[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Tuesday, September 19, 1995
.1104 
[English]
The Clerk of the Committee: Hon. members, I see a quorum. Pursuant to Standing Orders 106.(1), 106.(2), and 116 -
Mr. Duncan (North Island - Powell River): I nominate Mr. Murphy as chairman of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs.
The Clerk: I must read this first. The first order of business is to elect the chair. I am ready to receive motions to that effect.
Mr. Finlay.
Mr. Finlay (Oxford): Mr. Clerk, I move that Ray Bonin be the chair of this committee.
Mr. Bertrand (Pontiac - Gatineau - Labelle): Point of order -
Mr. Duncan: A motion has already been given, Mr. Clerk.
The Clerk: I'm sorry, I can't entertain points of order. I'm here to receive motions for election of the chair. I hadn't finished reading the motion. Now somebody has been nominated.
Mr. Duncan: Yes, the meeting was open. You'd opened with the gavel. Will you entertain my motion to have Mr. Murphy stand as chair of the standing committee?
The Clerk: The first one I did recognize was Mr. Finlay. He put his hand up. I looked this way. If you had put your hand up after I read the motion I would have recognized you. But I recognized Mr. Finlay. We do have a motion on the floor that Mr. Bonin take the chair of the committee.
Mr. Duncan: Nominations are open. That is the motion, is it not? I would like to nominateMr. Murphy as chair of the standing committee.
.1105
The Clerk: I can entertain one motion at a time. We'll do Mr. Finlay's motion first, and then we'll proceed to yours, Mr. Duncan.
The first motion I have in front of us is that Mr. Bonin -
Mr. Harris (Prince George - Bulkley Valley): Mr. Chairman, with due respect, when the gavel falls, the meeting is open. Mr. Duncan moved a motion when the meeting was open; therefore his motion was on the floor first.
Mr. Bonin (Nickel Belt): On a point of order, it's true that when the gavel falls, the meeting is in order, but you wait for an item to be introduced to a meeting before you address that item. The item had not been introduced; therefore I suggest that you are proceeding properly.
Mr. Harris: The Standing Orders make the motion for the nomination of the chair the first order of business. We already know, pursuant to the standing order, what the first order of business is. Based on that, Mr. Chairman -
Mr. Bonin: I move that you call the question.
Mr. Harris: - Mr. Duncan made the motion -
The Clerk: I would like to tell hon. members that I cannot entertain points of order.
Mr. Harris: This is not a point of order, Mr. Chairman. This is pursuant to the standing order. The business of the meeting was already known to the members. Based on that, Mr. Duncan proposed a motion pursuant to the first order of business.
The Clerk: I would like to say that I proceeded with reading the motion, the purpose for which we're here, and then I put the question to the committee to receive the motion for election of a chair. That's how I proceeded. I did look up, and the first one I recognized was Mr. Finlay. I'll take notice of Mr. Duncan's motion. So we'll proceed with one motion first, and if that's not agreed to, then we'll proceed to Mr. Duncan's.
The first motion I have -
Mr. Duncan: I believe, Mr. Chair, that I had already given notice of my motion prior to that motion being introduced.
The Clerk: I did recognize Mr. Finlay.
Mr. Duncan: Well, you looked right instead of left.
The Clerk: I've got yours as notice now. We'll proceed to Mr. Finlay's motion -
Mr. Harris: Mr. Chairman, you acknowledged -
The Clerk: Mr. Bonin.
Mr. Harris: - Mr. Duncan as he spoke, therefore -
The Clerk: On a point of order, which I couldn't entertain at that time.
Mr. Harris: He did not make a point of order. He proposed a motion of a nomination to the position of chair. You recognized him and you spoke to him and you said you had to finish reading first. That, Mr. Chair, is not pursuant to the standing order. The standing order clearly stated the order of business. Mr. Duncan was following the order of business pursuant to the standing order. Once the gavel drops, the meeting is open and the first agenda of business of this meeting is then on the table.
Mr. Duncan, in respecting how the standing order works, made the motion. You recognized him by answering him and telling him that you had to finish reading it, which is not the case at all, because the business is already on the table and we've been aware of it.
The Clerk: The substance had to be in front of the committee and I hadn't finished reading what the motion was, which was, ``I am ready to receive a motion to the effect - ''. Then I looked up and saw Mr. Finlay, whom I recognized. I'll have to proceed in that way, that what we have in front of us has been moved by Mr. Finlay: that Mr. Bonin do take the chair of this committee.
Is it agreed?
Mr. Duncan: There are precedents for holding elections on more than one nomination. It has been done before. According to the Standing Orders, the committee is the master of its own fate in terms of procedures.
I find this to be most unusual. It's not as if we're trying to split parties. We're talking about two individuals from the government party. I just think it's democratic. It's more appropriate for us to have not a serial election but an election of all members who are nominated. I think it's quite appropriate, and there is a precedent for it from as recently as 1991.
The Clerk: All I'd like to say is that we entertain one motion at a time. The committee makes a decision on that, and then we proceed to the next motion.
Mr. Harris: Mr. Chairman, this is not a brand-new concept of having two names on the ballot. As early as this morning, the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans did in fact, at the will of the committee, which is supposed to act in a democratic fashion in discussing the business of the committee - The will of the committee was that more than one name would be placed on the ballot for the position of chairman and it would be conducted by secret ballot in order that the democratic process could in fact be preserved in the committee.
.1110
So this is not something new we're asking for now. All we're asking for is that the government members who are present here, the official opposition members who are present here, and the members of the Reform Party who are present be allowed to pursue the election of the committee chair in a democratic fashion, as promised - as promised by the Liberal government in their famous red book - that the standing committees would pursue a democratic process. This committee should not stand by, and certainly our party will not stand by, and let the election of the chair and the vice-chairs be simply at the direction of the whip of the Liberal Party.
Mr. Bonin: On a point of order, we will agree to have two names on the ballot.
Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North): The point is moot, Mr. Clerk, because if Mr. Bonin's name is allowed to stand and the required number exercise their right to vote - They can't vote for the chair twice. It's really a moot point, and I don't see the necessity to go through this.
Mr. Harris: We are requesting that the allowance be made at the will of this committee that two names be allowed to be presented for the position of chair and that it be done by secret ballot. That's a democratic process. People vote by secret ballot in the Canada election. That's democracy.
Mr. DeVillers: It's a moot point.
[Translation]
Mr. Bachand (Saint-Jean): The Bloc québécois will not object. If our friends want to present a name for the position of Chair, let them do so and they will be defeated. If they keep on this way, they will also be defeated for the position of Vice-Chair.
So, for the time being, I do not object to their presenting a name for the position of Chair. With this majority, Mr. Bonin must not fear anything.
[English]
Mr. Harris: All we seek is democracy, Mr. Clerk.
The Clerk: You want both names on the ballot?
Mr. Bonin: An open vote.
The Clerk: An open vote?
Mr. Harris: Secret ballot.
Ms Bridgman (Surrey North): Is it the will of the committee to pursue this by secret ballot?
Mr. Harris: Mr. Clerk, this is not something new we're trying to propose here. It was done this morning in the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. We're not trying to recreate anything here. We just would like to see democratic procedure followed. Certainly a secret ballot is not rocket science. We all know how to cast them. It is probably the most democratic process that could be done in this committee this morning.
If the government members refuse -
The Clerk: Mr. Bonin.
Mr. Bonin: The third party made comments about the will of this committee. This committee has agreed to accept the nomination of a second person. Personally, I don't agree that we should have a secret ballot. If the majority of this committee want a secret ballot, so be it, but I personally want a show of hands.
The Clerk: A show of hands. There it is.
The first question is Mr. Finlay's motion that Mr. Bonin be chair of the committee, so we will vote on that first. All in favour?
Mr. Harris: Can we receive assurance that the vote on the nomination of Mr. Murphy will be called? Do we have that assurance?
An hon. member: It's a show of hands.
The Clerk: If Mr. Bonin is elected we can't proceed to the next one, because we will already have a chair.
Mr. Harris: What we asked for, Mr. Clerk, was that both names be put on the ballot. The members of the Liberal Party agreed to that. We would just like to have a recorded vote.
Mr. Bonin: Call the vote.
Mr. DeVillers: By voting for Mr. Bonin, a person is in effect voting against Mr. Murphy. That's why I say it's moot. It's the same thing.
Mr. Harris: That is not the point. The point is we asked that two names be put on the ballot.
Mr. DeVillers: What is the point?
Mr. Harris: You fellows agreed, and we would like to see a recorded vote on the two people who are on the ballot.
Mr. Murphy (Annapolis Valley - Hants): I heard my name used in terms of being nominated.
Mr. Harris: That's correct. You're nominated.
Mr. Murphy: No. Thank you. I decline the nomination.
Mr. Duncan: That makes that part of the argument moot, Mr. Clerk, but I would like to talk about the next set of elections.
.1115
The Clerk: We have a motion now that Mr. Bonin do take the chair of this committee.
Mr. Harris: We're giving notice of a motion.
Motion agreed to
The Clerk: It is agreed that Mr. Bonin is duly elected, and I invite him to take the chair.
The Chairman: I would appreciate it if you would allow the chair to express his appreciation for the election. Is that acceptable?
I would like to take a few moments to thank you for electing me chair of this committee. We all know, and we're feeling it more every second, that it will be a challenge. Being asked to sit on this committee is a great responsibility. People's lives are affected by the decisions we make.
My desire is that this committee should be a committee of consensus. It might be wishful thinking at the moment, but I believe that with time we will reach that goal, because each person around this table is conscious of the importance of our work, and I hope we will put our political aspirations and our personal views that affect us as individuals aside, to the benefit of the people we are here to serve.
We will now proceed to the election of a vice-chair on the government side. If your hand is up to address the issue of the election of a vice-chair, then I will recognize it.
[Translation]
Mr. Bertrand: I move that Mr. John Finlay be elected Vice-Chair.
The Chairman: The motion, seconded by Mr. Murphy, is carried.
[English]
Motion agreed to
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried and Mr. Finlay duly elected vice-chair for the government side.
I will now entertain nominations for the other vice-chair.
[Translation]
Mr. Caron (Jonquière): I move that Mr. Bachand be elected Vice-Chair of the Committee.
The Chairman: I accept the motion.
[English]
Those in favour?
Ms Bridgman: On a point of order -
Mr. Harris: Mr. Chair, I'd like to speak to the motion.
The Chairman: The vote has been called. There's no point of order when you call a vote. Those in favour?
Mr. Harris: I'd like to speak to the motion. Is this a democratic process or is it a kangaroo committee?
Motion agreed to
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried and Claude Bachand duly elected vice-chair of the committee.
[Translation]
Congratulations, Mr. Bachand, on your election as Vice-Chair of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.
[English]
Those elections being completed, I will entertain your points of order.
Mr. Harris: On a point of order, we repeatedly tried to make a motion regarding the voting for a vice-chair on the opposition side. This motion was ignored by you. I would like to say that in my opinion, in your very first minutes of being chairman of this committee, you have abused the position of chairman. We have seen in this committee once again what we have seen in all the other committees, where the committees have been at the complete direction of the government whip and the cabinet's wishes -
The Chairman: That's out of order. Stick to the meeting and to the procedures.
Mr. Harris: I would like to move a motion to overturn the election of the vice-chair.
The Chairman: You have, in your procedures at your disposal, the right and privilege to challenge the chair at any time. In doing so, you must get unanimous consent or at least a majority vote from your colleagues on this committee. If you fail to do that, then I suppose that we can proceed.
Mr. Harris: It's on the table, Mr. Chair.
The Chairman: Where's your motion?
Mr. Harris: I moved to overturn the -
The Chairman: You're too late; you had to do that before. When I accepted the nomination, that was the time to challenge the chair. You're too late.
Is there anything else on the agenda?
Mr. Harris: Mr. Chair, on a point of order -
The Chairman: Do I have a motion to adjourn?
Mr. Harris: The motion was not made too late.
The Chairman: Those in favour of adjourning? So be it.
The meeting stands adjourned.