MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 1996
(Meeting No. 22)
(Meeting No. 22)
[Text]
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:34 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, for the purpose of electing a Chairman, pursuant to Standing Order 106(1).
Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Judy Bethel, Rex Crawford, Pierre de Savoye, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Leonard Hopkins, Charles Hubbard, Denis Paradis, Yves Rocheleau, Jim Silye and John Williams.
Acting Member present: Raymond Lavigne for Judy Bethel.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
The Clerk of the Committee presided over the election of a Chairman.
Yves Rocheleau moved,--That Michel Guimond do take the Chair of this Committee as Chairman.
And the question being put on the motion, it was agreed to, on the following division:
YEAS
Sue Barnes
Len Hopkins
Rex Crawford
Charles Hubbard
Pierre de Savoye
Raymond Lavigne
Ivan Grose
Denis Paradis
Michel Guimond
Yves Rocheleau--(10)
NAYS
Jim Silye
John Williams--(2)
Michel Guimond took the Chair.
On motion of Rex Crawford, it was agreed,--That Len Hopkins be elected Vice-Chair of the Committee.
Jim Silye moved,--That Sue Barnes be elected Vice-Chair of the Committee.
By unanimous consent, the motion was withdrawn.
Ivan Grose moved,--That Denis Paradis be elected Vice-Chair of the Committee.
After debate, the question being put on the motion it was, by a show of hands, agreed to: YEAS: 10; NAYS: 1.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(d) and the motion adopted by the Committee on June 20, 1996, the Chair presented a proposed schedule of meetings and briefings dated September 24, 1996.
John Williams moved,--That the proposed schedule be adopted.
And debate arising thereon;
Charles Hubbard moved,--That the motion be amended by replacing the word ``adopted'' with the following: ``referred to the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure''.
After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was, by a show of hands, agreed to: YEAS: 7; NAYS: 4.
And the question being put on the motion, as amended, it was, by a show of hands, agreed to: YEAS: 8; NAYS: 3.
Pierre de Savoye proposed to move,--That the Standing Committee on Public Accounts study Chapter 1 of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General, as defined below: A) Mandate: To shed light on the entire family trusts scandal, in particular on possible political or outside interference, possible privileged treatment of certain taxpayers and the use of tax loopholes by other taxpayers;
B) Means: The calling to testify of all government officials involved in the December 23, 1991 decision or in any other decisions either directly or indirectly related to Chapter 1 of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General, including deputy ministers or other senior officials;
--The possible calling to testify of politicians in office when the decisions were taken; The possible calling to testify of politicians presently in office who must answer to the scandal raised by the Auditor General;
--To require the tabling of the memo sent to the Deputy Minister of Revenue on December 23, 1991 recommending that the request be refused, in ensuring the confidentiality of the taxpayers concerned;
--To require the tabling of the agreement and of the waiver given by the taxpayer to Revenue Canada, in ensuring the confidentiality of the taxpayers concerned;
--To permit the examination of all cases of the use of this tax loophole by other taxpayers since 1991, without identifying them;
--The calling to testify, behind closed doors if necessary, of firms having carried out the transactions for the taxpayers in question;
--The possibility of using the May 23, 1996 legal opinion presented by Ms. Diane Davidson to the Public Accounts Committee on the scope of powers held by the Committee; and
--Any other legal means of procedure or inquiry could also be used to shed light on the entire scandal of December 23, 1991.
And a point of order being raised by Denis Paradis regarding the procedural admissibility of the proposed motion;
The Chair ruled that the motion was in order as it was consistent with the previous decisions taken by the Committee.
And debate arising on the motion of Pierre de Savoye;
Judy Bethel moved,--That the motion be referred to the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure.
After debate, the question being put on the motion of Judy Bethel, it was, by a show of hands, agreed to: YEAS: 8; NAYS: 2.
John Williams proposed to move,--That the Committee hold a briefing with the Research Officer of the Committee on Wednesday, September 25 at 3:30 p.m. regarding matters in relation to Family Trusts and a briefing with the Auditor General on Thursday, September 26, 1996 at 11:00 a.m. in relation to his September 1996 Report to be tabled in the House later that day.
The Chair ruled that the proposed motion was out of order on the grounds that it was inconsistent with the earlier decision of the Committee to refer to the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure all matters related to the proposed schedule of meetings and briefings.
On motion of Denis Paradis, it was agreed,--That the Committee do now adjourn.
At 5:02 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1996
(Meeting No. 23)
(Meeting No. 23)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:40 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Judy Bethel, Pierre de Savoye, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Leonard Hopkins, Charles Hubbard, Denis Paradis, Jim Silye and John Williams.
Acting Member present: Roseanne Skoke for Rex Crawford.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: L. Denis Desautels, Auditor General; Maria Barrados, Assistant Auditor General; Shahid Minto, Assistant Auditor General.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of its business in relation to the Reports of the Auditor General.
The Chair presented the Sixth Report of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure which reads as follows:
The Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts met on Wednesday, September 25, 1996 and agreed to recommend the following:
1. That the Committee hold an in camera briefing with the Auditor General on Thursday, September 26, 1996 at 11:00 o'clock a.m. in relation to his September 1996 Report to be presented to the House of Commons later that day.
2. That the Committee hold a meeting with the Auditor General on Tuesday, October 1st, 1996 at 3:30 p.m. in relation to his September 1996 Report.
3. That the Committee hold one and only one more meeting with witnesses in relation to the matter of family trusts raised in Chapter 1 of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General; that the meeting be held on Wednesday, October 2, 1996 at 3:30 p.m. with the Auditor General, the Deputy Ministers of National Revenue and Finance; and that the discussion be limited to the environment surrounding the decision of December 23, 1991 and the changes brought to the administrative procedures since the decision was taken.
4. That the Committee hold an in camera meeting on Tuesday, October 8, 1996 at 3:30 p.m. to discuss the direction of a draft report to the House respecting Family Trusts.
5. That the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure meet after the Committee meeting of October 2, 1996.
6. That the Chair of the Committee write to the Deputy Minister of National Revenue to request that he provide to the Committee before the meeting of October 2, 1996 a copy of the revised memorandum sent to the Deputy Minister of National Revenue on December 23, 1991 which recommended that the request be refused, while ensuring the confidentiality of the taxpayers concerned.
7. That, further to recommendation No. 3 above, the motion of Pierre de Savoye which was referred to the Sub-Committee on Tuesday, September 24, 1996 is no longer relevant.
Jim Silye moved,--That the Sixth Report of the Sub-Committee of Agenda and Procedure be adopted.
After debate, the question being put on the motion it was, by a show of hands, agreed to: YEAS: 6; NAYS: 1.
The Committee proceeded to the consideration of the September 1996 Report of the Auditor General which was referred to the Committee on Thursday, September 26, 1996.
The Auditor General made a statement and, with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 5:32 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 2, 1996
(Meeting No. 24)
(Meeting No. 24)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 4:29 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Judy Bethel, Pierre de Savoye, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Leonard Hopkins, Charles Hubbard, Denis Paradis, Yves Rocheleau, Jim Silye and John Williams.
Acting Member present: Brent St. Denis for Rex Crawford.
Other Members present: Mark Assad and Yvan Loubier.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: L. Denis Desautels, Auditor General; Shahid Minto, Assistant Auditor General; Barry Elkin, Principal, Audit Operations. From National Revenue: Pierre Gravelle, Deputy Minister; Robert M. Beith, Assistant Deputy Minister, Appeals Branch. From the Department of Finance: David A. Dodge, Deputy Minister; Denis Lefebvre, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Legislation Branch.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee resumed consideration of Chapter 1 of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General of Canada (Other Audit Observations--Revenue Canada--Family Trusts) (See Minutes of Proceedings, dated Thursday, May 16, 1996, Issue No. 1).
On motion of John Williams, it was agreed,--That the witnesses present a sypnosis of the written statements which they submitted today and that the written statements be appended to this day's proceedings (See Appendices ACCT-1, 2 and 3).
Denis Desautels, Pierre Gravelle and David Dodge made opening statements.
Pierre de Savoye moved,--That a copy of the revised memorandum dated December 23, 1991 addressed to the Deputy Minister of National Revenue be submitted to the Committee in its original form with the names of the taxpayers deleted.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was, by a show of hands, negatived: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 7.
The witnesses answered questions.
At 7:15 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 8, 1996
(Meeting No. 25)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
(Meeting No. 25)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met in camera at 3:34 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Rex Crawford, Pierre de Savoye, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Leonard Hopkins, Charles Hubbard, Rey Pagtakhan, Yves Rocheleau, Jim Silye and John Williams.
Acting Members present: Brent St. Denis for Sue Barnes; Dianne Brushett for Denis Paradis.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of matters relating to the future business of the Committee.
The Chair presented the Seventh Report of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure which read as follows:
The Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts met on Thursday, October 3, 1996 and agreed to recommend the following:
1. That the Committee hold an in camera meeting on Tuesday, October 8, 1996 at 3:30 p.m. to discuss the following: (1) the Report of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure, (2) the direction of a Draft Report to the House respecting Family Trusts, and (3) rules for Committee business.
2. That, if required, the Committee meet in camera on Wednesday, October 9 at 3:30 p.m. to dispose of the items of business not concluded at the meeting of October 8, 1996.
3. That the Committee hold an in camera meeting on Tuesday, October 22, 1996 in relation to the Draft Report to the House respecting Family Trusts.
4. That, as previously agreed, the Committee schedule a second meeting in relation to Chapter 11 of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General (Tax Avoidance), and a briefing and a meeting in relation to Chapter 7 (National Defence) of the May Report; and that the Committee hold a briefing and a meeting on Chapter 14 (Quality of Services) of the September 1996 Auditor General Report.
5. That the Chair write a letter to Correctional Services to request an Action Plan regarding the proposals and recommendations contained in Chapter 10 (Correctional Services) of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General.
It was agreed,--That the Seventh Report of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure be concurred in.
The Committee proceeded to the consideration of an outline for a Draft Report to the House respecting matters relating to the Family Trusts raised in Chapter 1 of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General of Canada.
The Committee discussed the outline and other proposals.
It was agreed,--That the Committee hold a working lunch with Members of the Public Accounts Committee of Ireland on Thursday, October 31, 1996 at 12 (noon) and that the working lunch be charged to the budget of the Committee.
At 5:10 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 9, 1996
(Meeting No. 26)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
(Meeting No. 26)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met in camera at 3:37 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 536, Wellington Building, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Rex Crawford, Pierre de Savoye, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Leonard Hopkins, Charles Hubbard, Rey Pagtakhan, Denis Paradis, Yves Rocheleau and Jim Silye.
Acting Members present: Eleni Bakopanos for Sue Barnes; Alex Shepherd for Rex Crawford.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee resumed consideration of matters relating to Family Trusts raised in Chapter 1 of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General (See Minutes of Proceedings, dated Tuesday, October 8, 1996, Issue No. 2).
The Committee proceeded to the consideration of a motion regarding a Draft Report to the House and amendments proposed thereto.
The motion, as amended, was adopted.
It was agreed,--That the Chair of the Committee present a Report to the House based on the text of the motion as agreed to.
It was agreed,--That the Committee request a government response to the Report, pursuant to Standing Order 109.
It was agreed,--That the members who wish to append a dissenting opinion to the Report, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), may do so by submitting their dissenting opinion, in both official languages, to the Clerk of the Committee within 15 days of the adoption of this motion.
It was agreed,--That, subject to the availability of staff, the Committee hold an in camera briefing respecting Chapter 14 (Service Quality) of the September 1996 Report of the Auditor General on October 22 or 23, 1996.
At 5:33 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 23, 1996
(Meeting No. 27)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
(Meeting No. 27)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met in camera at 3:34 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Pierre de Savoye, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Leonard Hopkins, Charles Hubbard, Denis Paradis, Rey Pagtakhan and Jim Silye.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
Witnesses: From the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer, Research Branch. From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: David Rattray, Assistant Auditor General; Peter Kasurak, Principal, Audit Operations; Paul Morse, Director, Audit Operations.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of Chapter 7 of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General of Canada (Peacekeeping--National Defence).
The witnesses briefed the Committee and answered questions.
The Chair reported that the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure met on Tuesday, October 22, 1996 and agreed to recommend the following:
That the Committee hold an in camera briefing on Tuesday, November 19, 1996 and a meeting on Wednesday, November 20, 1996 in relation to Chapter 17 of the September 1996 Auditor General Report (Human Resources Development Canada--Canada Pension Plan: Disability).
It was agreed,--That the recommendation of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure be concurred in.
The witnesses answered questions.
At 5:00 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 29, 1996
(Meeting No. 28)
(Meeting No. 28)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met in a televised session, at 4:06 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 253-D, Centre Block, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Rex Crawford, Pierre de Savoye, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Charles Hubbard, Denis Paradis, Yves Rocheleau and Jim Silye.
Acting Member present: John Richardson for Leonard Hopkins.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: David Rattray, Assistant Auditor General; Peter Kasurak, Principal, Audit Operations. From the Department of National Defence: Louise Fréchette, Deputy Minister; Vice-Admiral L.E. Murray, Acting Chief of Defence Staff; Lieutenant-General Armand Roy, Deputy Chief of Defence Staff; Pierre Lagueux, Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of Chapter 7 of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General of Canada (Peacekeeping--National Defence).
The witnesses made opening statements and answered questions.
At 5:46 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1996
(Meeting No. 29)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
(Meeting No. 29)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met in camera at 3:37 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 701, La Promenade, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Rex Crawford, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Charles Hubbard, Denis Paradis, Yves Rocheleau and Jim Silye.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
Witnesses: From the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer, Research Branch. From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: Maria Barrados, Assistant Auditor General; Robert Chen, Acting Principal, Audit Operations.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of Chapter 14 of the September 1996 Report of the Auditor General of Canada (Service Quality).
The witnesses briefed the Committee and answered questions.
At 4:27 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 5, 1996
(Meeting No. 30)
(Meeting No. 30)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:37 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Leonard Hopkins, Charles Hubbard, Denis Paradis, Rey Pagtakhan and Jim Silye.
Acting Member present: Benoît Tremblay for Yves Rocheleau.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: Maria Barrados, Assistant Auditor General. From the Treasury Board Secretariat: Peter Harder, Secretary of the Treasury Board and Comptroller General of Canada. From Human Resources Development Canada: Hy Braiter, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery; David Good, Assistant Deputy Minister, Financial and Administrative Services.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of its study of Chapter 14 of the September 1996 Report of the Auditor General of Canada (Service Quality).
Maria Barrados, Peter Harder and Hy Braiter made opening statements and, with the other witness, answered questions.
At 5:36 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 6, 1996
(Meeting No. 31)
(Meeting No. 31)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:43 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Pierre de Savoye, Michel Guimond, Leonard Hopkins, Charles Hubbard, Denis Paradis and Jim Silye.
Acting Members present: Réginald Bélair for Rex Crawford; John Finlay for Ivan Grose.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: Shahid Minto, Assistant Auditor General; Barry Elkin, Principal, Audit Operations. From Revenue Canada: Barry Lacombe, Assistant Deputy Minister, Verification, Enforcement and Compliance Research Branch; Robert Beith, Assistant Deputy Minister, Appeals Branch.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee resumed consideration of Chapter 11 of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General (Revenue Canada--Combatting Income Tax Avoidance) (See Minutes of Proceedings dated June 12, 1996, Issue No. 1).
Shahid Minto and Barry Lacombe made opening statements and, with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 5:07 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 1996
(Meeting No. 32)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
(Meeting No. 32)
The Evidence for this meeting is not available because it was held in camera.
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met in camera at 3:35 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Acting Chair, Rex Crawford, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Rex Crawford, Pierre de Savoye, Ivan Grose, Charles Hubbard, Rey Pagtakhan, Yves Rocheleau and Jim Silye.
Acting Member present: Sheila Finestone for Denis Paradis.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Research Officer.
Witnesses: From the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer, Research Branch. From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: Louis Lalonde, Principal, Audit Operations; Louise Dubé, Director, Audit Operations.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of Chapter 17 of the September 1996 Report of the Auditor General of Canada (Human Resources Development Canada--Canada Pension Plan: Disability).
Michelle Salvail briefed the Committee and, with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 4:49 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 1996
(Meeting No. 33)
(Meeting No. 33)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met, in a televised session, at 3:40 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 253-D, Centre Block, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Rex Crawford, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Charles Hubbard and Yves Rocheleau.
Acting Member present: Monte Solberg for Jim Silye.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: L. Denis Desautels, Auditor General; Raymond Dubois, Deputy Auditor General; David Rattray, Assistant Auditor General.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of the 1996 November Annual Report of the Auditor General referred to the Committee on Tuesday, November 26, 1996.
L. Denis Desautels made an opening statement and, with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 5:19 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 3, 1996
(Meeting No. 34)
(Meeting No. 34)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:39 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Rex Crawford, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Leonard Hopkins, Charles Hubbard, Rey Pagtakhan and John Williams.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal and Michelle Salvail, Research Officers.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of matters related to the future business of the Committee.
The Chair presented the Eighth Report of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure which read as follows:
The Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts met on Thursday, November 28, 1996 and agreed to the following:
1. That the Committee hold meetings during the weeks of December 2 and 9, 1996, as follows:
Tuesday, December 3, at 3:30 p.m., on the Report of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure regarding the future business of the Committee;
Wednesday, December 4, at 3:30 p.m., on the Public Accounts of Canada 1996;
Tuesday, December 10, at 3:30 p.m., on Chapter 33 of the November 1996 Report of the Auditor General (Indian and Northern Affairs Canada--Funding Arrangements for First Nations); and
Thursday, December 12, at 11:00 a.m., on Chapter 17 of the September 1996 Report of the Auditor General (Human Resources Development Canada--Canada Pension Plan: Disability). The meeting will be postponed to February 1997 if the House adjourns for the winter recess prior to December 12.
2. That the Committee hold meetings on the following chapters of the November 1996 Report of the Auditor General during February and March 1997:
Chapter 23 (Material Management in the Federal Government);
Chapter 26 (Canada Infrastructure Works Program--Lessons Learned) agreed to, on division;
Chapter 34 (National Defence--Support Productivity);
Chapter 24 (Systems under Development--Getting Results);
Chapter 37 (Revenue Canada--Enforcing the Income Tax Act for Large Corporations); and
Chapter 30 (Correctional Service Canada--Reintegration of Offenders).
3. That the Committee consider draft reports to the House on the following matters in February 1997: Chapter 11 of the May 1996 Report of the Auditor General (Revenue Canada--Combatting Income Tax Avoidance) and Chapter 14 of the September 1996 Report (Service Quality). Any report regarding Chapter 7 of the May 1996 Report (Peacekeeping) should be included in a report to the House on Chapter 34 of the November 1996 Report to be examined later.
4. That, further to the invitation received from the Standing Committee on Public Accounts of the Parliament of Ireland, the Chair of the Committee be authorized to seek the authority from the House and the necessary funds to permit the Members of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure and two staff persons of the Committee to travel, during a week in March or April, 1997, to Ireland to meet with Members and staff of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and other committees that review and exercize control over public expenditures at the Parliament of Ireland. The members would also meet with officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General of Ireland as well as officials of the Treasury of Ireland.
Recommendations Nos. 1, 2 and 3 were discussed and agreed to.
Recommendation No. 4 was discussed and it was agreed,--That Recommendation No. 4 be amended as follows:
(1) delete the words ``the Members of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure and two staff persons'' and substitute the following therefor: ``Members and staff''; and
(2) Add the following at the end of the recommendation: ``That the Clerk of the Committee look at all possibilities to obtain the lowest airfare possible and that the number of members and staff be determined later''.
The Report, as amended, was agreed to.
At 4:03 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 4, 1996
(Meeting No. 35)
(Meeting No. 35)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:35 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Pierre de Savoye, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Leonard Hopkins, Charles Hubbard, Rey Pagtakhan, Yves Rocheleau and Jim Silye.
Acting Member present: Geoff Regan for Sue Barnes.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
Witnesses: From the Secretariat of the Treasury Board of Canada: Rick Neville, Assistant Secretary and Assistant Comptroller General, Financial and Contract Management Sector; John Denis, Director, Government Accounting Policy Directorate. From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: Raymond Dubois, Deputy Auditor General; Ron Thompson, Assistant Auditor General.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of the Public Accounts of Canada 1996 referred to the Committee on Tuesday, October 22, 1996.
Rick Neville, Raymond Dubois and Ron Thompson made opening statements.
At 4:06 o'clock p.m., the sitting was suspended.
At 5:04 o'clock p.m., the sitting resumed.
The witnesses answered questions.
At 6:00 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 10, 1996
(Meeting No. 36)
(Meeting No. 36)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 3:38 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 209, West Block, the Vice-Chair, Denis Paradis, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Rex Crawford, Ivan Grose, Charles Hubbard, Denis Paradis, Yves Rocheleau and Jim Silye.
Acting Member present: John Duncan for John Williams.
Other Members present: Garry Breitkreuz and Ovid Jackson.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: L. Denis Desautels, Auditor General; Grant Wilson, Principal, Audit Operations. From the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada: Scott Serson, Deputy Minister; Brent DiBartolo, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services; Bill Austin, Director General, Finance Branch.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of Chapter 33 of the November 1996 Report of the Auditor General of Canada (Indian and Northern Affairs Canada--Funding Arrangements for First Nations).
L. Denis Desautels and Scott Serson made opening statements and, with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 5:26 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 12, 1996
(Meeting No. 37)
(Meeting No. 37)
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met at 11:19 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 308, West Block, the Chair, Michel Guimond, presiding.
Members of the Committee present: Pierre de Savoye, Ivan Grose, Michel Guimond, Charles Hubbard, Denis Paradis and Jim Silye.
Acting Members present: Beryl Gaffney for Rey Pagtakhan; John Loney for Ivan Grose.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Michelle Salvail, Research Officer.
Witnesses: From the Office of the Auditor General of Canada: L. Denis Desautels, Auditor General; Louis Lalonde, Principal, Audit Operations. From Human Resources Development Canada: Mel Cappe, Deputy Minister; Serge Rainville, Assistant Deputy Minister, Income Security Programs; Cathy Drummond, Director General, Programs, Income Security Programs; Barbara Naegele, Senior Manager, Special Projects Office, Disability, Income Security Programs.
In accordance with its mandate under Standing Order 108(3)(d), the Committee proceeded to the consideration of Chapter 17 of the September 1996 Report of the Auditor General of Canada (Human Resources Development Canada--Canada Pension Plan: Disability).
L. Denis Desautels and Mel Cappe made opening statements and, with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 1:07 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
Bernard G. Fournier
Clerk of the Committee