PACC Committee Meeting
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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION
Standing Committee on Public Accounts
EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Thursday, November 7, 2002
| ¿ | 0905 |
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The Clerk of the Committee |
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Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. John Bryden |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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Mr. John Bryden |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Canadian Alliance) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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Mr. John Bryden |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance) |
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Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ) |
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The Clerk |
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Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Joe Peschisolido (Richmond, Lib.) |
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Mr. John Bryden |
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Ms. Beth Phinney (Hamilton Mountain, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Philip Mayfield |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
| ¿ | 0910 |
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Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, Canadian Alliance) |
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Mr. John Finlay |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. John Finlay |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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The Clerk |
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Ms. Beth Phinney |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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The Clerk |
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Ms. Beth Phinney |
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The Clerk |
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Ms. Beth Phinney |
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The Clerk |
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Ms. Beth Phinney |
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Mr. Jacques Saada |
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The Clerk |
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Ms. Beth Phinney |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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Mr. Paul Forseth |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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The Clerk |
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Ms. Beth Phinney |
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Mr. Paul Forseth |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. John Bryden |
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The Clerk |
| ¿ | 0915 |
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Ms. Beth Phinney |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair |
| ¿ | 0920 |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Odina Desrochers |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Val Meredith |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Paul Forseth |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Philip Mayfield |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. John Finlay |
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The Clerk |
| ¿ | 0925 |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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Mr. John Bryden |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Odina Desrochers |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Odina Desrochers |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Jacques Saada |
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The Clerk |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Odina Desrochers |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Jacques Saada |
| ¿ | 0930 |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Bryden |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Val Meredith |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Philip Mayfield |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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Mr. Philip Mayfield |
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Mr. Mac Harb |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. John Bryden |
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The Chair |
CANADA
Standing Committee on Public Accounts |
|
l |
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l |
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EVIDENCE
Thursday, November 7, 2002
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
¿ 
(0905)
[English]
The Clerk of the Committee: Honourable members of the committee, I see a quorum. We can now proceed to the election of the chair.
Mr. Harb.
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): I'd like to move that Mr. John Williams be the chair of the committee.
The Clerk: Mr. Bryden.
Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.): On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, or whatever you are there.
The Clerk: I am the clerk of the committee.
Mr. John Bryden: We haven't had any discussions here. I just arrived, but I wonder if we could have an open ballot. I don't see any reason to have a secret ballot in this committee. We're all a mature group and I deplore any thought that I'm going to cast my vote and not be seen by everyone who cares to look at me casting that vote.
Mr. Mac Harb: I think we might be able to do that now, because we're not in camera, right?
Mr. John Bryden: Yes. I think we need unanimous consent.
The Clerk: The new standing order says that when more than one candidate is nominated for the office of chair or vice-chair, the election shall be conducted by secret ballot. Therefore, if there is only one nomination, we'll proceed in the usual way, with a show of hands.
Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Canadian Alliance): Would it be appropriate, then, if all of us are in favour, that we ask for nomination of seats?
The Clerk: If there are no other nominations, the nominations will be closed. Are there any other nominations for the office of chair of this committee?
I still have to put the motion.
(Motion agreed to)
The Clerk: According to the new standing order, I will continue to preside over the election of the vice-chairs.
We have two vice-chairs on this committee, both from the government party. I'm ready to receive nominations for the first position.
Mr. Harb.
Mr. Mac Harb: I'd like to nominate Beth Phinney as vice-chair.
Mr. John Bryden: I'll second it.
The Clerk: Mr. Williams.
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): I'll nominate Mr. Bryden.
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ): Seconded.
The Clerk: Seconded by Mr. Desrochers.
An hon. member: Do you need seconders?
The Clerk: Not necessarily, but we normally take them.
Ms. Meredith.
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian Alliance): I'd like to nominate Shawn Murphy, please.
The Clerk: I didn't hear you, Madam.
Ms. Val Meredith: Shawn Murphy.
The Clerk: Shawn Murphy.
Mr. Murphy is not here, but he's a member of the committee.
Mr. Peschisolido.
Mr. Joe Peschisolido (Richmond, Lib.): I'd like to nominate Mac Harb.
Mr. John Bryden: I second Mr. Harb's nomination.
Ms. Beth Phinney (Hamilton Mountain, Lib.): You can't nominate two people.
The Clerk: We don't need the seconders, but we often accept them.
Mr. Bryden has declined. Thank you.
Mr. Mayfield.
Mr. Philip Mayfield: I'd like to nominate Mr. Finlay.
Mr. Mac Harb: I can't believe you guys.
The Clerk: Mr. Finlay.
Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, I'm a parliamentary secretary. I don't think I can....
The Clerk: Mr. Finlay declined.
¿ (0910)
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, Canadian Alliance): You're parliamentary secretary for what?
Mr. John Finlay: Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.
The Clerk: Have you declined?
Mr. John Finlay: Yes.
The Clerk: Mr. Saada.
[Translation]
Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): Mr. Clerk, could you kindly read out the names of those who have already been appointed?
[English]
The Clerk: Mr. Bryden has declined.
Mr. Murphy, Mr. Harb, and that's it. Mr. Finlay has declined.
Mr. Mac Harb: We only had two: Phinney and Harb.
The Clerk: Who nominated Madam Phinney?
Ms. Beth Phinney: I didn't decline.
Mr. Mac Harb: Yes, two. Phinney and Harb.
The Clerk: Who nominated Madam Phinney? Oh, Mr. Harb did, so we have three candidates.
Mr. Mac Harb: Two candidates.
The Clerk: The clerk cannot entertain points of order. I'm here to receive motions.
Ms. Beth Phinney: (Editor's Note: Inaudible)
The Clerk: Ms. Phinney wanted to know who, so far, has been nominated.
Ms. Beth Phinney: Because you don't know.
The Clerk: Ms. Phinney, Mr. Murphy, and Mr. Harb have been nominated.
Ms. Beth Phinney: And somebody has a motion on the floor to close the....
[Translation]
Mr. Jacques Saada: Mr. Clerk, how can you accept a nomination when the individual in question is not even here in person to accept?
The Clerk: It's possible. A Member can be elected in absentia.
[English]
Ms. Beth Phinney: You can't do that. I don't think so. We have to have a note or something.
Mr. Mac Harb: We don't make the rules on the run. If somebody is not here....
Mr. Paul Forseth: I would like to nominate Mr. Robert Bertrand; he's a member of the committee.
The Clerk: Mr. Forseth moves that Mr. Bertrand be elected vice-chair.
Mr. Mac Harb: He's not here.
The Clerk: Ms. Phinney.
Ms. Beth Phinney: I'm only 64 years old, I've been on committees for 24 of those years, and I've never known of a case where you can accept a nomination if the person has not indicated in writing that they would accept.
Mr. Paul Forseth: I move that nominations cease.
The Clerk: Are there any other nominations? There being no other nominations, I declare the nominations closed.
Before proceeding, I'll very briefly explain the process that will be conducted. Nominations for the vice-chair now being closed, my colleague to my left, who is a procedural clerk with the House of Commons, and I will stand to each side of the table, where we will issue ballots to members. After members have written their choice on the ballots and deposited them into the box at the table, I will count the votes and announce the successful candidate.
If no member receives a majority of the ballots cast, I will conduct another ballot. The same process will be used for the election of the second vice-chair.
Mr. John Bryden: I think this is so stupid.
(Members vote by secret ballot)
The Clerk: I declare Ms. Phinney to have received the majority of the votes.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
¿ (0915)
Ms. Beth Phinney: I thank the clerk for that. He had control, not us. There are no scrutineers.
The Clerk: We'll now proceed to the election of the second vice-chair position.
We are ready to receive nominations.
The Chair: No, that election is gone.
¿ (0920)
[Translation]
The Clerk: Mr. Desrochers.
Mr. Odina Desrochers: I nominate Mr. Murphy.
The Clerk: Mr. Desrochers nominates Mr. Murphy.
[English]
The Chair: I nominate Mr. Harb.
The Clerk: Ms. Meredith.
Ms. Val Meredith: I nominate Mr. Bertrand.
The Clerk: Mr. Perron.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ): I nominate Mr. Bryden.
[English]
The Clerk: Mr. Perron nominates Mr. Bryden. Mr. Bryden declines.
Mr. Paul Forseth: I nominate Mr. Lee.
The Clerk: Mr. Lee is not a member of the committee. He is acting as a replacement member today.
Are there any other nominations?
Mr. Philip Mayfield: I nominate Mr. Peschisolido.
The Clerk: Mr. Mayfield nominates Mr. Peschisolido, who declines.
Are there any other nominations?
Mr. Finlay.
Mr. John Finlay: I move that the nominations be closed.
The Clerk: If there are no other nominations, nominations are closed. We have three candidates: Mr. Murphy, Mr. Harb, and Mr. Bertrand.
We will now proceed to the ballot.
(Members vote by secret ballot)
The Clerk: I declare Mac Harb to have the majority of the votes.
I invite the duly elected chair, Mr. Williams, to take the chair. Congratulations.
¿ (0925)
The Chair: I would first like to congratulate our clerk on running the election. We are now formally constituted as a committee once more.
Mr. Mac Harb: This meeting is supposed to be in camera, but I see the signal is red, which means transmission.
An hon. member: It's a public meeting.
Mr. John Bryden: It's a public meeting with a secret ballot. We are so scared.
Mr. Mac Harb: I would like to move that the procedural motion not be dealt with at this meeting, but at the next meeting.
The Chair: We can't get going unless we have our rules of operation adopted. We have no way of conducting ourselves.
Do you have a motion, Mr. Harb?
Mr. Mac Harb: Yes, it's a motion that we deal with it at the next meeting.
The Chair: Do you want to speak to your motion?
Mr. Mac Harb: Yes, Mr. Chair.
First, speaking with some of my colleagues, there are a number of procedural and administrative questions that other committees of the House have, and I would really like to have a look at some of those administrative issues before we decide what things we would like to see in terms of procedure on this committee. This is the first time I have had a chance to see them, and that's why I thought it would be good for us, all members of the committee, to have a chance to look at all those motions.
I understand they are similar to what we had before. With what we had before, we had lots of problems on this committee, as you know, Mr. Chair--and I'm not going to speak to that at this meeting; I'm going to speak to it at the next meeting, when we are in camera. As a result of that, I am proposing that we have a meeting to deal with those issues at a later date, and that is the next possible time.
The Chair: The meeting is not televised, Mr. Harb. You are aware of that.
Mr. Mac Harb: I understand, Mr. Chair, and that's why I want to postpone.
The Chair: So we have a motion by Mr. Harb that the consideration of our routine motions be deferred at this point in time. I would therefore say that if this motion passes, the meeting is adjourned, because we have no methodology of conducting ourselves.
[Translation]
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to know if the motion is drafted in both languages.
[English]
The Chair: What did he say?
The Clerk: He wants to know if the motion is in the two official languages.
Mr. Mac Harb: We don't have rules on that; that's a simple motion. We have translation.
[Translation]
Mr. Odina Desrochers: No, Mr. Chairman, there are rules. I insist that the motion be in both languages...
[English]
The Chair: I'll ask the clerk to tell us the rules regarding a motion in two languages.
[Translation]
Mr. Jacques Saada: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.
[English]
The Clerk: Normally--if there is a normally--we do receive motions in both official languages, but when members are in debate on the floor of the committee, it is not uncommon that a motion, a simple motion such as Mr. Harb's, can be made.
[Translation]
The Chair: Go ahead, Mr. Desrochers.
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Two points, Mr. Chairman. The first concerns official languages. Also, I have to wonder why we are even considering a motion today, since 48 hours' notice is required before a motion can be debated. We did not receive 48 hours' notice of Mr. Harb's motion.
[English]
The Chair: Whoever has a cellphone will please turn it off.
The point that Mr. Harb is making is that we have no rules governing this committee at this point in time. Therefore, since the clerk has said that routine motions are normally acceptable when they're very short and simple, they can just be given on the floor of the committee, then the motion is in order. So we will have further debate on it.
Is there any further debate on the motion? Mr. Saada.
[Translation]
Mr. Jacques Saada: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Regardless of the rules in place, Mr. Desrochers has made a valid point. Therefore, I'd like to move the same motion, this time in French, namely that a decision on this matter be deferred until the next meeting. Now, the motion is in both official languages.
¿ (0930)
[English]
The Chair: Mr. Bryden, you had something to say.
Mr. John Bryden: Yes, Mr. Chairman, simply that, like Mr. Harb, I'd like to think about the procedure motions before us, with the view in mind that maybe improvements can be made, or maybe the status quo is just fine. But as we are going to begin a new committee life, I think the rules of procedure are important and we should be given the chance to reflect upon it. I think there may even be among us, here on this side, some disagreement on some of these procedural motions, and it would be nice to have a debate among ourselves to resolve those disagreements.
The Chair: Ms. Meredith.
Ms. Val Meredith: Mr. Chair, I've sat on quite a number of different committees in the House, and I'd like to know what specifically the issues are. Perhaps numbers could be changed or minor amendments made to some of these motions, in line with other committees, but I don't see that many things in here that would be out of the norm for every committee in the House of Commons.
The Chair: Mr. Mayfield then Mr. Keddy.
Mr. Philip Mayfield: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Harb mentioned that there are a number of serious difficulties with these rules as we had them previously. I wonder if he would articulate what the problems are so that I can consider this in the light of his thinking.
Mr. Mac Harb: Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to enter into a debate. All I'm proposing is a deferral until the next meeting. That's all.
Mr. Philip Mayfield: Mr. Harb, I'd like to think about--
Mr. Mac Harb: I simply don't want to enter into a debate. I know we're talking about adopting new rules for the committees, and we would like to have a look at those rules, look at whether or not there are other rules we would like to introduce, and that's the end of it.
The Chair: Okay, we'll have the debate on the motion.
Mr. Keddy.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): I think it's extremely inappropriate to bring a motion in. We all, hopefully, knew this meeting was going to occur, and if they had changes or amendments to any of the rules that were ready to be set before us today they should have come here prepared to bring their amendments in. To make a motion to disband when we've only just nominated our chair....
If you have an amendment to any of the rules, bring the amendment forth, we'll discuss it at committee and let's move on. We're all here.
The Chair: Mr. Bryden.
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Chairman, that's all well and good, but this is my first opportunity to look at the procedure.
Mr. Gerald Keddy: They're all the same, John.
Mr. John Bryden: That may well be. I don't know why we're wrangling about this actually--
A voice: It's a motion to defer.
Mr. John Bryden: --so let's just vote on it.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 9; nays 7)
The Chair: Before we adjourn, I would remind you that we have the Tuesday afternoon and the Thursday afternoon scheduled. November 19, Tuesday afternoon, will be the date of the next meeting. I will call a steering committee before that time.
The Clerk: They didn't pass the motion.
The Chair: Oh, they don't even have a steering committee.
The meeting is adjourned.