FAIT Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, February 10, 1998

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[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale, Lib.)): I'd like to call us back to order, please.

I would like to welcome before the committee Ambassador Gooch, presently our ambassador to the United Mexican States.

Ambassador Gooch, thank you very much for coming, sir. Perhaps you could give us a brief introductory comment on how you see the situation in Mexico, and any observations you might have about your role there. Then I know the members have some questions about Mexico they would like to ask you.

Mr. Stanley Gooch (Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the United Mexican States): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm very pleased to meet you and members of this committee, whose number includes a number of individuals who I've had the privilege and pleasure to meet or correspond with on other occasions.

[Translation]

In accordance with your mandate to review senior appointments, I will begin by briefly describing my experience and indicating some of the reasons which might have contributed to the government's decision to choose me for this important and challenging position.

I would also like to briefly share with you some of my initial views on what is happening in Mexico and on Canada-Mexico relations. I trust that will leave enough time for committee members to ask questions and inform me of their views and interests, which I am sure will help me to understand the situation and discharge my responsibilities effectively.

I have been a Foreign Service officer for 31 years. To date, I have spent half of my career outside Canada and the other half at the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. Two of my previous postings were to Latin America, specifically Argentina and Central America. My other postings abroad were to Yugoslavia, Austria, and more recently, India, where I was High Commissioner until October last year.

[English]

I think that's about enough about my own past, and I think my detailed biography is available to members. I have completed now 11 weeks in Mexico. It has been a very interesting start to this assignment, and with preparations for Team Canada dominating embassy activities for most of these weeks, a busy one as well.

Despite my earlier experiences with Mexico, two significant developments have particularly impressed me. The first is the pace of change that is taking place both economically and politically in Mexico. The second has been the extent that Canada has become truly important to Mexico and vice versa, which was demonstrated exceptionally clearly during the recently highly successful visit of Team Canada.

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Mexico's economic relations, its reforms, its reversal of generations of inward-looking protectionist policies began during the previous administration. Its crowning achievement, of course, has been the signature of NAFTA.

The NAFTA negotiations sparked an economic boom, which crashed in 1994-95—the so-called peso crisis. In respect of most economic indicators, the Mexican economy is making an excellent recovery.

The peso is strong and relatively steady. Growth rates are good—7% in 1997. Foreign exchange reserves are relatively high, in fact about the same as ours. Inflation is declining and exports have continued to expand rapidly. In fact, in 1997 Mexico displaced Japan as the second most important source of imports into the United States, behind Canada, of course.

More recently, the Mexican economy has been among the least affected, at least so far, by the Asian crisis. This is perhaps because the major causes of the 1994 crisis have been addressed fairly successfully.

But there are still problems. My conversations with many Mexican business people have indicated that the problems of 1994-95 continue to haunt them and have instilled in them a more cautious approach. They are carefully watching the impact of the Asian crisis on their exports, many of which compete head to head with products from a now cheaper southeast Asia.

The reduction in global oil prices is also a negative factor for any oil-exporting countries such as Mexico. The Mexican central bank has reduced expectations for growth for 1998 to below the 7% recorded last year, whereas earlier predictions had been for an even higher growth rate. The Mexican government, for its part, has moved quickly to reduce expenditures to compensate for anticipated lower revenues.

These shorter-term economic issues of course pale in comparison to the much larger economic problems that have major social consequences. Perhaps the most important is the fact that the number of economically marginalized citizens has not been reduced. Indeed, their numbers have grown in real terms as a consequence of the 1994-95 crisis.

Recent statistics demonstrate that rural poverty in Mexico remains much more acute than in most urban centres. This helps to explain why the already huge Mexican cities grow larger every day. The number of people living in desperate poverty is a significant factor as well in the increasing crime—especially violent crime—that has been taking place.

Significant political change is taking place. Opposition parties now run five states, most of them relatively large and important. The opposition parties, primarily the PRD and the PAN, together now control the lower house—the Chamber of Deputies—and are transforming the legislative branch into a significant player in the governance of the country.

This past year, the first-ever election for mayor of Mexico City was won by Cuauhtémoc Cardenas of the PRD—a major opposition leader. Many observers, including some senior members of the PRI, predict that an opposition candidate will win the next presidential elections in the year 2000.

A number of factors are contributing to this ongoing democratic transition. One important change has been in the mechanics of conducting elections, which now includes a number of new procedures and innovations that make cheating much more difficult. Elections Canada and several of the provincial election commissions have provided considerable assistance and support in these efforts.

Another factor has been the rapid emergence of a truly free press, which aggressively exposes electoral and other forms of corruption. Credit also should be given to President Zedillo and his administration, which have made unprecedented efforts to democratize the system.

Finally, it should be noted that political and economic reform enjoys the overwhelming support of all Mexicans, who I believe see these reforms as part of the process of integrating into the world community.

At this point, Mr. Chairman, let me say a word or two about Chiapas, an issue of considerable concern to many Canadians. When I arrived in Mexico in mid-November, I was told that nothing had happened on the Chiapas issue for quite some time. Many people were genuinely concerned that tensions were rising and that something terrible could happen at any time. Unfortunately, their predictions turned out to be true when on December 22, 45 people were massacred in the small town of Acteal in Chiapas.

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This terrible event, however, has had the effect of moving Chiapas very much onto the front burner. Earlier government policy seemed to be one of neglect perhaps in the hope that this complex problem would go away. But the new approach seems to be one of finding a fair and lasting solution as expeditiously as possible.

President Zedillo moved quickly to condemn the massacre. He placed the federal attorney general, supported by the national human rights commission, in charge of investigating this horrible crime. Very shortly, 45 people, including the mayor of an adjoining town, were under arrest.

Next, he changed his entire Chiapas team, beginning with the minister of the interior, the state governor, and the chief government negotiator for Chiapas, for a new team of pragmatists, who have moved quite quickly to reactivate dialogue among the players.

The San Andres accords, which had long been rejected by the government because of concerns over the implications of autonomy, seemed to be back on the table. This appears to indicate a new determination and flexibility on the government's side.

Despite these positive actions since the massacre, however, it's too early to predict quick success. The extreme complexity of this issue and the inflexibility on all sides have frustrated other hopes for success on a number of occasions. However, I do see hope, perhaps the best hope in several years, emerging out of the aftermath of the terrible pre-Christmas tragedy.

Finally, let me briefly move to Canadian-Mexican relations, where there were also important advances in the past two or three years.

The most important qualitative change I see is that Mexico now regards Canada as a truly important economic and political partner. I contrast this with the attitude when NAFTA was negotiated. At that time, Canadian involvement in what Mexicans regarded as their negotiation with the U.S.A. was widely seen as having symbolic importance, as Canada's involvement made the historic change in relations with the United States more acceptable to traditionally nationalistic Mexicans.

Much emphasis, of course, has been placed on the growing importance of our trade and economic relationship. Two-way trade is up 30%. This is a figure that sounds good until you examine it more carefully. You'll see that the bulk of the growth has been in Mexican sales to Canada.

But Canadian business is bullish on Mexico. Canadian investment is up, and all indicators are that more is on the way. Some 800 Canadian companies have made investments in Mexico. These are investments that demonstrate their presence. Of course, 400 additional companies participated in Team Canada's visit to Mexico. Many of these were new SMEs.

Together with the business community and the provinces, we identified 10 priority sectors where Canada is strong and that match priority sectors for Mexico. This has served as the basis for developing a sound game plan. It's what we call the Mexico trade action plan of 1998.

My own instructions are to devote my top priority to the further expansion of trade. I'm very optimistic that export sales can improve considerably in the next two to three years.

Canadian relations with Mexico, however, have always gone well beyond economic relations. More than 50 active bilateral agreements, which cover the full range of international issues from joint efforts to combat drug trafficking to the protection of the monarch butterfly, are now in place. The joint ministerial committee that meets at least every two years has given birth to a wide range of specialized committees at the levels of ministers or senior officials. A new Canada education centre was opened in Mexico less than one year ago and is already the second most successful in the network run by the Asia Pacific Foundation.

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Mexico is emerging as a key ally in the pursuit of many of our foreign policy objectives. On landmines, for example, Mexico was a core partner, assisting especially in bringing a number of countries in this hemisphere to the Ottawa conference as signatories.

During the Team Canada visit a CIDA-Mexico MOU was signed that will continue this cooperation by working together in Central America on de-mining. While I am here, I would like to encourage this Parliament to develop more extensive links with the Mexican congress, which as I mentioned earlier is emerging as a significant element in the Mexican governing system.

Finally, I want to assure you of the importance I attach to providing effective and efficient consular service from the ten, soon to be eleven, points of service that the government operates in Mexico for the approximately one million Canadians who visit that country each year, as well as those who live there more or less permanently.

[Translation]

Mr. Chairman and committee members, I feel honoured and privileged to have been assigned by the government to represent Canada in Mexico, particularly at this time.

My first 11 weeks spent in Mexico have convinced me that working effectively and efficiently there will be a major challenge. I can only promise to do my utmost to serve Canada and Canadians well at all times, in every aspect of our relationship with Mexico. Thank you.

[English]

The Chairman: Merci beaucoup. We have four members and about twenty minutes, so let's keep it to five minutes each, if that's all right.

Mr. Mills, we'll start with you.

Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Thank you very much. I certainly welcome the Ambassador here. I trust you won't have any competition for our resident senator, Ambassador. Don't compete with him anyway.

I really have two questions. One is on the Team Canada effects. I did my own Team Canada. I was in Chile for 16 days prior to the arrival of Team Canada and then I was in Argentina four days after Team Canada for four days. It was my own Team Canada. I certainly got impressions. I met with literally hundreds of Argentinian and Chilean businessmen and so on and got their feelings for how effective Team Canada was.

I wonder what you feel in terms of the big splash and how effective it is in Mexico. I assume there are a lot of similarities in the three countries.

I'll ask both questions at the same time, if I might.

Our last ambassador to Mexico had a problem, which I think all of us were not very happy about. I wonder how much of a problem or how big a wound there is to heal there, now that you've been there for three months, or however long.

Mr. Stanley Gooch: Thank you, Mr. Mills.

First of all, in fact the visit of Team Canada was the second I have experienced. I had the pleasure of receiving Team Canada in India two years ago. I would say that as with India, the impact on Mexico has been very considerable. The Team Canada visit to Mexico was the largest ever visit by a foreign delegation of that type to Mexico. It attracted a great deal of publicity in Mexico and a great deal of attention to Canadian capabilities and generally to the very close nature of the relationship with Canada.

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I think in specific sectors where we had individual seminars and made some effort to publicize individual capabilities in accordance with our ten priority areas, we have a very good chance of generating considerable new business for Canada.

The Mexican government, like several others on the itinerary of Team Canada, went out of its way to ensure the visit was a success. In fact, in my 30-plus years in the diplomatic service, I have never seen a host government try so hard to make the visit a great success. President Zedillo himself spent nine hours of his personal time with the delegation. This is the sort of impact Team Canada had.

Overall it was a very successful visit. Obviously I think it would have been more successful if the Prime Minister, the head of our government, had attended, but even so it was a very successful visit there.

I have frequently been asked by the Mexican press about the impact the situation involving my predecessor has had on our relations. Of course, I went to Mexico wondering how I would be received, both by the government and by individual Mexicans. Many people commented to me about this situation.

I think the overwhelming reaction by Mexicans has been to go out of their way to make me feel comfortable in Mexico personally and to make it clear that the Canadian-Mexican relationship is extremely strong and can withstand any particular events, any incidents of that nature. I don't want to go too far in commenting on it per se. I think any negative feelings some Mexicans might have had—

Mr. Bob Mills: It's not handicapping you.

Mr. Stanley Gooch: Right, it has not handicapped me.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Ms. Debien.

Ms. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Good morning, Mr. Ambassador. I would like to welcome you to our committee. I'd like to talk to you about Chiapas. As we know, following the events of December 22, certain senior officers were obliged to step down from their positions. Following the events of January 12 at Ocosingo, a number of officers were also arrested and their weapons confiscated.

There were other events before those I mentioned, and certain measures were taken against individuals. In most cases, and please excuse the expression, it was lower-ranking people who were affected, people working on the ground or directly involved in the massacre and caught in the act.

However, a number of observers believe that the PRI and its leaders are closely linked with all these killings and events. In fact, I believe your predecessor referred to that in one of his statements. I appreciate that this is a very sensitive subject for you, but I would like to have your comments on the issue.

[English]

Mr. Stanley Gooch: Merci, Mrs. Debien.

First of all, I think the response of the Mexican government to the massacre of December 22 was quite decisive and quite categorical. As I mentioned in my earlier remarks, it led to the resignation of the minister of the interior, who generally is regarded as the second most powerful person in Mexico, to the change in the governor of the state, and to the change in the chief negotiator.

The 45 who were first arrested were arrested rather quickly, and a number of the people arrested in the first wave were from a neighbouring village that was generally regarded as a “PRI village”. These are the terms they use in Chiapas and not ones we're assigning to them.

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More recently, over this past weekend I received word that a number of military and police have also been arrested, apparently for complicity in that incident or in other incidents.

There is a significant change here. What this represents is, I hope—and I think there's quite a bit of evidence to support this—an end of impunity, which has been a problem in the past. The president himself speaks about bringing an end to impunity for those who have acted outside the law, especially in places such as Chiapas. So I'm hoping this will lead to a fundamental change.

As to the overall involvement of the PRI, there hasn't been any evidence submitted by anyone that suggests that more than a few people who call themselves PRI sympathizers might have been implicated. The PRI of 1998 in Mexico is not the PRI of a few years ago. It is not a single, well-oiled machine that operates as a single force across Mexico. It's changed a great deal, as have other aspects of democratization in that country.

Merci beaucoup.

The Chairman: Merci.

Mr. Assadourian.

Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador. Welcome to cold Ottawa. Don't take the lack of attendance personally; it's because of the weather. If we had had this meeting in Mexico City, I'm sure everybody would have been there, including me.

So next time, Mr. Chairman, if we have this meeting, please consider that we should be in Mexico in February of any year.

Earlier my colleague from Reform mentioned the senator. Did that have any effect on your relationships or the perception of Mexicans about Canadian governments and institutions? That's my first question.

Second, the former ambassador, Mr. Perron, made the statement that when he was in Medellin, he had just about seen it all, but then Mexico topped the list. Oddly, we recalled the ambassador back here and then they appointed you. I have no problem with that, but the Mexican government never denied that. That was puzzling to me. Why wouldn't they deny it?

The other concern I have is that in the last few years we've had a massive outburst of violence—not a small assassination or a bomb here and a bomb there, but massive. Why is there so massive an outburst every two or three years? Is there a specific reason, political or economic? What's the reason, and how can we help them overcome this? Is it poverty?

Finally, on the first page it says life expectancy is 69 years for male, 85 years for female. I know you aren't a medical doctor, but the gap is very wide. Is there a reason, lifestyle or something? Why is there such a difference there?

An hon. member: Because that's the way it should be.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Stanley Gooch: It's 65 for men.

The Chairman: Just in case you're wondering what the source of the statistics is, Ambassador, they're the department statistics.

Mr. Stanley Gooch: Well, what can I say?

First of all, on the question about the senator, this affair has had very little attention or impact in Mexico. I would say the impact on perceptions of Canada by Mexicans has been very negligible.

On the question of corruption, it's clear that corruption is a global phenomenon. It's a problem that Canadians face, especially Canadians doing business, but also the travelling public, in the vast majority of countries, to a varying degree, that they may choose to visit or do business in. Obviously there are multilateral global efforts under way through the OECD and the OAS to try to develop global standards and a global treaty on corruption. Mexico has signed the global treaty that the OAS negotiated within the past year.

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There are organizations such as Transparency International that rank countries, all countries, including Canada, on a corruption index in a fairly objective way according to objective criteria. You may know that Canada comes fairly low on this index—low in terms of corruption. We are against it. We do fight corruption in any country internationally, and multilaterally or bilaterally, because it of course is an issue that touches fundamental Canadian values.

I think it also touches very much our commitment to international development if decisions, especially in developing countries, are based on criteria other than the best economic criteria available. It costs in terms of development and it costs global efforts in terms of reduced efficiency in improving global standards.

Finally, I think it hurts Canadian companies. I believe Canadian companies are among the most competitive in virtually every market in the world, especially in the sectors where we do well. It is very much in our economic interests to fight corruption wherever we may find it. This is certainly an issue we will always struggle against.

The Chairman: I'm sorry to interrupt you. I was with the ambassador in Mexico and when we met with President Zedillo he personally said to me that one of the reasons behind deregulation in Mexico is that when you have a huge number of regulations being administered by a bureaucracy that is very lowly paid, it is an invitation for corruption. The Mexican government was seeking to deal with that issue both by raising the pay of their bureaucrats and at the same time deregulating so that there weren't a thicket of things people had to pay.

In your view, do you think they are making progress in those two areas?

Mr. Stanley Gooch: We see that the president makes these comments publicly and privately. I think he is firmly committed to fighting corruption. We see press reports very frequently, and other reports, of people who are being charged or being dismissed from their posts for various corrupt acts. As to whether it's making an impact, give me a little more time. I can't tell on the basis of a couple of months at the post.

The Chairman: We'll take one other answer and then....

Mr. Stanley Gooch: I think rising violence in Mexico is primarily a function of economic desperation on the part of quite a large part of the population. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the number of people in that situation went up as a result of the 1994-95 crisis. Only now is confidence being restored to Mexicans and to Mexican business so that they are expanding again, but in the meantime population growth is quite rapid. So there continues to be a large number of economically desperate people in Mexico.

As to life expectancy, I'm amazed. I suspect there's some typing error in this. I don't see a significantly larger number of elderly females than elderly males in Mexico. I don't think this can be right.

The Chairman: Maybe the women look a lot younger there.

Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: I know they have rights, but this is too much.

The Chairman: I think we'd better turn to Ms. Augustine on this note.

Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Welcome, Your Excellency. We're very pleased to see you here before us.

Could you speak to us for a few minutes about your staff, your staff support, the kinds of issues you deal with, how your office or your position is connected with the immigration counselling office, and to a certain extent what is a typical day in the life of His Excellency Stanley Edward Gooch?

Mr. Stanley Gooch: Thank you, Ms. Augustine.

First of all, the embassy itself in Mexico has 27 Canadian employees and 90 Mexican employees. A fairly broad range of Canadian government activities and programs is represented at the embassy. There is obviously a large trade and economic section and a fairly significantly large political, general relations, and public affairs section. We have liaison officers for the RCMP and for CSIS. We have a military attaché. We have a small immigration section, and we have a fairly substantial consular and administrative section.

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Consular work is a very significant part of the activities of the embassy, which is supported at present by two consulates staffed by at least one career person from DFAIT. Those are in Monterey and Guadalajara. We have honorary consuls located in Acapulco, Puerto Vallarta, Cancun, Mazatlan, Oaxaca, San Miguel de Allende, and Tijuana, and we will shortly open one in Los Cabos, which is near the bottom of Baja, California.

I think the immigration section in Mexico is quite small. We have only one Canada-based staff member. We do not require visas of visiting Mexicans. The immigration caseload is about 1,300 per year. It also administers a seasonal workers program, which brings about 5,000—this year, 6,000—temporary agricultural workers to Canada.

That's the work of the immigration program. The immigration program manager reports to me, but on the basis of the instructions and guidance he receives from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.

A day in the life of Stanley Gooch: Mexico, I find, has a lot of working breakfasts. Frequently a working breakfast will start at 8 a.m. or 8.30 a.m. We make a number of calls on people in the foreign ministry, on the businesses, particularly on Mexican government people—ministers and officials—and more and more on people in the Mexican congress.

Working lunches are also a fairly significant part of Mexican business life. In Mexico they start at about 2.30 p.m. and often run until about 5 p.m. I don't usually stay until 5 p.m., I might say. Then work goes on until 7 p.m.

There are often cocktail parties of various types in the evening. We meet a lot of visiting Canadians, because a lot of Canadians, representing a wide variety of interests, are visiting Mexico at this time. For instance, the day before I left I met someone representing Disabled Peoples' International, which is based in Winnipeg. That person was seeking some embassy assistance in staging the international conference on the disabled, which will be held in Mexico in December 1998.

These sorts of things come up quite often. I plan to travel a lot to various Mexican cities, beginning with those in which we have consulates. I'm going to visit the first one next week. I'm going to Guadalajara, and I'm going to visit the Canadian community as well in Ajijic, which is fairly near Guadalajara. I believe we have even greater opportunities to exploit in Mexico outside Mexico City than we still have in Mexico City, although there are considerable opportunities there as well.

Ms. Jean Augustine: Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Next is Mr. Paradis, and then Mr. Mills has a very quick question to follow up.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Paradis (Brome—Missisquoi, Lib.): First, Mr. Ambassador, allow me to congratulate you on your appointment.

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In the briefing notes on Mexico given to us, it states that approximately 70 per cent of imports into Mexico in 1994 came from the United States, and 2 per cent from Canada. That is quite a significant difference here. Of course, we now have NAFTA.

[English]

I think NAFTA should increase our exchanges with Mexico. Here on the Canadian side, I think everybody knows that our public works department has a new thing called Contract Canada so that you can bid on different government offers or tenders.

[Translation]

As a result of NAFTA and the changes in Public Works Canada, it is now possible to see on the Internet all calls for tenders by the Canadian government—there are about 100 every day—and since we are members of NAFTA we can see the same thing for the U.S. government.

I think it is important for all Canadian small and medium-size businesses to have as much information as possible on all calls for tenders issued by the Mexican government, so that Canadian suppliers are able to respond. This information can be obtained today through the Internet.

I don't know, because I haven't checked, if calls for tenders issued by the Mexican government do appear on the Internet, as is the case with the U.S. and the Canadian government under NAFTA. If they are not shown, would it be possible for the Mexican authorities at some point to become involved in this wide-ranging process of communicating calls for tenders issued by their government?

Mr. Stanley Gooch: I am sorry, but I don't know anything about that.

[English]

I am aware that NAFTA is supposed to have open government procurement to the countries within NAFTA. What you say about contracts being available on Internet for Canada and the United States I'm very interested in. I don't know whether it's available on Mexico, but I will find out. I will also find out why if it's not on there.

Mr. Denis Paradis: If it's not on there, can we ask you to make some effort to...? It's very important for our small and medium-sized businesses in Canada that this information be made available to everybody in the country.

[Translation]

Moreover, with the current value of the Canadian dollar against the U.S. dollar, I believe that our small and medium-size businesses are in a good position to compete in NAFTA markets when contracts are being offered by Mexico.

Mr. Stanley Gooch: Yes, I fully agree.

[English]

The Chairman: As a committee we could perhaps even write to the minister and say he should pick this up. It is a good idea, and we should probably do it.

Mr. Mills.

Mr. Bob Mills: The question I forgot—and you brought it up—is on the honorary consuls. I will write to you about the honorary consul in Tijuana and a problem that a Canadian citizen had there.

What sort of supervision, what sort of control do you have? In this case it involved the death of a young person. The mother was there and was basically told by the honorary consul, who had to go golfing at the time, that she should go three blocks down to get a cab and that if she wanted a photocopy of the death certificate she could get it at the post office, which was three blocks away. It was a Canadian honorary consul telling a mother who had just lost her son that information. It was totally unacceptable.

It really concerns me that we have these honorary consuls out there who may not in fact be taking care of Canadian citizens, not just in Mexico but anywhere. I wonder what kind of control you as an ambassador have over these kinds of people.

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Mr. Stanley Gooch: Thank you, Mr. Mills. I certainly agree with your observations.

We have several varieties—if I can put it that way—of honorary consuls in Mexico. Three of them, the ones in Acapulco, Puerto Vallarta and Cancun, are in fact salaried—you could say contract—employees of the Government of Canada, and work full-time, and have at least one full-time staff member. These are the busiest honorary consulates.

The ones in Mazatlan, Oaxaca, and San Miguel de Allende are part-time, but also work on sort of a contract basis, all out of offices that are rented by the Government of Canada. The one in Tijuana is the only one left that operates out of his own office and more or less on his own time. He has a little bit of a different arrangement, which implies less responsibility.

The reason we have honorary consulates in all of these places instead of career consuls is that the price tag is very low. The total cost of all of the honorary consulates in Mexico is about $400,000 Canadian a year. We have developed service standards, and what we are going to try to do this year is to make sure they are applied in a consistent manner in all of the consulates, including the one you mentioned.

We are also going to be visiting them more frequently than has been done in the past. We are instituting more training programs for all of the honorary consuls than we've had in the past. We hope that all in all this will provide consistently good service to the travelling public.

We're opening, as I mentioned earlier, a new honorary consulate in Los Cabos this year, which reflects the increasing travel by Canadians, especially in charters, to that part of Baja, California—the bottom part of Baja, California. A few years ago nobody went there, and now there are dozens of charters every week going to that particular area.

That's what we're trying to do. They all report to me through the consular officer in the embassy, and we will do our best to improve the standard of service.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Ambassador, just on the point of honorary consuls, I presume the number of them, and the reason why you have them in San Miguel, is because there's a large Canadian population there. Is it your impression that the number of people that will be going to Mexico, say as opposed to Florida as a winter destination, is growing all the time? Is this quite a significant place where Canadians are now going to take up winter residence just the way many of them go to Florida?

Mr. Stanley Gooch: We have significant communities in and around Puerto Vallarta, in and around San Miguel de Allende, Guadalajara, and Lake Chapala and Ajijic, which is nearby, but the grand total of Canadians registered with us and with the consulates is about 2,000.

We think there are perhaps 300,000 Canadians living in Mexico. A significant number are permanent residents—Mennonites who migrated a couple of generations ago to Mexico but maintain their Canadian citizenship. About the other half are Canadians who spend a significant amount of time each year in Mexico.

The number doesn't seem to be increasing very rapidly. It seems to be about the same as we have thought before. But since so few register, we really don't know how much of an increase there is in people who live there several months.

The number of charters is going up slightly. We get about 46 charters a week into Puerto Vallarta, and about 90 to the whole country. So that's a lot of Canadians arriving, a lot of Canadians getting off the plane from Canada with little knowledge about Mexico and little knowledge about the sorts of problems they could run into. As a result, through the Internet and through a brochure entitled “¿Que Pasa?”, we're trying to give advice to Canadians who come to Mexico and can encounter all sorts of difficulties.

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The Chairman: Thank you very much, Ambassador. On behalf of the committee I would like to thank you for coming. We wish you very well in your post.

Mr. Stanley Gooch: Thank you.

The Chairman: I would just remind members that we have an information meeting about Iraq at 3.30 p.m. I understand there's been a special call for a meeting of Liberals. The foreign minister has called a briefing session for 4.30 p.m., which presumably is on the same.... We have an information session on Iraq at 3.30 p.m. today. That will be followed by something the foreign minister is doing at 4.30 p.m.

Thank you very much. We're adjourned until 3.30 p.m.