Issue 114

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 18, 1995
(Meeting No. 177)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 3:37 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 371, West Block, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Morris Bodnar, Roger Gallaway, Art Hanger, Gar Knutson, Russell MacLellan, Beth Phinney, Jack Ramsay, Geoff Regan, Paddy Torsney and Pierrette Venne.

Associate Member present: Myron Thompson.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Philip Rosen, Senior Analyst.

Appearing: The Honourable Herb Gray, Solicitor General of Canada.

Witnesses: From the Ministry of the Solicitor General: Jean T. Fournier, Deputy Solicitor General. From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police: Inspector Bob Lesser, Officer in Charge, Directorate Services, (Federal Services Directorate). From the Department of Justice: Warren Black, Senior General Counsel.

The Order of Reference of Thursday, October 5, 1995 being read as follows:

ORDERED,--That Bill C-78, An Act to provide for the establishment and operation of a program to enable certain persons to receive protection in relation to certain inquiries, investigations or prosecutions, be now read a second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs

Clause 1 was allowed to stand.

The Chair called Clause 2.

The Minister made an opening statement, and with the witnesses, answered questions.

At 4:45 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 24, 1995
(Meeting No. 178)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 9:34 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 308, West Block, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Morris Bodnar, Gar Knutson, Russell MacLellan, Beth Phinney, Jack Ramsay, Geoff Regan, Paddy Torsney and Pierrette Venne.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Philip Rosen, Senior Analyst.

Witnesses: Tom Wappel, M.P., (Sponsor of Bill C-206), and "John Doe".

The Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-78, An Act to provide for the establishment and operation of a program to enable certain persons to receive protection in relation to certain inquiries, investigations or prosecutions (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Wednesday, October 18, 1995, Issue No. 114, Meeting No. 177).

On Clause 2

Tom Wappel, M.P. and ``John Doe'' each made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 10:45 o'clock a.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 24, 1995
(Meeting No. 179)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 10:48 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 308, West Block, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Morris Bodnar, Gar Knutson, Russell MacLellan, Beth Phinney, Jack Ramsay, Geoff Regan, Paddy Torsney and Pierrette Venne.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Philip Rosen, Senior Analyst.

Witness: From Hamilton--Wentworth Regional Police: Det. Gary Bishop.

On Clause 2

Det. Gary Bishop made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 11:35 o'clock a.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 24, 1995
(Meeting No. 180)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 3:30 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 308, West Block, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Morris Bodnar, Roger Gallaway, Art Hanger, Gar Knutson, Russell MacLellan, Jack Ramsay, Geoff Regan, Paddy Torsney and Pierrette Venne.

Acting Member present: John Maloney for Sue Barnes.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Philip Rosen.

Witnesses: From the Canadian Police Association: Scott Newark, Executive Director; Neal Jessop, President.

On Clause 2

Scott Newark and Neal Jessop each made an opening statement and answered questions.

The Chair presented the Seventeenth Report of the Sub-Committee on Agenda and Procedure following the meeting of Thursday, October 19, 1995.

It was agreed,--That the following recommendations be adopted:

On Bill C-78

To invite a constitutional expert in order to address specific issues concerning the Charter of Rights.

To proceed to clause-by-clause consideration on Thursday, October 26, 1995.

On Bill C-232

To invite, through videoteleconference, at the same meeting, Gerard Culhane from Vancouver and Barbara Baird from Fredericton.

To invite Chuck Merovitz from Ottawa.

To proceed, after these three (3) witnesses, to clause-by-clause consideration.

On Bill C-106

To invite the Canadian Bar Association and the Barreau du Québec.

To proceed to clause-by-clause consideration.

On Y.O.A. (Phase 11)

To set aside the two last weeks of November 1995.

To hold public hearings in Ottawa during the week of November 20, 1995.

To invite the Minister of Justice (a televised meeting) and national groups.

To travel to the Maritimes during the week of November 27, 1995.

That the Clerk, with Patricia Begin, submit a draft plan to be considered by the Steering Committee.

To travel, after Christmas recess, to the Province of Quebec, the Province of Ontario and to the Western Provinces and to the Territories.

Information: the Clerk submitted a draft budget.

On Bill C-240

To begin public hearings in December 1995.

To invite, at the beginning, two (2) constitutional experts in order to discuss charter issues.

To invite two (2) correctional law experts.

On motion of Paddy Torsney, it was agreed,--That on the Young Offenders Act Study (Phase II), the Minister be invited to appear on Monday, November 20, 1995, at 10:30 a.m.

Paddy Torsney moved,--That on Bill C-106, the Administration of Justice and the Council of Canadian Law Deans be invited.

After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was, by a show of hands, agreed to: Yeas: 7; Nays: 1.

At 5:00 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 25, 1995
(Meeting No. 181)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 3:34 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 308, West Block, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Morris Bodnar, Roger Gallaway, Gar Knutson, Russell MacLellan, Beth Phinney, Jack Ramsay, Geoff Regan and Paddy Torsney.

Acting Member present: Shaughnessy Cohen for Roger Gallaway.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Philip Rosen, Senior Analyst.

Witness: Barry B. Swadron, Barrister & Solicitor, Swadron Associates.

On Clause 2

Barry B. Swadron made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 4:45 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 26, 1995
(Meeting No. 182)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 9:37 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 701, La Promenade, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Morris Bodnar, Gar Knutson, Russell MacLellan, Beth Phinney, Jack Ramsay and Paddy Torsney.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Philip Rosen, Senior Analyst.

Witnesses: From the Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime: Steve Sullivan, Executive Director. From Victims of Violence: Sharon Rosenfeldt, President. Prof. Ed Ratushny, Faculty of Common Law, University of Ottawa and Peter Shoniker, Barrister and Solicitor, Toronto, Ontario.

On Clause 2

Steve Sullivan, from the Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime, made an opening statement and, with Sharon Rosenfeldt, from Victims of Violence, answered questions.

At 10:25 o'clock a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 10:40 o'clock a.m., the sitting resumed.

Prof. Ed Ratushny and Peter Shoniker each made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 11:38 o'clock a.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Richard Dupuis

Clerk of the Committee

Miriam Burke

Co-Clerk of the Committee

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 2, 1995
(Meeting No. 183)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 9:35 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 701, La Promenade, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Morris Bodnar, François Langlois, Beth Phinney, Jack Ramsay, Geoff Regan and Paddy Torsney.

Acting Member present: Shaughnessy Cohen for Russell MacLellan.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Patricia Begin and Kristen Douglas, Research Officers.

Witness: By teleconference: FROM FREDERICTON, NEW BRUNSWICK: Barbara Baird, Barrister and Solicitor.

The Committee resumed consideration of its Order of Reference dated Thursday, May 4, 1995 relating to Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Divorce Act (granting of access to, or custody of, a child to a grandparent) (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Tuesday, September 19, 1995, Issue No. 113, Meeting No. 165).

On Clause 1

Barbara Baird made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 10:30 o'clock a.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 2, 1995
(Meeting No. 184)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 10:57 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 701, La Promenade, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Morris Bodnar, Gar Knutson, Beth Phinney, Jack Ramsay, Geoff Regan and Paddy Torsney.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Patricia Begin and Kristen Douglas, Research Officers.

Witness: by teleconference FROM VANCOUVER, B.C.: Sheila Keet, Barrister & Solicitor.

On Clause 1

Sheila Keet made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 12:00 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Miriam Burke

Co-Clerk of the Committee

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 1995
(Meeting No. 185)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 9:35 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 308, West Block, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Morris Bodnar, Roger Gallaway, Art Hanger, Gar Knutson, François Langlois, Beth Phinney, Jack Ramsay, Geoff Regan and Paddy Torsney.

Acting Member present: Patrick Gagnon for Russell MacLellan.

Other Member present: Jag Bhaduria.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Philip Rosen, Senior Analyst.

Witnesses: From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police: Asst. Commissioner J.T.G. Ryan, Director, Federal Services; Inspector R.G. Lesser, Officer in Charge, Federal Directorate Services.

On Clause 2

Asst. Commissioner J.T.G. Ryan made an opening statement and together with Inspector R.G. Lesser, answered questions.

The Chair presented the Eighteenth Report of the Sub-committee on Agenda and Procedure following the meeting of Wednesday, November 1st, 1995.

On motion of Paddy Torsney, it was agreed,--That the following recommendations be adopted:

Bill C-78

To invite, during the week of November 6, senior officials from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police directly involved in the administration of the actual witness protection program.

To proceed during the same week to the clause by clause consideration.

Bill C-232

To proceed during the week of November 6 to the clause by clause consideration.

Bill C-106

To invite representatives from the Office of the Auditor General on the audit made on the former Law Reform Commission (1985 and 1988).

S.O. 110 and 111 (Order-in-Council Appointments)

To invite, during the week of November 6, the following appointments to the National Parole Board:

Catherine M. Knox
Robert R. Heinrichs
and Shirley A. Lewis.

Y.O.A. (Phase II)

Information

A proposed budget for the Maritimes trip was discussed.

The Clerk has been asked to provide justification for the staff to accompany the Committee.

At 10:55 o'clock a.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Richard Dupuis

Clerk of the Committee

Miriam Burke

Co-Clerk of the Committee

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 1995
(Meeting No. 186)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 3:30 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 308, West Block, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Morris Bodnar, Gar Knutson, Beth Phinney, Jack Ramsay, Geoff Regan, Paddy Torsney and Pierrette Venne.

Acting Members present: Daphne Jennings for Diane Ablonczy and Andy Scott for Russell MacLellan.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Patricia Begin and Kristen Douglas, Research Officers.

Witness: Charles L. Merovitz, Barrister & Solicitor.

On Clause 1

The witness made an opening statement and answered questions.

At 4:56 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Miriam Burke

Co-Clerk of the Committee

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 8, 1995
(Meeting No. 187)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 3:35 o'clock p.m. this day, in Room 308, West Block, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Sue Barnes, Morris Bodnar, Roger Gallaway, Art Hanger, Gar Knutson, François Langlois, Beth Phinney, Jack Ramsay, Geoff Regan, Paddy Torsney and Pierrette Venne.

Acting Member present: Patrick Gagnon for Russell MacLellan.

Other Members present: Jag Bhaduria and Tom Wappel.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Philip Rosen, Senior Analyst.

From the Legislative Counsel Office: Philippe Ducharme, Legislative Counsel; Paulette Nadeau and Charles Bellemare, Legislative Clerks.

Appearing: Patrick Gagnon, Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada.

Witnesses: From the Ministry of the Solicitor General: Warren Black, Senior General Counsel; Bob Lesser, Officer in charge, Directorate Services, Federal Services Directorate; Helen Banulescu, Chief, Policing and Law Enforcement Group.

The Committee resumed consideration of its Order of Reference dated Thursday, October 5, 1995 relating to Bill C-78, An Act to provide for the establishment and operation of a program to enable certain persons to receive protection in relation to certain inquiries, investigations or prosecutions (See Minutes of Proceedings dated Wednesday, October 18, 1995, Issue No. 114, Meeting No. 177).

The Committee proceeded to clause-by-clause consideration.

On Clause 2

Pierrette Venne moved,--That Clause 2, be amended by deleting lines 7 and 8, on page 1.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: Yeas: 2, Nays: 6.

Geoff Regan moved,--That Clause 2 be amended by striking out line 4 on page 2 and substituting the following:

``referred to in paragraph 6(1)(c) that applies in''

The amendment was allowed to stand.

Clause 2 was allowed to stand.

By unanimous consent, the Committee proceeded to Clause 6.

Geoff Regan moved,--That Clause 6 be amended

(a) by striking out line 1 on page 3 and substituting the following:

``6. (1) A witness shall not be admitted to the''

(b) by adding, immediately after line 17 on page 3, the following:

``(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), the Commissioner may, in a case of emergency, and for not more than ninety days, provide protection to a person who has not entered into a protection agreement.''

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

Clause 6 was allowed to stand.

The Committee reverted to Clause 2.

The Committee reverted to the amendment moved by Geoff Regan as follows:

That Clause 2 be amended by striking out line 4 on page 2 and substituting the following:

``referred to in paragraph 6(1) (c) that applies in''

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

The question being put on Clause 2 as amended, it was agreed to.

Clause 3 carried.

Clause 4 carried.

Clause 5 carried on division.

On new Clause 5.1

Pierrette Venne moved,--That Bill C-78 be amended by adding after line 42, on page 2, the following new Clause:

``Exception

5.1 A witness shall not be admitted to the Program where the witness is charged on an indictment with another accused or defendant, whether or not the witness and the other accused or defendant are tried jointly or separately on the same or different counts.''

After debate, the question being put on the new Clause 5.1, it was negatived by a show of hands: Yeas: 2; Nays: 7.

On Clause 6

Gar Knutson moved,--That Clause 6 be amended by striking out lines 15 to 17 on page 3 and substituting the following:

``missioner setting out the obligations of both parties.''

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

The question being put on Clause 6, as amended, it was agreed to on division.

Clause 7 carried on division.

On Clause 8

Paddy Torsney moved,--That Clause 8 be amended

(a) by striking out line 15 on page 4 and substituting the following:

``(iii) to meet all legal obligations incurred by the protectee, including any obligation regarding the custody and maintenance of children,

(iv) to refrain from activities that consti-''

(b) by striking out line 20 on page 4 and substituting the following:

``(v) to accept and give effect to reasona-''

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

Pierrette Venne moved,--That Clause 8 be amended by replacing lines 19 to 24, on page 4, with the following:

``tectee or the Program

(iv) to accept and give effect to reasonable requests and directions made by the Commissioner in relation to the protection provided to the protectee and the obligations of the protectee, and

(v) to refrain from committing an indictable office.''

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived: Yeas: 2; Nays: 7.

The question being put on Clause 8, as amended, it was carried on division.

Clause 9 carried on division.

Clause 10 carried on division.

On Clause 11

Beth Phinney moved,--That Clause 11 be amended by striking out line 9 on page 5 and substituting the following:

``shall knowingly disclose, directly or indirectly, informa-''

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to on division.

Geoff Regan moved,--That Clause 11 of Bill C-78 be amended by striking out lines 12 to 15 on page 5 and substituting the following:

Application

``(2) Subsection (1) does not apply

(a) to a protectee or former protectee who discloses information about the protectee or former protectee if the disclosure does not endanger the safety of another protectee or former protectee and does not compromise the integrity of the Program; or

(b) to a person who discloses information that was disclosed to the person by a protectee or former protectee if the disclosure does not endanger the safety of the protectee or former protectee and does not compromise the integrity of the Program.''

The question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to.

The question being put on Clause 11 as amended, it was agreed to, on division.

Clause 12 carried.

Clause 13 carried.

Clause 14 carried on division.

Clause 15 carried.

Clause 16 carried on division.

Clause 17 carried on division.

Clause 18 carried on division.

On Clause 19

The question being put on Clause 19, it was by a show of hands, negatived: Yeas: 1; Nays: 8.

Clause 20 carried on division.

Clause 21 carried.

Clause 22 carried on division.

Clause 23 carried on division.

Clause 24 carried on division.

Clause 1 carried on division.

The title carried.

The Bill, as amended, carried on division.

Ordered,--That the Bill, as amended, be reprinted as a working copy for the use of the House of Commons at the Report stage.

It was agreed,--That the Chair report the Bill, with amendments, to the House as the ELEVENTH Report of the Committee.

At 4:40 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Richard Dupuis

Clerk of the Committee

Miriam Burke

Co-Clerk of the Committee

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 1995
(Meeting No. 188)

[Text]

The Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs met at 9:35 o'clock a.m. this day, in Room 701, La Promenade, the Chair, Morris Bodnar, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Morris Bodnar, Roger Gallaway, Gar Knutson, Jack Ramsay, Geoff Regan and Paddy Torsney.

Acting Members present: Patrick Gagnon for Russell MacLellan and Randy White for Art Hanger.

In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of Parliament: Philip Rosen, Senior Analyst and Patricia Begin, Research Officer.

Witnesses: From The National Parole Board: Catherine M. Knox, Appointed to the National Parole Board, Prairie Regional Division. BY TELECONFERENCE: FROM SWIFT CURRENT, SASK.: Robert R. Heinrichs, Appointed to the National Parole Board, Prairie Regional Division. BY TELECONFERENCE: FROM EDMONTON, ALBERTA: Shirley A. Lewis, Appointed to the National Parole Board, Prairie Regional Division.

In accordance with its mandate under Standing Orders 110 and 111, the Committee examined the Order in Council appointments of several members of the National Parole Board, Prairie Region,--Sessional Paper No. 8540-351-13K (deemed referred on September 27, 1995, pursuant to Standing Order 32(6)).

Catherine Knox answered questions.

At 10:06 o'clock a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 10:25 o'clock a.m., the sitting resumed.

Robert Henrichs answered questions.

At 11:15 o'clock a.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 11:30 o'clock a.m., the sitting resumed.

Shirley Lewis answered questions.

At 12:05 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Miriam Burke

Co-Clerk of the Committee