SHUR Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

SOUS-COMITÉ DES DROITS DE LA PERSONNE ET DU DÉVELOPPEMENT INTERNATIONAL DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, December 3, 1997

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[English]

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.)): Good afternoon. This is a meeting of the Sub-Committee on Human Rights and International Development of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

Today's subject is international child abductions. We'll hear from the following witnesses: Barbara Snider, case director, eastern Canada, from the Missing Children Society of Canada; Aggie Castleman, executive director, International Social Service Canada; Susan Armstrong, executive director from the Missing Children's Network; and Patrick Bergeron, director of SEARCH. We are also expecting the executive director and the president of Child Find to join us. Most likely they'll be with us before too long.

We'll begin by asking the witnesses to make their opening statements, and after the opening statements there will be some questions from the members.

Ms. Barbara Snider (Case Director, Eastern Canada, Missing Children Society of Canada): The Missing Children Society of Canada has been involved in the search for missing and abducted children since 1986. We are a federally incorporated, non-profit organization and offer all of our services free of charge.

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Approximately 51% of our caseload is classified as parental abduction. About 90% of the parental abductions registered with the society are believed to have left Canada and fled to another country. The society has successfully assisted in the recovery of children abducted to the United States, Europe, Mexico, Morocco, and Uganda. However, we currently have children in Yugoslavia, Slovakia, Iran, Bermuda, Jamaica, the Philippines, and Saudi Arabia whose searching parents are desperately attempting to have them returned to their home country of Canada.

In a 1991 American study on international parental abduction conducted by Hegar and Grief, it was found that children subject to international parental abduction tended to be older. Of the 118 children studied, 37% were over the age of 8 and only 15% under the age of 2. The abductor tended to be foreign born and usually older, with an average age of 36.

The foreign-born abductor tended to be more successful in keeping the child from the other parent if they fled the country, but this did not appear to be the only reason for their flight. Where the flight was to their home country, their affinity for their country of origin, their understanding of the culture, and the availability of sympathetic friends and family seemed to play a major role. Hegar and Grief note that the most important finding was that when certain conditions were present, international abduction resulted in significantly fewer recoveries of children.

Over the next few minutes we wish to share with you the frustrations and difficulties parents experience during their search by profiling one case. To protect the identity of the mother and child who are now attempting to pick up the pieces of their lives, we have changed the names of all parties involved.

On August 22, 1996 Mrs. Smith arrived home to find her husband and three-year-old son missing. Mr. and Mrs. Smith were married in Toronto in 1989. Mr. Smith was born in Morocco but was a Canadian citizen. Mrs. Smith was a landed immigrant from Trinidad. While the couple were still living together, this marriage was in turmoil. Mr. Smith, who was unemployed, was planning a visit with his family in Morocco. He felt the need to be away from his wife and child to consider the possibility of terminating his marriage. As well as family in Morocco, Mr. Smith had relatives in western Canada and France.

Investigations revealed that Mr. Smith had fraudulently applied for and received a Canadian passport for his son one month prior to the abduction. He had applied for and been receiving welfare as a single parent of one child without the knowledge of his wife for the previous 10 months. On August 22, after selling some of the family's personal belongings, he left on a flight bound for Paris, France.

Mrs. Smith had obtained a custody order from the Ontario courts. A Canada-wide warrant for abduction had been issued for Mr. Smith with a red alert circulated through INTERPOL. A Hague application was completed with the central authority, and through Foreign Affairs the Canadian consulates in Paris and Morocco were alerted. Metropolitan Toronto Police requested the assistance of the Missing Children Registry, who in turn requested that Paris police interview Mr. Smith's mother, who was residing there.

With all of this assistance we were still unable to confirm the location of Mr. Smith and the child. Over the next three months Mrs. Smith made daily phone calls to her husband's relatives in Paris and Morocco, begging for any news on her son, but to no avail.

Mrs. Smith was barely coping. She was losing time at work for court appearances and police meetings. She was forced to move to cheaper accommodations and was also trying to pay her horrendous monthly phone bills as well as the bills her husband had accumulated before his departure.

By late November investigation showed that Mr. Smith's bank card was used in Morocco to withdraw his GST cheque from his Toronto bank account. At the same time, a friend of Mrs. Smith who was travelling in France contacted her, saying that she had seen the child outside the home of Mr. Smith's mother. While all of this new information needed to be followed up, the Moroccan government claimed that if the father was in Morocco he was entitled to live there freely with his son. There was still no response from the Paris police to the first request for assistance.

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Mrs. Smith was convinced that her son was in Paris and began to make travel arrangements. While all parties involved felt that this was premature, we could not or would not prevent Mrs. Smith from going.

At the suggestion of the France central authority Mrs. Smith retained a Paris lawyer, but after three weeks Mrs. Smith returned to Canada alone. However, she was able to meet with her mother-in-law, who continued to say that she had no knowledge of her son's whereabouts.

On January 15, 1997, the Canadian consulate in Morocco received two anonymous phone calls requesting assistance in returning a Canadian child back to his mother in Canada. The caller stated that Mr. Smith and the child had been in Morocco since September 1996 and were staying with various relatives, but the family was now refusing to support him and wanted him to return the child back to his mother. They continued to say that the child was very unhappy and the family was not pleased with the way Mr. Smith treated the child.

While we now had a location on Mr. Smith, there was virtually nothing anyone could do as Morocco is not a signatory of the Hague. However, two days later the Missing Children Society received a collect call from Mr. Smith stating that he wanted to return to Canada with his son. Over the next 11 days we had daily communications with Mr. Smith, conferencing calls to Metro Toronto Police and Foreign Affairs in Ottawa to work out the details, and on January 28, 1997, Mr. Smith and his son arrived back in Canada. After five months and now $20,000 in debt, Mrs. Smith had her son back, but if Mr. Smith's family had openly supported him, we know that this child would still be in Morocco.

The society has reviewed the proposed measures the government has indicated they plan to study and we encourage the Canadian government to openly address the issues of the Hague convention with non-participating countries at every opportunity.

However, we also need to examine what can be done within the boundaries of Canada. While we understand you are dealing with the issues on a federal level, you are in a position to set an example for the provinces. Education on the issues of parental abduction is by far the greatest prevention measure we have. By gathering the key players, such as lawyers and judges, for a workshop or conference on the issues of parental abduction we may provide them with the knowledge to better deal with the cases before them.

Too many times we have seen the restrained parent flee the country after fraudulently obtaining a passport for the child. The procedures for obtaining a child's passport need to be reviewed. Possibly both parents need to present themselves with identification at the passport office or a notarized letter from the absent parent giving permission rather than the now required signature, which anyone can sign.

The fact that small children can now be placed on either one of their parent's passports gives that one parent a greater opportunity of fleeing. Possibly children should be required to have their own passport, and certainly the issues of seizing passports of all parties involved in a custody dispute needs to be addressed by all levels of court.

One issue that has not been addressed is financial aid for searching parents. While we are fortunate in Canada to have a travel program for parents recovering their children, there is nothing in place to assist parents who are required to travel to a foreign country for a court appearance or to assist them in their foreign legal fees. Even in Hague countries, some parents are unable to finance the sometimes lengthy court proceedings required in getting their child back. It is the searching parent who assumes the financial burden while many times the abducting parent is represented by the legal aid system in that country and even given a free trip back to Canada if extradition is recognized.

In Canada we are required to file income tax every year. This may open the door for our government to consider some type of tax rebate to parents who are currently involved in a search for their abducted child.

On behalf of the Missing Children Society of Canada, we thank you for giving us this opportunity of addressing the issues of parental abduction and we would eagerly participate in any education process to better inform the judicial system of the issues before us. Thank you.

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The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Thank you very much, Barbara, for an excellent presentation of the issues and some good suggestions as to how we should move.

Susan is from your agency?

Ms. Susan Armstrong (Executive Director, The Missing Children's Network Canada): From a different agency.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Okay. It was announced wrongly. From the Missing Children's Network.

What we'll do, then, is move to Aggie Castleman and ask her to make her presentation.

Ms. Aggie Castleman (Executive Director, International Social Service Canada): Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I welcome the opportunity to address this committee on the issues of international child abduction.

International Social Service is a network of national branches, affiliated bureaux and correspondents that facilitate communication among social services in different countries in order to resolve socio-legal problems of individuals and families resulting from migration and international mobility. The ISS general secretariat is located in Geneva, and presently the global network of ISS spans approximately 120 countries.

ISS has its roots in global mobility. International Social Service was established in 1924 in response to the massive disruption of families caused by migration following the war. Social welfare agencies around the world were not prepared for the volume and complexity of problems. It was seen that a specialized agency was needed for co-operative actions between countries to assist individuals and families to overcome problems resulting from migration.

The universal core activity of International Social Service is the provision of inter-country social work liaison service in order to assist children and families in difficult circumstances whose problems require resolution in two or more countries. The expertise of International Social Service cuts across barriers of nationality, language, culture and legal systems to help resolve these complex family and individual situations, including child abduction.

Services are provided through the ISS network in English, Spanish and French, by the ISS national units.

In Canada, ISS Canada was federally incorporated as a non-profit organization in 1979 as the national office of International Social Service, after having provided services since the 1950s under the umbrella of the Canadian Council on Social Development.

From our small office in Ottawa, ISS Canada arranges for services worldwide in order to facilitate services on behalf of Canadian social service agencies, government departments and non-governmental organizations. The essential tool used throughout ISS is the social history, which provides the worker in the other country with a good understanding of the situation in Canada, the family background, thereby enabling a meaningful intervention overseas.

International Social Service Canada is funded through a contract on services and fees for services. We have an annual contribution from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. We also have a contract for service on cases with the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

Over 70% of the referrals received by International Social Service Canada involve services with the provinces in which they require assistance in child welfare matters that have international dimensions. Child abuse investigations, arranging for parents or relatives in other countries to be interviewed to support agency planning for children in care, service of child welfare documents to these parents overseas, and supervision of wards visiting or returned to parents or relatives overseas are just a few of the services requiring ISS assistance.

ISS Canada co-operates with the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade on cases involving abandoned Canadian minors, child abduction cases, destitute elderly situations, and others for whom special planning and assistance is required.

Cases with the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade comprise approximately 22% of the referrals that ISS Canada receives. Collaboration between the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade and ISS Canada dates to the beginning of ISS services in Canada. Joint co-operation between Canadian missions and ISS partners overseas is effective in resolving many problematic situations that arise for Canadians abroad.

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ISS Canada also participates in the costs of training programs for the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade to explain the work of International Social Service and possible areas of co-operation with the Canadian missions. When these programs are conducted overseas, ISS Canada arranges for someone else in the branch in the other country to provide that orientation on ISS.

Global protection of children is a priority of International Social Service. ISS has had observer status with the Hague Conference on Private International Law, which dates back to the 1960s, when the Hague Convention on the Protection of Minors was developed. ISS was a key international organization which worked on the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction, providing case studies to government delegates that illustrated the scope and the nature of the phenomenon. ISS was a strong advocate for the establishment of the central authorities to monitor the implementation of the convention, and ISS was supportive of the object of the convention as set out in article 1; i.e., the immediate return of the child who has been wrongfully removed to the custodial parent in the country of habitual residence.

ISS Canada provides input to these international procedures through our ISS general secretariat. We also co-operate with Justice Canada in matters such as reviewing draft conventions and convening meetings to provide input from Canadian non-governmental agencies for their consideration in preparing submissions for the Hague conferences.

It is the practice of International Social Service to encourage countries to become signatories on an ongoing basis when dealing with child abduction wherever ISS holds seminars, conferences, or meetings on this subject. A recent week-long seminar was held in London, England, with 40 staff, representing 27 countries. Currently the general secretariat and the ISS French branch are preparing for a training seminar in Morocco that will involve 20 provincial social workers with their ministry of health, which is the ISS Moroccan correspondent, to discuss the management of international and inter-country cases.

ISS recognizes that a national move toward ratification comes from local interest and concern. We work to sensitize colleagues throughout the world on case handling and help them to meet the requirements of the conventions in day-to-day practice. Services to children need to be strengthened throughout the ISS network. Our training programs are an important aspect of this work.

In cases of international child abduction ISS Canada co-operates with the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, the RCMP Missing Children's Registry, search agencies for missing children such as those represented here today, and social service agencies across Canada such as Children's Aid Societies and family service agencies. When an abducted child is located overseas and social service intervention is needed in order to mediate with the abducting parent or to obtain a report on the child, ISS Canada arranges this service through our international network. Liaison with agencies in Canada and overseas to overcome these barriers of nationality, language, culture, and legal systems is used to help to resolve complex situations.

In all cases of child abduction, combined efforts of the services are directed to the search and quick recovery and return of the abducted child to the custodial parent. While ISS service may be needed in cases of short-term abduction, our service is most frequently requested when there has been a lengthy separation from the custodial parent. ISS Canada will arrange for the initial intervention overseas with the abducting parent and the child and assess the child's situation when this is determined to be the best plan. In these instances when children are located after many years of separation, it is recognized that the child has established a life in the other country and it would not be in the best interests of the child for it to be suddenly uprooted and returned to the custodial parent in Canada.

Issues of language and culture impact on decisions for the child. Mediation services are needed to bridge and help resolve outstanding conflicts between the warring parents. Where mediation efforts fail, it would then be necessary for the parent in Canada to take legal action in the other country to gain access to their child.

ISS strongly recommends that a parent who has experienced the abduction of a child be referred to a local family counselling agency in Canada. The family counsellor or social worker in Canada becomes an essential part of our mediation team. If needed, ISS Canada can assist the parent in Canada to link with a counsellor in their area. ISS Canada works with the family counsellors to see that a social report containing the necessary information is prepared and the relevant documentation is included before we transmit the referral overseas to our network partner.

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Assessments obtained through our network are then shared with the family counsellors for their follow-up and discussion, and information is provided to other agencies as needed.

In instances where a child is deemed to be at risk in the care of the abducting parent and the plan at the time of recovery is for the child to be apprehended and placed temporarily in protective care in a foreign jurisdiction, ISS Canada will see that the social report from Canada is provided to our network partner so that the worker overseas can help interpret this situation to the child and provide meaningful support at the time of apprehension.

If the parent in Canada travels overseas to be reunited with their child, ISS Canada can arrange for supportive services to the parent and interviews with the child to reintroduce the child to the parent and to also help overcome the difficulties related to the language barriers that may be there.

At this time, I'd like to share a case example. It is currently in progress overseas. A Canadian mother has now taken court action overseas. Her daughter was born in Canada in 1983 and abducted by the child's father when the child was one year of age. Members of the father's family in Canada and overseas were contacted; however, the child could not be located. The mother had been in contact with numerous agencies, including the Missing Children's Registry and various search agencies. It was described as “a frantic nine-year search” for her daughter that included extensive news coverage.

The case was referred to ISS Canada in 1993 by the then Department of External Affairs when there was information as to the possible whereabouts of the child overseas. ISS Canada immediately helped the mother get linked with a social worker in her community so that we could receive a detailed social assessment. The social report received a few weeks later stated that the mother wanted to meet and get to know her daughter, and she wanted her daughter to get to know her and have the opportunity to decide whether she wished to establish a relationship with her. She recognized that it would be a slow process, one step at a time.

ISS Canada then requested the co-operation of our overseas office in contacting the Canadian embassy to liaise on the services needed to establish contact with the abducting parent. It was decided to send an invitation letter to the father, asking him to contact our overseas ISS office. The father's lawyer responded, and the social worker at the branch indicated that she would need to speak to the father on a delicate personal matter. The father did not respond and ten days later the social worker invited his lawyer to the office, where she took up the issues of the child's needs for access to both parents and the mother's wishes to be in contact with her daughter.

Co-operation with the father was not forthcoming and the mother was advised that she would need to take legal action in order to gain access, since efforts to engage the father in mediation had not been successful. Considerable time was lost before the mother was able to pursue court action overseas. One of the reasons for the delay may be found in her efforts to raise funds in order to engage the services of a lawyer overseas and plan for other expenses related to the trip.

This case is before the court. Our ISS colleague overseas has been instrumental in arranging for the first meeting between the mother and the child, which was court ordered, and in providing the supportive services that were very much needed.

I would like to see consideration given to providing legal counsel to a parent who is without the financial means to pursue custody or access of his or her child in a foreign court. I believe this option needs to be available to assist the parent in Canada, regardless of whether the country to which the child has been abducted is a signatory to the Hague convention.

The work of ISS on international abduction cases is the same in non-convention countries as it is in convention countries, i.e., to provide social reports on the conditions and circumstances of the child and to maintain communication between the child and the absent parent. Our role is that of a mediator. Our initial task is to obtain necessary information, including the court documents and detailed social evaluations, so that we can have a good understanding of the situation. Our purpose is to prepare the ground for a compromise in the sole interest of the children. It's not in the mandate of ISS to enforce a court's decision.

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It should be noted that it often occurs that a court's decision may have been taken without the objective evaluation of all persons involved. At the International Symposium at The Hague on September 13, 1997, ISS presented a paper on international family dispute mediation. I have a copy of this paper available and would be pleased to leave it with this committee.

Mediation would complement the legal process. We would see a mandatory consultation with a couple, who would be given the chance to consider the benefits of mediation. It would be child-centred and it would focus on the child's well-being and development. It would assist parents in evaluating the impact of prolonged conflict and it would evaluate the needs of the child in respect to each parent. It would plan for the exercise of custody and visitation rights and develop decision-making and problem-solving mechanisms.

Governments need to develop a system of co-operation that would be useful for social evaluation, ensuring personal contacts between the child and the non-custodial parent living in another country. Most important in all of this, the child would not have to choose between parents.

The Hague conference recognizes the expertise of International Social Service in this area. ISS has the ability to set up training programs and promote international mediation. ISS also has the network of social services to develop these mechanisms so as to increase the number of cases that are resolved amicably.

The Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction is the best resource to use in resolving cases of international child abduction. However, after 27 years, only about half of all abduction cases have been resolved under the convention, and this for various reasons.

ISS promotes, where feasible, mediation in international family disputes. International family mediation falls under article 7(c) of the convention, which requires states involved to take the appropriate measures that will ensure the voluntary return of the child or an amiable solution. Nearly half of all cases resolved amiably can be traced to mediation.

Article 9 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child demands that the child maintain ongoing, direct, and personal contacts with each parent. That would also lend support to the need for mediation.

ISS emphasizes the importance of the parent-child relationship and the harmful effects of parental alienation. International child abduction is the most serious violation of a child's rights. Children are the chief victims of child abduction. However, in the end, everyone loses. We need to continue to work diligently to find solutions at the national and international levels to ensure the basic rights of children are protected and preserved.

Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to share this with the committee.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Thank you very much, Ms. Castleman. If you have that document, we'll be more than pleased to have copies circulated to the committee. Thank you.

We'll now move to you, Ms. Susan Armstrong.

[Translation]

Ms. Susan Armstrong: I'll speak in English.

[English]

Dear members of the subcommittee, thank you for your invitation to speak today on the subject of international child abductions.

First I'll give you a very brief history of Le Réseau Enfants Retour, the Missing Children's Network Canada. The organization was founded by me and another woman following the tragic abduction, torture, and murder of a four-year-old boy off the streets of Montreal the day after Hallowe'en 1984. We are a not-for-profit organization and we receive no core funding from any government. I just thought I'd add that.

In the past 12 years the organization has found 149 missing children. Over 80% of our cases are of parental abduction, mostly international child abduction. I've listed all the things we've been able to accomplish in the 12 years, which I'm not going to speak about, except for one or two other points.

We've designed a comprehensive training workshop for police investigators on international child abduction. Why? Because the better trained your police officers.... Parents go into police stations to say, “My ex-spouse has taken off with the children”, and right away they are turned away and told it is a civil matter. It is 1997 and it still happens. We just dealt with a case recently.

With police training, that face is changing. I can speak on behalf of the police forces in Quebec, from the RCMP down to the Montreal Urban Community Police, when I say the change has been astronomical in how many investigators know exactly what to do and how to help these parents immediately.

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We have distributed over one million posters of missing children around the world. They go to China, they go all over the world. They've helped in the recovery of many missing children.

The Missing Children's Network Canada's role in addressing the issue of international child abduction is to bring everyone's attention to the child, as it is our mission that missing children not be forgotten. At this moment, there are many children being held hostage in several foreign countries. Here are the names of some of them: Gloria Cardinal's daughter, Samira Aboumerhi, born February 7, 1984, and abducted to Lebanon for the second time in July 1987; Tamara Al-Khoja Stewart, born in 1986, and abducted to Iraq in 1994; Karim Noah, born June 14, 1989, and abducted to Egypt January 17, 1993; Zubi Shah-Hussain, Zari Shah-Hussain and Shany Shah-Hussain—I will not give their dates of birth—all three abducted to Pakistan for the second time on August 3, 1989; Rita Costa, born March 5, 1989, and Alain Costa, born October 21, 1990, abducted to Lebanon on June 6, 1996; and Nadia Sakar, born March 20, 1991, and abducted to Turkey December 10, 1993. There are many more, but we just took a few examples.

I would like to address the measures that you, the subcommittee, are studying in regard to the first three points. I won't go into the Hague convention because I don't feel it's necessary, but we feel it is imperative that other countries become signatories to the convention. Let everybody join. It would be a much better world.

On the issue of giving family courts the power to seize the passport of one or both parents in cases where there is a likelihood that one parent may take flight to a foreign country, it is extremely important to specify both passports if the parent has dual nationality. It's all well and good to say “Canadian passport”, but if they leave on their foreign passport because they have dual nationality, we haven't done the child any service. If only the Canadian passport is seized, the parent can easily leave the country with the foreign passport. We feel this issue is one that must be addressed by Our Missing Children, as it is also under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Justice. We've experienced this in several cases in which the abducting parent left the country with the foreign passport, and had one for the child or children as well.

In regard to including child abduction and violation of custody orders as extraditable offences between Canada and other countries, we are in complete agreement. As a nation, we must implement measures that actually act as deterrents to parents contemplating an abduction.

I would like to refer to one of our cases. I put his picture in the packages I gave you because I don't want you to forget him. He is a living example of the hell that a child can go through. Today, we've all touched on what children go through when we're talking about their rights being violated.

[Pursuant to a motion passed on February 23, 2016, a portion of this testimony has been deleted. See Minutes of Proceedings for February 23, 2016 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development]

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We don't have these numbers. This knowledge is essential so that we deal with the actual facts when discussing international child abduction and we are cognizant of the true extent of the problem.

In closing, there are two major points we feel must be addressed. As for dealing with countries that have signed the Hague treaty and say they abide by its mandate but that do not respect it, we feel these countries should be denounced. Such a procedure is not that difficult, as we have many Canadian children who are in these signatory countries and for reasons of non-compliance are still being held hostage by the abducting parent.

Furthermore, the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child has also been applied in some cases to no avail. For the signatory countries that do not respect the laws governing the civil aspects of international child abductions under the Hague convention, we as a representative of these children are left confused as to the reasoning and motives behind such non-conformity. Therefore, the question comes to mind as to why these countries sign on. Is it for the best interests of the child or simply for the political image it gives them in the eyes of the world?

Thank you again for this opportunity. We strongly believe these discussions will bear fruit. We look forward to the changes that will help bring all the children back home where they belong.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Thank you for your presentation.

We'll now go to Patrick Bergeron, the director of SEARCH.

Mr. Patrick Bergeron (Director, SEARCH, The Missing Children's Network Canada): If you want, I can answer any questions you have. I'm with Mrs. Armstrong so I don't have anything to add at the moment.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Then we'll start with the questioning from members.

Mr. Mills.

Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Thank you.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for coming. I apologize for being late as well. That seems to be an illness we suffer on the Hill.

Certainly the issue has been brought home to me by the huge number of parents who have contacted our office directly and who I have now had personal contact with. The tragedy and the frustration that these parents are demonstrating has certainly become a very real issue for me and, I know, for all the other members around the table here.

What I've heard is that the lack of profile this issue has is part of that frustration. In other words, they find an agency or they find someone and then they find someone else, and meanwhile time goes by. They don't really know who to turn to. The level of frustration is just unbelievable.

I had a lady call me last week, quite late into the evening; her husband had just called her from the Philippines and advised her that he would not be coming back with the children. What should she do? This is in my own riding. I said, well, we just happen to have this subcommittee that is meeting and we are trying to deal with this problem. That's the kind of thing MPs are hearing right across this country.

I've heard some of the things you think government should do. I think it's very important that this committee ends up with a list of what we must do and what the Foreign Affairs department can do in terms of raising the profile of this situation, assigning specific people to that job. I'd like your comments on that. If there's anyone else who wants to add to the list, which we just added some things to, I'd like that as well.

I'd like to know how long the legal action takes on average. I heard people talk about it back in 1992 and we're still waiting. Is that always the case? Does it always take this long?

Third, I'd like to know how you think we can get more people to sign on to the Hague convention and how we as a country can put that pressure on. I know we can put them on a list. I've suggested we could look at whether they are countries we provide aid to. I don't see too much wrong with tying what we do as a country to their performance internationally.

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I'd like some of your comments on that. I don't think any of us are here in a partisan way. We're here because, as you have all said, the children are the most important issue.

I look forward to questions from other members here so we can build on this understanding. I know we could have a couple of hundred parents here telling us about each of their cases and I know a number of us have heard so many of them. We just have to find a solution to this problem.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Thank you, Mr. Mills.

Ms. Snider.

Ms. Barbara Snider: I agree with you that we really have to educate. Usually when a child goes missing a parent will go first to the local law enforcement agency, and many times that's the officer on the street who's not aware of anything outside of his town or city. Time is lost because many times the police will say there's nothing more they can do if they hear the child is in Spain or wherever.

Many times we get calls from lawyers looking for advice and assistance, which is great, but I tend to think sometimes maybe the lawyers should have that knowledge and know where to go to next. Usually agencies are able to get the parent set in the right direction to Foreign Affairs and back to the local police department to speak with the officers, tell them what's available to them and that this isn't a lost cause.

The one thing I'd like to comment on is that over the fourteen years I have been involved in this, we have probably all attended the same conferences gathering more information, but it is very rare that you see a lawyer or judge at any conference gathering that information.

Mr. Bob Mills: We listened to officials from Foreign Affairs and they indicated some of the frustration they have as well. The best solution we were given was to try to solve it before the abduction actually occurs. That's easy to say, but unfortunately it's missing 300 or 400 kids a year.

Ms. Aggie Castleman: I'd like to reinforce what Barbara has said in terms of the education process. The whole area of international child abduction is far more widespread than we may realize. We refer to them as hidden abductions.

They may be abductions where the child has been taken to another country but the parent here doesn't even know there is such a thing as the Hague convention. The parent may not know what his or her avenues are and eventually that case will go before a foreign court simply as a custody matter. So I don't believe for a minute we have the real statistics on this problem.

It is very important to do anything we can to raise the profile of this particular issue. It's an educational process, because people need to know the long-term effects of abduction when you deny the right of that child to have access to both parents. That's a fundamental right. That's embodied in the conventions and we need to do everything we can to make that happen.

On the issue you raised around how long legal action takes in other countries, that really varies from country to country. In the case of abduction, it's important to look at the various routes that can be taken. Sometimes it's immediately apparent that the parent in Canada needs to take legal action in the other country, or the best plan may be to immediately take diplomatic action and police action in the other country. Sometimes the best course of action is mediation.

The most important thing we can do is have wide consultation on these kinds of cases. We attempt to do that, because there are good resources in place through Foreign Affairs, through the Canadian missions, through the police—the RCMP Missing Children's Registry and INTERPOL and so forth. There is a network of services out there.

• 1625

I emphasize that things start to fall down when it comes back finally to that parent, when we say we know where their child is and then that parent is left to take legal action in the other country. That's a monumental piece of initiative that's needed on the part of that parent at that time. That's when it lands in the parent's lap very clearly.

We really need to address the issue. I'm glad to hear it was raised here. We've certainly raised it through our ISS network before. I'm not alone in raising that issue. It's one that really needs to be addressed, whether it's a Hague country that does not provide the legal aid assistance or whether it's a non-Hague country. As a country we need to be able to provide for our people the assistance needed to take that legal action before a foreign court where the situation merits that it occur.

In some instances they may be able to get on the docket rather quickly; at other times it takes some planning. That's not always so bad either, because it gives the parent here in Canada time to gather their resources and then get ready to go before the foreign court. That can be a very awesome, frightening experience for the parent.

Mr. Bob Mills: Has your experience shown that Foreign Affairs helps with that quite a bit in foreign countries?

Ms. Aggie Castleman: Very much so.

Mr. Bob Mills: In embassies and so on?

Ms. Aggie Castleman: We really do attempt to link up the ISS partner in the other country with the Canadian mission then so that we can help co-ordinate the services.

In the case example that I gave you, it was really important to have a social worker speak the language that child speaks, who can communicate and bridge that gap for that parent over there.

It depends. The legal process in long-term abductions can be counterproductive. It really doesn't matter that you've got a piece of paper that says you have custody in Canada. If that child has been living overseas and because of routine police work they discover this is where that child is, there again it seems to us that a mediation process is what is indicated.

In those cases extradition, prosecution, is not the answer. It may well have some use in the short-term abductions, but not in the long-term ones.

We've actually seen an instance where extradition was put in place. The father returned to Canada to jail. A mother went over who didn't even know the children, who had been abducted 12 years before that. The children were placed with her, a total upset to those children. It made no sense, but it did in fact happen.

So in all of these we need to work on constructive and careful decisions before we just move right in at one level or another.

Ms. Susan Armstrong: The deterrent is the most important thing, and I think that making it an extraditable offence acts as a deterrent to a parent so that we don't have these long-term cases.

Right now I see it as spring cleaning. In these long-term cases, thank God for the four people sitting here, but there are three organizations represented here today, because a lot of those long-term spring cleanings would not.... We add up between us and the other organization that isn't represented today all the active ones that we're working on, but also the long-term ones, kids who have been gone for 27 years, 17 years, 19 years. We reunited a woman with her children whom she hadn't seen in 27 and a half years and she found grandchildren that she didn't know she had, because they were victims of a parental abduction. When she came to our office she said, “Ask me what I haven't tried—the Red Cross, the Salvation Army, the Boy Scouts. I have tried everything.”

What we have to do is look from this day forward for measures that we can implement as a deterrent to parental abductions so we're not going with the horse already out of the barn. Let's keep the horse in the barn and work from there. That's where we, as a Canadian government, can really have the most impact and then still deal with these long-term cases.

• 1630

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Thank you.

We'll move next to Madame Debien.

[Translation]

Ms. Maud Debien (Laval-Est, BQ): Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to our sub-committee and thank you for coming.

Everyone knows there are signatories and non-signatories of the Hague Convention. From our experience and the cases on which you've had to work on, does this convention really protect children from abduction? Which of the signatory countries are the most reluctant and most problematical in child abduction cases? Which of the non-signatory countries are the least cooperative?

Ms. Snider suggested earlier that Canada take this problem up directly with the governments of non-signatory and signatory countries in child abduction cases. You told us you had received a great deal of assistance from the Department of Foreign Affairs, embassies, various programs and the RCMP registries. Based on your experience and in the light of cases you've dealt with, have the Canadian government's efforts been successful and how successful have they been?

My third question was also addressed and concerns the parents who don't have the money. Here people have the opportunity to obtain a considerable amount of assistance, and you're here to testify to that fact, but that isn't the case when they arrive there and have to institute all these legal proceedings at astronomical costs. I believe it was you too, Ms. Snider, who said that these parents should be provided with legal counsel. What form should this assistance take? Would it be, for example, through a government program that would contribute to the cost of legal counsel? What arrangement do you recommend?

We know as well that, before entering Mexico, an adult travelling with a child must provide, among other things, a document certifying that he or she has permission to travel with that child. Do you believe that this measure should be widespread and that we should propose that it be included in the Hague Convention?

My other question is more about parents. Some people that we met told us about parental alienation syndrome. When a child that has been abducted is brought back here, it appears that parents experience parental alienation syndrome. Since this term of yours is a piece of jargon for me, I would like you to clarify exactly what it means and tell me what your organization is doing to help parents in this situation.

The last point I will raise, and which we have also addressed, is abduction threats that one parent often receives from the other, even here in Canada. I would like you to talk to us a little bit about this phenomenon and how you handle this type of case, when the abduction has not occurred but threats are being made.

Those are all my questions for the moment.

Ms. Susan Armstrong: I'll take the liberty of answering your questions, the first of which concerned the countries where we encounter the most problems. The one that first comes to my mind is France. The perfect example is the case of the French woman Catherine Chaine, whom we helped look for her daughter Anne, who was abducted by her father and taken to Israel.

• 1635

Anne came back from Israel on her own, but she was denied assistance when she reported to the French embassy. She therefore reported to Israeli authorities, which gave her a passport to return to France, her home country, to see her mother.

Canada has many problems with France when it comes to bringing back children. We also have problems with non-signatory countries, particularly all the Muslim countries. As you will see when you look at the list I distributed earlier, all those children are from Muslim countries. When we talk about legal aid for these parents, this is a fundamental issue. They should be assigned a lawyer, who could be recommended by the government of the country, and allocated a budget to help them bring back their children. As Barbara said earlier, one mother paid about $20,000. That's standard. We're talking about sums between $20,000 and $50,000. Many parents have had to mortgage their houses three and four times to be able to bring back their children. I very much agree that the treaty provides for a document which parents could obtain and take with them. Many parents ask us what they should do when they cross the border into, for example, the United States. We suggest they obtain a letter, perhaps a legal document or, even better, a notarized document, which would be perfect. That would be a good idea, particularly with Europe right now and for parents who leave Canada and go to France or elsewhere. There's no problem because there isn't really any border as such.

As for parental alienation syndrome, we have an eminent specialist at Douglas Hospital in Montreal, Dr. Luc Morin, an exceptional man. This syndrome is like the Patty Hearst syndrome and the Stockholm syndrome. The child identifies with the kidnapping parent. The parent will tell these children and their mother or father will call the next day, and then the telephone doesn't ring. The parent will tell the child: You see, your father or mother doesn't love you because he or she didn't call. You can imagine the psychological effect on the child. It's very far reaching. There is one specialist working in this field in Montreal and that's Dr. Morin. Patrick Bergeron and I had the opportunity to talk to him. He treats children suffering from this syndrome. So that sums up what this syndrome is.

I can only talk to you about abduction threats in the context of the Missing Children's Network. We have done a lot of prevention work. When parents call us, Patrick advises them. Mothers tell us that their husbands have threatened to abduct their children or the children tell us that their mothers or fathers are going to take them far away. In the case of Anthony Nudo, who was only two years old, he said on a number of occasions in his bath: "Mommy, Daddy's taking me far away." His mother ultimately understood what he meant when his father took him to Italy for seven years. Parents often receive abduction threats. I hope that answers your questions.

Ms. Maud Debien: I would like to hear Ms. Snider's answer to my question, since I asked her to say exactly what she wanted when she said that Canada had to intervene and address the problems directly with the countries concerned, as well as my underlying question as to how successful Canadian government efforts have been, in her view. What should be improved in this area?

[English]

Ms. Barbara Snider: Certainly over the years there has been a lot more assistance available for parents, and I think we would all agree that no one person or one agency can do this job and that we all have to come together and work together.

Our agency uses the Missing Children's Registry and Foreign Affairs probably three to four times a week, and we have found that when it comes to an abducted child Foreign Affairs is always available for us very readily, no matter what time of the night. Certainly children don't just go missing from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., and they are not recovered from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.

• 1640

Sometimes I think possibly there is a need for some education in the consulates, because they may not be familiar with parental abduction. They may not see it as their top priority, whereas we back in Canada with the parent are urgently waiting for some information. But on the whole certainly Foreign Affairs has been able to open the door for us in countries where we never would have been able to go.

This past year the society has actually been communicating with the Iranian embassy. They even voluntarily told us they had issued a passport to one of the parents who had abducted their child. We still have not been able to confirm that he and the child are in Iran, but at least we're speaking and the person I've been working with certainly is open to assisting us. We're not quite sure how far that will go, but we're pleased they are at least listening to our concerns.

Some of the countries we're having some problems with...certainly right now we have a case in Yugoslavia, which is a Hague country. This has been going on now for six months. The mother in Canada is working at three jobs and right now is baking Christmas cookies to sell to fund a lawyer in Yugoslavia. Even though the courts in Yugoslavia have upheld the Canadian order, the father tends just to disappear and no one has really been able to speak with him. The other problem is that some of his relations are in the government service over there and tend to side with the father.

One of the other Hague countries where we always seem to have a bit of difficulty is Mexico. We have had parents who have gone down with a case of whisky. After days and days and days of being told there was nothing anyone could do, this particular mother went down there with a case of Canadian whisky and 24 hours later she was back with her child. They are a Hague signatory country, but unfortunately they tend not to abide.

The Chairman: Mr. Robinson.

Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Thank you very much. We'll have to look at the cultural differences among the appropriate liquors in making national approaches.

I want to thank the witnesses very much for their appearance here today, but also for their ongoing dedication on behalf of missing children. Like Bob Mills and Madame Debien, I have been approached by a number of constituents, particularly since this issue became more public, asking, what can we do?

I really want to thank you for the work you're doing.

In fact, my colleagues have asked a number of the questions I wanted to ask. I have just a couple.

I wonder if you could clarify for the committee what the relationship is between your organizations. When I look at the face of it, I see we have a Missing Children Society of Canada, we have a Missing Children's Network, we have Child Find. Why are there three different organizations that presumably have the same objective? Then ISS itself has...I understand that, because it's really a broader objective, and missing children is one part of it. At least two of the organizations were formed at around the same time, in the mid-1980s, I believe. Why are there three different organizations doing what would appear to be very similar work?

Ms. Susan Armstrong: I think it's like in Montreal, where there's the Ste-Justine Hospital and there's the Montreal Children's Hospital. Each organization has its own specialty...and also where they are located.

What you will find is that often organizations are founded after a tragic event within your community. In our case it was the abduction of a four-year-old boy from the streets of Montreal. I and another woman thought, my God, this is the 1980s; how could this happen? I had no idea what parental abduction or international child abduction was when I founded the organization. I thought all children went missing the way this little boy did. We learned on the job, because there wasn't any.... When the Missing Children's Registry was founded in 1986, Barbara and I and a couple of other key people who have been the dinosaurs in this business actually helped train and work with the people who started up the RCMP registry.

• 1645

We've made an agreement that we'll all work together. Often it happens within regions; you'll find that the parents in your own immediate community will make an appeal to you. And we share information on cases as well. When it comes to international cases, Barbara has sometimes called me to ask if I have a contact in France or somewhere else.

That's how I see it. Barb may have a different perception. Child Find was founded after a little girl was abducted in Calgary. Ours started when the little boy went missing, and for the Missing Children Society it was the same thing. It was all done in response to a tragic event. There are so many children to go around, if you know what I mean, and there are so many provinces. As Barb said, no one agency could handle it all, especially since we don't get any government funding, might I add?

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Svend Robinson: You may.

Ms. Barbara Snider: There are not only three agencies in Canada. I believe there are now six registered agencies that are recognized by the Missing Children's Registry. The U.S. has well over 100. And I think parents should register with as many agencies as possible. I think we all have a different expertise.

Mr. Svend Robinson: That's really what I'm looking at. When constituents come in to see me, they ask who they should go to see, because there are a number of agencies out there, a number of groups out there. And it's not clear to me why I would advise them to see one agency as opposed to another agency, whether there's a sort of geographical difference or.... I know there are historical differences in terms of what led to the creation of the agency, but you're all here today—and I'm not being critical, I hope you understand—and I'm struggling with this because I know the agencies are out there and I can't answer that question for a constituent.

When they ask if they should go to see the Missing Children Society or The Missing Children's Network or Child Find, how do I explain to them what the difference is?

Ms. Barbara Snider: I think you would be very wise to give them the wonderful book that was put out by the foreign affairs department, which has a list of all agencies.

Mr. Svend Robinson: I'm familiar with that book.

Ms. Barbara Snider: Certainly when people register with us, I often ask them if they have registered with Child Find. The society is an investigative agency. We do very little when it comes to the prevention measures, and we don't run out and put up flyers automatically. We have very few flyers on our cases, because if we have information that the child is not in Canada, then it doesn't really serve the purpose to put up flyers. But if that is what that parent wants, I would tell him or her to register with Child Find because they put out great flyers. As we said, we all sort of work together.

Mr. Svend Robinson: I have just a couple of other brief questions.

I was looking at the posters put out by the Missing Children's Network and I noticed that there were some adults on them, like this François Willey, for example, who went missing when he was 30 years old. Again, I'm just—

Ms. Susan Armstrong: Because there are so many missing adults out there who fall through the cracks, if we feel we can make a difference we'll take the poster.

I just reunited a woman with her children who were abducted 30 years ago. She had nowhere to turn. We will take what we call a “courtesy case”. If we feel that we can actually make a difference in that case we will take it, because apart from the police there is absolutely nowhere to turn. No agency looks for missing adults, so we use our expertise to help them.

Mr. Svend Robinson: That's great, because again, I've in fact had constituents who have said they have an adult sister, for example, who just vanished off the face of the earth maybe 10 years ago. They've asked me how to find her. And you're quite right when you say that the RCMP say, “Sorry, we can't do anything about this.” It's good to know that your resource is there as a possibility.

• 1650

The last question I had was on passports. You mentioned folks with dual citizenship and two passports. I'm wondering about the legalities here. Of course we can seize a Canadian passport; it's actually the property of the Government of Canada. Is there any legal problem that you're aware of in seizing a passport from another country if in effect they have dual citizenship?

I'm not clear about the legal position of seizing a document that doesn't belong to the Government of Canada but technically belongs to a foreign government. I don't know if any of your groups have looked at this, but that may be a problem we might have to address.

Ms. Barbara Snider: I'm unable to answer that legal-wise, but certainly we need to work on working with foreign embassies and countries to also alert them. What happens is, they may give up the Canadian passport but then go to their own country.

In some cases the mother will come to us and say, “I told the judge this was going to happen, and he didn't listen”, when perhaps an alert could have been put out. But I don't know if we can take someone else's passport.

Mr. Svend Robinson: That's something we can perhaps ask our researchers to have a look at as well, because it is a serious problem, the use of these other passports.

Thank you very much.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): I think somehow the passport belongs to the country of origin.

Mr. Bob Mills: I had some experience with that in a case altogether different from this one. They were not able to seize the passport of the person. Although there was a police order and everything, and they'd seized the Canadian passport, the person just went to the airport and....

Mr. Svend Robinson: That's my understanding, that there is a problem there.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): That's a good point. Maybe your researchers can follow up on that for us, Mr. Robinson.

Mr. Svend Robinson: Yes.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Ms. St-Jacques.

[Translation]

Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, PC): First, I would like to thank you for your presentation, which gave us a better idea of the work you do and the problems you face.

You listed a few preventive measures against child abduction, and I wondered if there were any other possibilities that could be considered, including training for customs officers so that they can detect abduction cases. That's a possibility that could be considered. Would it be doable?

Ms. Susan Armstrong: Yes, that's already in effect.

Ms. Diane St-Jacques: Ah, it's already in effect?

Ms. Susan Armstrong: Yes, for a number of years now, this kind of training has been offered to customs border services. As a matter of fact, Patrick and I are going to Rigaud on January 23 to give a workshop for customs and immigration officers. This training is already being given and arrests have already been made in some 400 cases, including cases of runaway children and abductions from other countries, not Canada, because the problem is the other way around. This year, our Prime Minister and Bill Clinton signed an agreement for an accord between Canada and the United States under which their customs officers would be sensitized and trained in the same way as our customs and immigration officers.

Ms. Diane St-Jacques: I read an article in Châtelaine magazine dating back to 1992, a fairly long time ago, that reported that a police officer had told Antony Nudo's mother that, if she hadn't left her husband, she would still have her son. You realize that, at that time, police officers were not aware of the problem. Have they now acquired the necessary training to help track down these children and help parents in these kinds of situations?

Ms. Susan Armstrong: Increasingly so, yes. I am in a better position to talk about the Province of Quebec and the Montreal Police Department, where prevention workshops have been given for a number of years now. Many investigators have been trained and we're working closely with them. The list of officers that Patrick and I work with is very long.

The situation was quite different 13 years ago, when I founded the Missing Children's Network. It has changed considerably. That doesn't mean we're living in paradise because a lot of training still has to be given. The Missing Children's Registry section of the RCMP also provides training workshops for police officers. We also made an appeal to the U.S. Department of Justice, where we sent four Quebec representatives to take more intensive training.

• 1655

So, yes, it exists, but it's not always a good idea to do more.

Ms. Diane St-Jacques: To sensitize them to this problem.

Ms. Susan Armstrong: Yes.

Ms. Diane St-Jacques: That's all. Thank you.

[English]

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Thank you. Mr. Bonwick is next.

Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Madam Chair, I have a couple of points to touch on.

Thank you very much for your comments. There are some very, very good points on controls.

I think that's so irrespective of party. This is one of the only committees I sit on where everybody is after the same result, which is to make some recommendations so that these atrocities don't take place any more. As I have three small children, I can't imagine what it would be like to come home one day and find them gone. So it's good to be working with my colleagues on something so important.

On a couple of particulars, I'll go back to education and just carry forward on Madame St-Jacques's comments regarding immigration. Last week, we had a sergeant from the RCMP—I believe it was the RCMP—and we were touching on how we might put better border controls or policies in place to stop people from leaving the country, and really how relatively easy it was for somebody to take a child and leave the country at this point in time. I cite the example of when I will be doing it with my son in a couple of weeks.

As for education, do you see a benefit in our implementing regulations or rules whereby it's mandatory to educate certain people? I'm referring to airport personnel or flight staff from the private sector. You touched on immigration. Certainly there would be police, because again, police forces patrol in and around airports, rail stations, and U.S. border crossings.

I think I could certainly speak about my area. There has not been a lot of education in this particular area with law enforcement agencies. I'm just wondering if you think this might be a good idea. If so, might you have some suggestions as to how to do that?

As for passport collection, that's one I had down as well. I didn't think we could do that.

You touched on deterrents with regard to possible extradition. I question whether that would be of any use whatsoever. Again, from the last meeting, it appears to me as if this typically is a crime of passion. Although it's planned out rather methodically in some cases, the consequences are not something that typically enter into the person's mind.

However, you also touched on some of the examples you gave. I think I heard “the second time” three times. That's very disturbing. That's where I wonder perhaps whether extradition would have eliminated the second time. That's the only place in which I see extradition, or the possibility of extradition, playing a role. So I'd like you to touch on that and clarify whether or not you feel extradition has any significant role.

Just about every example you provided was of a Middle Eastern country. I say that to Madam Armstrong.

Ms. Susan Armstrong: Yes.

Mr. Paul Bonwick: I think every example you provided was in fact from a Middle Eastern country, yet I hear that France is a difficult scenario for us and perhaps one of the biggest ones.

Was that accidental? Did you pick them, or in your findings was the Middle East the greatest contributor or the greatest source of the problem with regard to losing these children and where the people are going?

In the absence of time, I'll just cut it off there.

Ms. Susan Armstrong: If I can respond, first of all, extradition is a deterrent, and I'll tell you why.

The other example I did cite was the case of Anthony Nudo, who was brought to Italy. Before his father took him to Italy, he took him to New York State. What we can gather is that he got across with North American natives—this is the only thing we could figure out—and the Catholic church. This is what has come out.

• 1700

Believe it or not, three weeks after Anthony's abduction, Vincent Nudo was in the office of a criminal lawyer in Montreal, asking him what the implications were if he was to leave the country to go to another country. He asked, if he did go to Italy would it be an extraditable offence?

I have another case of the Sole children who were taken to Egypt. They went to the American school in Cairo. Believe it or not, a Canadian child recognized those two children—it was a child from out west. Unfortunately, somebody didn't do their job right, called the school directly and alerted dad that we were on to him. He went to North Yemen and kept the children there for several years.

But he did call a criminal lawyer in Montreal—and both these lawyers spoke to me personally—to ask whether it was it an extraditable offence if he was to send his daughter from Egypt to England to private school, which he did. Could they then take the child out of England and send her back to Canada.

He finally ended up sending her to New Hampshire. Lo and behold, because we had the Montreal police put her name on NCIC as a missing person, because a package had come through from North Yemen and it was being checked for drugs, not for a missing child, she came up in the computer as a missing child. That's how we were able to find one of the children.

I think that extradition is something to look at, because in all three of those situations the parents asked if it was an extraditable offence.

As far as training goes, one thing I think we all have to be aware of is that when a parent has visitation, often the abduction takes place when the parent has those visiting rights. Within that parameter, the weekend or one week or whatever, then they take off with the child and go to their destination country, wherever it is. There is no question brought up.

If it was the law that we could do border alerts before a parent left the country.... But, you see, that is only on a presumption, which we cannot do. You have to have actually broken the law before a border alert can be put in place.

Yes, we have a problem with Middle Eastern countries. In other words, when the children go there they never come home. I know of three cases involving 19-, 20- and 21-year-old women, who I had the opportunity of meeting. One was a girl who walked out of Tunisia with her father, convinced him to take her to Paris to celebrate a birthday party, called the Canadian embassy and then pretended that she had to go up to her bedroom to get the birthday present for this family friend, called a taxi, asked to be taken to the Canadian embassy, which flew her back home to Montreal.

This is a girl who had been abducted by her father to Tunisia at the age of 11. Eight years later at 19, she came home on her own. I had the wonderful pleasure of meeting her and two other girls who did the same thing.

I think the will is there even on behalf of the children. As Aggie was saying, they have the right to both parents. It's a hard line to draw.

I hope I answered most of your questions. I didn't take enough notes to answer every one that was asked.

Ms. Barbara Snider: I disagree a little bit with Susan in regard to extradition, because extradition is dealing with the parent only. You could have a situation where the parent has returned to Canada and the child is left behind in the care of a relative, which has happened. The searching parent still has to go to that country and fight in the courts to get the child returned to Canada.

Also, if you speak to searching parents, they want the child back, but they don't want the spouse. They would prefer that they stay wherever they are, because if they are brought back, in the Canadian court system I think the most we have ever seen was a 12-month jail period. Most times, as in the case I spoke about, which took place almost a year ago.... This is now coming up into court. They feel that he is probably not going to get a jail sentence. What they are going to ask for is probation and restitution back to the Missing Children Society, which probably won't happen.

• 1705

In the meantime, this father is getting visitation with his son. He still has no real ties to Canada, his family still is in Morocco, he has no job, he's living off the welfare system, and I'm sure that if his family supported him he'd be on a plane with the child again back to Morocco. There's always that threat of another abduction happening.

Mr. Paul Bonwick: Thank you.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Ms. Bradshaw.

[Translation]

Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw (Moncton, Lib.): First of all, congratulations.

[English]

Congratulations. I've worked at a non-profit agency for 30 years with abused children, and you amaze me how you don't seem frustrated.

If I've identified three of the things we could help you with, with the lawyer, legally.... We spoke about it the last time we met, and it's a concern for me. I see another area where the rich, if they have the money, will get the lawyer, will have the trips, can buy the whiskey or whatever. Again, it's the poor lady who's doing her Christmas cookies. And some don't know how to do Christmas cookies, and their children are missing.

I'd like to know if you have ever sat together as a group and come up with a formula that we could use legally.... Say the four of you, plus our RCMP friend who was with us the last time, sat down and said, okay, it's a problem; how would we see that done nationally? If the four of you can't come up with how we could do it and how you would recommend we present it to the department, then we certainly can't do it. You could also put a price tag on it for us, because in today's society we look at money.

If you could sit down.... We discussed this the last time we met and we're discussing it again, and I know it's a problem.

The other one is the mediator. You spoke about the mediator, and I think you've all agreed that it's important. Again, how would you see that process working and at what cost? Again, send us this, because this is why we're here. We're sitting on this committee—and Mr. Mills has been very involved—because it's an issue we care about. I don't want to sit on the standing committee and not be able to help people like you.

I think we should have brought in parents. Maybe we should have brought in on the Hill the 200 parents and had a whole day on it on CPAC, because they're the ones we're really here about.

For the mediation, too...and if you don't know who to send it to, I'll leave you—

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Madame Bradshaw, we're having some parents next week—not 200 parents but....

Mrs. Claudette Bradshaw: Excellent, great. Well, I would have brought the 200 parents and paid for it.

I listen to you—and we discussed this last week with the staff—and at least the kids I was working with who were abused were there and we were able to do something. I don't know how you do what you do. I admire you.

The other one is the educational part. My big thing with poverty and abuse was always at the university level. It was always: we should be teaching it to the deans; we should be speaking to the deans. When you said you had a conference and nobody showed up, maybe the invitation should go to the deans of the different departments at the university campuses across this country so they can become aware that we need to teach our professionals. That's where I'm putting my frustration after 30 years, right back into the universities' lap, because the professionals are educated through them.

Those are the three things I've identified that you've given to me.

[Translation]

Once again, my congratulations and admiration regarding your work. I would ask you please to send me your ideas and concrete suggestions, either directly or through the committee, stating what it would cost to implement them. That would undoubtedly be very useful to us and we would greatly appreciate it. Thank you very much.

[English]

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Thank you, Madame Bradshaw.

I think at this point in time I'll take the opportunity to thank the witnesses for coming and ask if there is anything further that you would like to address before we bring this meeting to a close.

Ms. Castleman.

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Ms. Aggie Castleman: I think we should take the opportunity that has been afforded to us to try to bring together our respective groups, address this problem collectively and come back to share with you some of the concerns. We have a lot of collective experience here and should work together.

We hope these presentations to you today will have given you some of that perspective from us, but perhaps there's more we could do together to help the work of your committee along.

The Acting Chair (Ms. Jean Augustine): Thank you.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for appearing. Thank you, members, for your attention.

The meeting stands adjourned to the call of the chair.