - that the independent applicants they select to come to Canada can integrate smoothly into the Canadian economy.
Mr. Roy Cullen: On page 7 of your presentation, you say that some jobs are exempt from the need for validation. You list four examples. That confused me a little. Could you give an example of each of those criteria? For example, I didn't see the linkage between humanitarian or social considerations and job validation exemptions.
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Mr. Donnelly: These exemptions are really ones offered by Citizenship and Immigration, but I will try to help you out there.
I should say that when you actually look at the number of temporary workers coming into Canada, roughly 70% are exempted from HRDC involvement. We have the smaller share of that. We have only about 30% of all the temporary workers. So most of them come in under one of the exemptions one way or another.
I will do my best to try to highlight what they mean. In terms of humanitarian and social considerations, I understand that some of the refugee claimants or people who are awaiting processes, because they are not landed or are not citizens, are provided work permits or authorizations to work. For that reason, there's no referral to the labour market. They're here because they're refugee claimants and waiting to work.
Where Canada is bound by an international commitment or reciprocal arrangements - frequently we sign international agreements that facilitate the exchange of scientists or film crews and so on - or where there is a reciprocity type of agreement with a country or a province where Canadians are allowed to work outside Canada in places where there's no labour market test, then we don't apply such a test here in Canada.
As for volunteer projects, educational research and scientific projects, if NASA had a scientific engineer coming to work on something for the space station, there's no labour market test.
Generally speaking, for those who create or maintain employment of general benefit to Canadians, there's a whole raft of different types of exemptions that I really don't know that well.
As I said, this is the 70% we don't have anything much to do with. We deal with the 30% where we feel that a labour market test makes sense.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. We now go to Mr. McTeague.
Mr. Dan McTeague (Ontario, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
This was a very interesting presentation. I'm interested here in ascertaining, within HRCC, the process of validation. Who do you have who would be able to distinguish whether a position that a company seeks to have filled is bona fide, is actually one that can't be filled by a Canadian? I presume Immigration Canada is relying upon you to come up with that information. How do you become the experts in the field?
Ms Morrison: Usually the decision is based on a number of different factors. There are a number of different indicators within the application. To provide an example, if an employer were not willing whatsoever to make efforts to hire or train a Canadian, we might suspect that the offer to hire a foreign worker is not a bona fide offer, thinking that perhaps there is an artificial barrier created against the employment of a Canadian candidate.
For instance, if the requirements the employer was demanding were exaggerated to a level higher than would normally be required for the position because the candidate they had selected from overseas would meet those requirements and a Canadian could not, we would look at it as possibly not a bona fide offer to a Canadian because of artificial barriers.
So the council might take into consideration a number of indicators.
Mr. Dan McTeague: Mr. Donnelly, you referred a little earlier - and I will bring this to you as well, Ms Morrison - to the question of the biotechnical industry. Do you have the ability, in an area that is particularly niche, that has just evolved, that is relatively breakthrough, avant garde and futuristic - I can't use all the adjectives for what these things are - to determine the legitimacy of that particular occupation sought?
For instance, if a large drug manufacturer, such as Glaxo Wellcome or Merck Frosst, were to come to you and say they have a position, and they give you a 15-titled position that can only be filled by one person living in Switzerland, how do you respond to that?
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Mr. Donnelly: That's an excellent question. Our human resource study in the biotech area has just been released in the last couple of months, and we are working with them to look at the prospect of setting up a sector council. There has been no final decision on that. I would be pleased to provide to the committee copies of the recommendations of that study. One of the things they did flag in their lexicon is having a strategic immigration approach. There is always a bit of difficulty, and we are not experts in all the nuances of various subsets of biochemistry or pharmaceutical chemistry. What we try to do in many of these cases is touch base with the professional organizations and in some cases with labour unions or whomever and basically get their advice and incorporate that in our advice to Citizenship and Immigration.
When you get into some of these esoteric types of jobs, we basically go with the position put forth by the company unless we have any type of evidence that would dictate that we should not. I should emphasize that the final decision for anybody to enter as a temporary worker always rests with Citizenship and Immigration. HRDC's role is to provide advice.
Mr. Dan McTeague: My final question is in that area, because it is somewhat of concern and perhaps even disconcerting that we don't really know. We're really in the hands of those who have an interest in drawing someone from another country, particularly if there's an industrial purpose.
When you mentioned biomedical, a number of bells went off in my head, given the past whereby the country has surrendered - and this is a matter for another committee, obviously - an extremely long period of patent protection in order to receive research and development.
My final question deals with the biomedical. Do you have an idea of where the foreign worker is generally being sought, what countries are primary in terms of where we go to get them in order to fill those gaps?
Mr. Donnelly: Not offhand.
Mr. Dan McTeague: You're not familiar with that.
Mr. Donnelly: I'm not familiar with the recruitment patterns of the Canadian employers. I know there may be some anecdotal evidence in the study itself, but I'm not familiar with exactly where they recruit from.
Mr. Dan McTeague: Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chairman: Mr. Bélanger.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: I have two questions. The first is on the validation process itself. Perhaps you could very quickly take us through it and give us a sense of what it implies, how long and whether or not this is tacked onto the overall process of getting someone to work in Canada. That's number one.
Two, with regard to this pilot project, I wonder what the intentions are in terms of where it would be tried. Would it be in all the offices or would it apply to the whole world, essentially? What are the department's expectations and the measuring sticks by which you will determine six months or whenever down the road if it's worthwhile continuing?
I have a tonne more questions, but I'll keep it to those two.
Ms Morrison: I'll start with the first part of your question, the validation process. An employer would approach the local human resource centre and obtain the information required, which the counsellor within the HRDC would provide, outlining the type of submission and type of information needed by the employer in order for that counsellor to render this opinion to CIC. They would expect the employer to show some evidence of efforts to hire or to train Canadians and to outline the duties and requirements of the position, the wages they are offering for the position.
The HRCC would also ensure that there was no labour dispute on site at the time, and as mentioned previously, would look at indicators to ensure that this is a bona fide offer of employment. The employer submits this information, the counsellor enters it into our computer system and it is sent electronically to the port of entry that the employer has indicated the farm worker would apply at.
.1700
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Any idea of time?
Ms Morrison: Timeframes for which part of the process?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: This thing you've just described.
Ms Morrison: The validation process? It's highly dependent on the accuracy of the submission and information provided by the employer. For instance, if the employer had not made any effort to seek a Canadian through an institution as a graduate, through advertising methods, through contacting associations or unions and so on, they may be asked to conduct a test of the labour market to ensure that any Canadian who might be available would have an opportunity to apply for the job.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: What's a test of the labour market?
Ms Morrison: Exactly what I said, to check if there are recent graduates from universities, possibly an advertising requirement or putting an ad in a trade journal, if applicable, or association bulletin, that sort of thing. That would be the test of the labour market.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: What's the average time it takes?
Ms Morrison: For the whole process for the validation? That is hard to say. It depends on how much information is provided to the CEC in the first place.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: What's the shortest time it could take? What's the longest it could take?
Ms Morrison: For a straightforward case where you have all the information that's required, it could be a relatively short period of 5 to 10 working days.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Okay. And the longest?
Ms Morrison: That's not a number I could guess for everyone from B.C. to Newfoundland for every one of the HRCCs. I wouldn't have an indication of what the longest would be.
Mr. Donnelly: I'm afraid I'm going to have to take the same route as Mr. Girard. There are some complications and there will always be situations where some employers will not provide the information or there is some digging required to get a good, clear, precise -
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: If you take that route, he provided averages. Do you have those?
Mr. Donnelly: We do not have averages by offices. We did a bit of a test around a straightforward application and we checked with our offices in Edmonton, Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa, and a straightforward application, when the employer provides all the necessary information, takes roughly 5 to 10 working days.
The Chairman: I will terminate the discussion.
Thank you very much to our three witnesses for appearing and also for the printed document you've presented to us. There's much in there. If we have the time to digest it, it will help us tremendously.
I would ask members to please remain for another three or four minutes. We have a resolution that must be passed and two bits of information that I have to share with you.
The first bit of information, which will lead to a resolution, is that Mr. Nunez has expressed his desire to hear only one of the Order in Council nominations.
Is that correct, Mr. Nunez?
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Yes.
The Chairman: Fine. As a result, we have to rescind the motion adopted on March 5, 1997, and adopt the following instead:
- That the Committee invite Madeleine Dupont-Lévesque to appear on April 9, 1997 in relation
to our Order-in-Council nomination.
Motion agreed to
The Chairman: Next, Mr. Peric will not appear before the committee to deal with his private member's bill, Bill C-237, but he's expressed his desire to have two witnesses appear, Frank Marrocco, the lawyer, and a representative from the Canadian Police Association. We will have both witnesses appear at the very same time, make their presentations, and then we will deal with them after that.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Mr. Chairman, could we have another witness, the Canadian Council for Refugees? There are two witnesses. They come from another view, the counterview, but we should hear the opinion of the Canadian Council for Refugees.
The Chairman: Is it Mr. Peric's bill you're referring to?
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Yes.
Mr. Dan McTeague: I don't see that as relevant, Mr. Chairman, in terms of what's specifically within this bill.
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Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: This a bill that, it seems, is not supported by the majority. I don't know. But if it's a bill that will be supported by the majority, I would like to have another opinion, one different from those people.
The Chairman: That was just a request.
Regarding Mr. Peric's witnesses, we still have not received final confirmation that they will appear before us. Is that correct?
A voice: Yes.
The Chairman: A suggestion has been made by Mr. Nunez to bring in another witness before the committee. I would like to get some kind of response from the committee related to his request. We could follow through with the request. We could invite the group you are interested in, and see whether or not they would like to appear.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Yes. It's up to them to decide if they will come or not.
The Chairman: It's up to them to decide.
Mr. Dan McTeague: Mr. Chairman, I think the member who has proposed this bill has certainly seen the much wider picture than simply one that particular group of people - that is, the refugees....
My concern with this is that if this committee wishes to dispense with or address this issue, it should do so based on the recommendation of the member himself. More importantly, if we're going to invite the group proposed by my honourable colleague, there may be several other groups who will then also want to have a hearing, and you begin to involve yourself in quite a committee imbroglio.
The Chairman: I think we have to respond to that, yes.
Ms Maria Minna (Beaches - Woodbine, Lib.): I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. When are we looking at having these witnesses? At the next meeting when Mr. Peric was supposed to appear? On March 20?
The Chairman: March 20 was the date, but I think that has been changed, hasn't it? Oh, it's still March 20.
Ms Maria Minna: Or is it the 9th?
Mr. Dan McTeague: No, April 9 is the first one.
The Chairman: No, I think it's still March 20.
Ms Maria Minna: I was trying to get that clear, because as Mr. McTeague says, if we get into witnesses of one side or the other, the intention of having Mr. Peric come - and if he chooses not to come, it's his choice - was so that we could have him first of all brief the new members of the committee about what the bill means to him, and then what changes he was recommending, as he had suggested he wanted amendments.
There is no point in having witnesses if he's amending the bill and then we're having witnesses appear on that part of the bill - that's number one. I think we ought to first understand what is it he wants in the bill, and then we can have witnesses, if we are going to go that route.
The other is that if we get into having witnesses without the amendment, and you get us started, and then you have to somehow continue with one side or the other and back and forth, and you need the time for the other things we want to finish....
I would suggest we go back to Mr. Peric and say to him that we would appreciate his first clarifying what his position is, and get into hearings at another date - start the hearings later.
The Chairman: Mr. Cullen.
Mr. Roy Cullen: I want to echo the concern of my colleagues, and also point out that this issue - if I understand Mr. Peric's bill; I was here when he brought it last time - goes beyond simply refugees; it deals with deportations generally.
If we're going to have witnesses, it seems to me we should do it in the stages my colleague has suggested. Also, if you're looking at having witnesses, it seems to me you need to look at a broader group than just those that are proposed by our colleague or the member opposite.
The Chairman: I would like to make a ruling.
Mr. McTeague.
Mr. Dan McTeague: Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that I have heard from Mr. Peric before and know where he stands on this bill. I think most on this committee do. He's proposed - I think very generously and very judiciously - two witnesses for a brief period of time, at which point the bill could then be considered clause by clause.
I think his request is a reasonable one. We've been delaying this for some time. I think it would be appropriate for this committee to deal with it now - set the date of March 20, deal with the two witnesses, and get on with other business at hand.
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The Chairman: I was just going to suggest that. I'll rule from the chair that we have already spent a considerable time deciding what our schedule would be, and I think we shall stick to the schedule. I think it's too late to make any kind of change, so we'll roll right along according to the plans that we all agreed to in our last session.
Mr. Dan McTeague: Very good.
The Chairman: We will now go on to -
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Mr. Chairman, I made a motion and I would like a vote.
The Chairman: I didn't hear any motion.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: My motion is to invite the Canadian Council for Refugees.
The Chairman: Okay. We have a motion on the floor. Let's vote on this issue.
Ms Maria Minna: I request a point of clarification before we go on with any other motions,Mr. Chairman.
Did your ruling include the fact that when we discussed the schedule at the last meeting, that schedule meant that Mr. Peric would appear before us on the 20th, and not his witnesses? Is that your ruling, or is it different? I'm not sure I'm clear on what you are ruling.
Mr. Dan McTeague: I thought it was Mr. Peric's witnesses.
The Chairman: The resolution stated that Mr. Peric would appear before us, as would the representatives from the Canadian Police Association.
Ms Maria Minna: That was the resolution the last time.
The Chairman: That's right.
Ms Maria Minna: I just wanted to be clear on what it was you were ruling on.
The Chairman: Fine.
All right, let's roll along. We have a motion on the floor. I would now like to call for a vote on Mr. Nunez's motion.
Motion negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings]
The Chairman: The officials of Industry Canada could not accept our invitation for the meeting of March 11; however, they are very interested in the committee's study and are willing to appear before the committee during the week of April 6. We should decide right now whether or not we are still interested in hearing from them, and if so, when.
Mr. Bélanger, could you react to that?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: I don't know if anyone else has suggested any witnesses, but I believe you have a list I prepared.
The Chairman: This list of witnesses has been sent back. It's a very full list.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: If you want to go out to look at something, you -
The Chairman: That's right, you did a super job on it.
Yes, Mr. Chatters.
Mr. David Chatters: I'm new on this issue, but in view of the pilot project that's due to begin April 1, it seems that the thing to do would be to simply put the study on hold until that six-month pilot project has been completed. We could then bring the issue back and examine it in light of the results of the pilot project. The department is in fact proposing to fast-track foreign workers to solve the problem, so what are we studying?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Mr. Chairman, I would not support such a motion for the simple reason that we have only heard about one side of a three-sided coin - yours, mine and the facts, if you will. I think we owe it to the industry to hear its representatives. For instance, we've heard that processing a validation takes five to ten days. That is an optimum number. I've heard of cases in which this drags on for months. With all due respect to the officials, I don't think they were as forthcoming as the first set on that particular thing.
There is a concern here. There's no doubt about that. There is an opportunity here to look at it and to listen. I believe if we entertain some of these witnesses, there are other avenues they may wish to put forward as administrative ways of helping to alleviate the shortfall in software human resources generally, but in IT specifically. So just because we have one department willing to try one thing, I don't think we ought to stop looking at other things.
The Chairman: I think we have to decide right now whether or not we want to bring in Industry Canada. We would have to bring them in on a different date, simply because they can't come on March 11. That's the decision we have on the floor, and it has to be made right now. Do we want them?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: We have already decided that we want them.
The Chairman: Okay. Now, do you want suggestions for another date, or shall we leave it in the hands of the clerk?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Yes, I think that's a good idea.
The Chairman: Then I would recommend that the clerk take a look at this and make the necessary arrangements. Thank you very much.
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All right, then, who's going to come next week? No arrangements have been made with any of them.
For the second meeting, the high-tech industry, we have the Canadian Advanced Technology Association, Software Human Resources Council and the Ottawa-Carleton Research Institute.
Are there any comments regarding this? Are three too many or not enough?
Mr. Cullen and then Mr. Nunez.
Mr. Roy Cullen: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, maybe I'm jumping ahead - I should come in later - but is there anything planned for the aerospace industry? I noticed Pratt and Whitney. If there's something for aerospace, I would suggest some witnesses from my riding at the appropriate time. Is that possible?
The Chairman: Would you hand in that name?
Mr. Roy Cullen: Sure. You'll be looking at aerospace?
The Chairman: You're talking about the fourth meeting?
Mr. Roy Cullen: Is that when aerospace is being looked at?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Aerospace was not in the initial motion, but I have no problems.
Mr. Roy Cullen: I just saw Pratt and Whitney there.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Pratt and Whitney require IT professionals.
Mr. Roy Cullen: Oh, I see.
The Chairman: We could add it to the list.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: That suggestion came from the Canadian Advanced Technology Association as a company in that industry that requires IT people as well.
Mr. Roy Cullen: I can give a name of a company in aerospace in my riding experiencing the same problems with IT professionals.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: By all means.
The Chairman: I'm adding it to the list, then we can make a decision as to whether or not we'll call them.
Mr. McTeague.
Mr. Dan McTeague: Without adding to the list, I simply wanted to clarify perhaps with my colleague who initiated the process whether we also want to hear, based on the testimony of one of the witnesses, information as it pertains to the biomedical industry. I don't want to say the sky's the limit, but it seems to me that if we're dealing with IT, it's not necessarily limited to those who obviously don't have the tools to be in the area.
So I would encourage us maybe to get the pharmaceutical industry, IBAC or whomever.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Mr. Chairman, I would like to bring the members who were not here back to the original intent.
There is a documented shortage of skilled Canadians in certain areas. That's documented. These people have confirmed that. It's in IT, information technology, and it's software, mostly. That's the focus of these recommendations.
I personally have not looked into biotech or the aerospace industry. The shortages there may be documented as well, but I don't know, so I can't speak to that.
The intent was to do this rather rapidly and focus on one thing. If we wish to expand on that, then I'm at the will of the committee. That's why there was an initial proposal of a subcommittee to look at one.
Now that we're going to expand it, it's in your court, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: I would like to have a decision made regarding our second meeting. Are you all in favour of bringing in those three representatives?
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: Could you look at this side from time to time? You said I would be the speaker after him.
The Chairman: Mr. Nunez, you were so quiet there. Go ahead.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: I would like to suggest a name from Quebec. We have nobody from Quebec. Mr. Hugues Langlais is a lawyer and an expert on immigration. I would like his name to be added to the list. He already came here for other items.
[Translation]
Mr. Dan McTeague: Is this a senior official or someone who works in the private sector?
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: This is a lawyer.
Mr. Dan McTeague: A lawyer. Very well.
Mr. Osvaldo Nunez: He is an expert in immigration.
[English]
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Nunez. I apologize for missing you.
All right, then, we have our agenda for the second meeting already determined.
Could I have a show of hands?
Some hon. members: Agreed
The Chairman: Now we have three listed there for our third meeting. Is there any question or concern about the three listed for the third meeting?
Could I have a show of hands that the agenda of the third meeting is already now set?
Mr. Dan McTeague: I'm sorry, Chairman, before we do that, since I see the National Research Council is there, would that not be the appropriate place to insert someone from the biomedical industry, unless you want to leave this right to the end and do your fifth meeting on it?
Mr. Roy Cullen: I'm not a permanent member of the committee, but as I understand it, you're looking initially at high tech and information technology.
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When I mentioned Litton Systems in the context of aerospace, it's because they have some shortage problems with information technology professionals in the aerospace industry. That's why I wanted to incorporate them. I'll give you the name of a company. My intent was not to expand the mandate of the committee.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Good.
The Chairman: You see, when it comes to the fourth meeting, we're going to have to make a decision there as to which ones we're going to invite. We can't invite every single one of them unless we split that and have a fifth meeting and a sixth meeting.
Mr. Dan McTeague: Mr. Chairman, in the context of the comment made by Mr. Bélanger that the aerospace request of Mr. Cullen would be best in the fourth session, it would be incumbent on us for practical purposes to consider perhaps the pharmaceutical-biomedical industry for the third meeting.
The Chairman: Is there any problem with that? Is everyone in favour?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Dan McTeague: You may want to contact the HRDC people, such as Mr. Donnelly, to ask him if there's an industry in particular he took the time to talk about - not just based on my questioning - who might be willing to speak on behalf....
You may want to go to the IBAC, the Industrial Biotechnology Association of Canada. I presume they are the ones who made the request.
The Chairman: They have representatives here in Ottawa.
Thank you very much. We have the agenda set for the second and third meeting. Then there's the fourth meeting.
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Mr. Chairman, on that one, the idea was a board format, which I've experienced at another committee and seems to work. You bring in a variety and they each have ten minutes to speak, and then we ask questions.
I think Litton Systems could fit right in there instead of one of the local firms. In regard to Corel, Newbridge and Nortel, well, Nortel is national, really; they're mostly Toronto or Mississauga now. Newbridge and Corel: we could get one of those two, or even add Litton Systems.
Mr. Roy Cullen: That would be helpful.
The Chairman: What is your recommendation?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: It is to add Litton Systems to the first half of the fourth meeting.
The Chairman: Okay. That means you would have six at the forum.
Mr. Roy Cullen: Table ronde.
Has the date been set for the fourth meeting?
The Chairman: Yes. It would be April 10.
Mr. Roy Cullen: Thank you.
The Chairman: Is there any further discussion regarding the agendas?
Thank you very much. I have nothing else on the agenda, unless somebody has some new business to present.
The meeting is adjourned.