[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Monday, March 11, 1996
.1541 
[English]
The Clerk of the Committee: Honourable members, I see a quorum.
Pursuant to Standing Orders 104(1), 106(1), 106(2), and 116, the first order of business is to elect a chair. I am ready to receive motions to that effect.
Mr. Dromisky (Thunder Bay - Atikokan): Madam Clerk, I wish to accept this responsibility and honour of nominating our former chairperson of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, Eleni Bakopanos.
Motion agreed to
The Clerk: I declare Eleni Bakopanos duly elected and invite her to take the chair.
The Chair: May I just say thank you very much to everyone. I appreciate your confidence in me. Thank you.
I recognize Mr. Mayfield.
Mr. Mayfield (Cariboo - Chilcotin): I move that Val Meredith be the vice-chair for the opposition.
The Chair: Madam Gagnon.
[Translation]
Mrs. Gagnon (Quebec): I move that Mr. Osvaldo Nunez be elected Vice-Chair.
[English]
The Chair: We have to take each motion separately, if I'm not mistaken. So we'll take the first motion on the floor, which is Ms Meredith's. Do we have a show of hands?
Mr. Mayfield: I'd like a recorded vote.
The Chair: All right. It is moved by Mr. Mayfield that Ms Meredith be the vice-chair for the opposition.
Motion negatived: nays 8; yeas 2
The Chair: I declare the motion defeated.
Madam Gagnon.
[Translation]
Mrs. Gagnon: I nominate Mr. Osvaldo to be Vice-Chair.
The Chair: Mrs. Gagnon moves that Mr. Nunez be appointed Vice-Chair for the opposition. All those in agreement?
[English]
Ms Meredith (Surrey - White Rock - South Langley): Could we have a recorded vote, please.
The Chair: Certainly.
Motion agreed to: yeas 8; nays 2
The Chair: I declare the motion carried. Mr. Nunez will be the vice-chair of the committee for the opposition.
Congratulations, Mr. Nunez.
.1545
Now I will receive motions to elect a first vice-chair from the government.
Mr. Collins (Souris - Moose Mountain): I have the pleasure of moving that Stan Dromisky be the vice-chair of the committee.
Motion agreed to
The Chair: Congratulations, Stan.
We will move to item three on the agenda, which is the appointment of a subcommittee on agenda and procedure. Is it agreed that the chair, the two vice-chairs, Maria Minna, and one more person shall compose the subcommittee on agenda and procedure?
Ms Meredith, do you agree to be a member of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure?
Ms Meredith: Yes.
Motion agreed to
The Chair: Item four is that the committee print its Minutes of Proceedings as established by the Board of Internal Economy.
[Translation]
Mr. Nunez (Bourassa): What is the number now established by the Board of Internal Economy?
The Clerk: Most issues are now published on PubNet. I think I only get ten copies and I'm almost sure that number has not changed.
The Chair: Is that ok, Mr. Nunez?
Mr. Nunez: Yes.
The Chair: Thank you.
[English]
Motion agreed to
The Chair: Item five is that the committee retain the services of one or more research officers from the Library of Parliament, as needed, to assist the committee in its works, at the discretion of the chairperson.
Motion agreed to
The Chair: Item six is that 48 hours' notice be given to the members of the committee before any substantive motion is considered by the committee, unless the committee gives consent otherwise. That was the rule before.
[Translation]
Mr. Nunez: We're going to vote against this motion because in the past it did pose some problems for us especially that we were informed of certain facts only at the last minute. Either because there was a break for two weeks or because we had adjourned for the summer it was impossible for us to deal with important motions because of the 24 hours' notice.
The Chair: Forty-eight hours.
Mr. Nunez: Forty-eight hours, that's even worse. So we're going to vote against this motion.
[English]
The Chair: Are there any other comments?
Are we ready to vote? Do you want a recorded vote then?
[Translation]
Mr. Nunez: Yes.
[English]
Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 2
The Chair: Item seven is that the clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute in their official language documents received from the public and that the clerk of the committee ensure that such documents are translated and distributed as promptly as possible. Agreed?
[Translation]
Mr. Nunez, no?
Mr. Nunez: I'll explain.
The Chair: In both official languages, no?
.1550
Mr. Nunez: That's it. In the past, documents were sometimes distributed in one official language only and in the other language some time later. That caused problems for us. So we're asking that no document be distributed before it's been translated in both official languages. That is the Bloc Québécois' position.
The Chair: Does that include all briefs or presentations from witnesses?
Mr. Nunez: Yes, all documents.
[English]
The Chair: Any other comments? Mr. Collins.
Mr. Collins: Madam Chair, you can get these witnesses showing up - I mean no disrespect to the witnesses - and because it's a new and rather unknown thing for them they come with a document and it could be in English. I can understand Mr. Nunez's concern, but I don't think we should sit around for an hour while we have a fireside chat. We want to get that document transcribed as quickly as we can. But to hold up the committee, and here this this person arives....
Mr. Nunez: You know who will come, and several days before.
[Translation]
The Chair: If I understand correctly, it takes five days to get a document translated.
[English]
Approximately five days.
The Clerk: Depending on the length.
The Chair: And we do have simultaneous translation when there is a witness, so we are getting immediate translation of their testimony.
Mr. Dromisky: I agree with you, Madam Chairperson. I think with the ability and the knowledge you have and we all possess regarding the issues, we can take into consideration what is being presented by the witnesses, and sometimes we have to make a decision, or judgment, right at that moment. It's not always possible for all witnesses, as we have witnessed in the past in all the committees I have sat on, to have a translation prepared for us in advance, simply because it's not possible in the places they come from. Those facilities or the expertise are not available in their communities. They can't sit here for three or four days, paying for hotel rooms, waiting until a translation is done. I think we have to be flexible in this respect.
We have this problem, Mr. Nunez, both in English and in French. I can appreciate where you're coming from.
The Chair: I'd also like to put on the record that any document that has been prepared by our research staff in the past has always been in the two languages, and will continue to be so, and everyone gets it at the same time. So I think we can agree on that.
Can we move on, then? Are we in agreement?
Mr. Nunez: We want a vote on this.
The Chair: Okay. Can I take for granted that it's the same recorded vote as before?
[Translation]
Mrs. Gagnon: Could we move an amendment?
The Chair: You want to move an amendment?
Mr. Nunez: Yes.
Mrs. Gagnon: I'd like to move an amendment because I don't feel quite comfortable voting against this motion.
The Chair: Fine.
Mrs. Gagnon: We'd like it to be specified that if a document is distributed it must be distributed at the same time to everyone in both official languages.
The Chair: We don't have any consensus on that Mrs. Gagnon. We said the documents...
Mrs. Gagnon: That's the amendment we want to move.
[English]
Mr. Calder (Wellington - Grey - Dufferin - Simcoe): Madam Chair, we went through the same situation in the Standing Committee on Agriculture. I could suggest an amendment to my colleague across the floor. It would read something similar to this: that the clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute translated documents as promptly as possible.
The Chair: Mr. Calder, I think the gist of their motion is that they should not be distributed unless they are in both official languages.
Mr. Calder: That's basically what I'm saying. It's a translated document.
The Chair: I don't think they're agreeing with you.
Mr. Calder: Okay.
[Translation]
The Chair: Would you like to move your motion, Mrs. Gagnon? The clerk tells me that adopting the motion would have the same effect and we wouldn't have to move an amendment.
Mrs. Gagnon: It would have the same effect, but we want to amend it to make sure we will be treated just like the others. This is not a vote against translation. However, if our amendment were to pass, if we had to have an original document translated, the members from the Bloc Québécois would then get the translated document at the same time as the other members. That's what we're looking for. I'm a bit uncomfortable voting against this motion but if you read the amendment, you'll see there is a difference.
.1555
The Chair: I understand your position and if everyone is in agreement, I'm ready to hear an amendment.
[English]
Are we agreed? In order to oblige the Bloc, would you all agree that we can vote based on the amendment that the Bloc is preparing?
Mr. Dromisky: I think it is a logistical thing that can best be handled by the clerk. I have no idea of how the system works once the doors are closed and what the clerks and the secretaries and everyone else does, but the final outcome is that you want both documents to be there, in English and in French, at the same time.
If that is humanly possible, in terms of witnesses and so forth, then I gladly support it. Then it only makes common sense. But if it's not possible - and there always are circumstances in which it might not be possible - then we have to take that into consideration.
Maybe we should hear from the clerk of the committee.
The Chair: The clerk of the committee has already stated that it takes about five days to get a translation.
I have already put on the record that we have simultaneous translation available, no matter what.
Mr. Dromisky: All right. Fine.
The Chair: What I'm asking is if the members would agree to Madame Gagnon presenting an amendment to this resolution, in order not to embarrass her by voting against it. It's a slightly sideways manner of dealing with the procedure, but if everybody is agreed....
Mr. Collins: What we have to do then is to vote on the amendment and then go back to the motion, either as amended or as not amended. The process is simple. We're going to turn one down and approve the other.
I'm not going to vote for that amendment. As Mr. Dromisky has said, there are logistics.
I understand their problem, but in the process of going through we wouldn't want to be holding up some hearings because of some technicality that occurred.
Let me assure you that most people coming from the west don't have those translators there, so they just come and make the presentation. Then, through the good auspices of our technical staff here, they go through the translation.
The Chair: I'm prepared to proceed and vote
[Translation]
On your amendment Mrs. Gagnon.
Mrs. Gagnon: I move that the documents be simultaneously distributed in both languages.
The Chair: «Simultaneously» is the word to be added. [English]
[English]
So we're voting on a motion that says that no document will be distributed unless it is in both official languages - si je comprends bien - at the same time.
Amendment negatived
The Chair: Going to the main motion, do we agree that documents will be distributed?
We will do our best, Madame Gagnon and Mr. Nunez, to have them in both official languages.
[Translation]
You're not voting against. Do you want to abstain?
Mrs. Gagnon: We could abstain.
The Chair: We can simply say that it's agreed to without mentioning...
Motion agreed to
[English]
The Chair: Item eight on the agenda is that, at the discretion of the chairperson, reasonable travelling expenses, as per the regulations established by the Board of Internal Economy, be paid to witnesses invited to appear before the committee and that payment of these expenses be limited to two representatives per organization.
Motion agreed to
The Chair: Item nine is (a) that in camera meetings be transcribed and that the transcription be kept with the clerk of the committee for consultation by the members of the committee, and (b) that each committee member be allowed to have one staff person present during in camera meetings, unless the committee decides otherwise.
[Translation]
Mr. Nunez: About paragraph (a), I'd like to have access to the transcripts of the in camera meetings, but I don't have time to go consult them at the clerk's office and read them there. That can take up to an hour, sometimes. I'd like to move an amendment allowing a member to borrow those documents for at least 24 hours to be able to read them and then give them back to the clerk.
.1600
In reality, no one has access to those documents. The clerk could tell us how many members have gone to her office to read them. Personally, I don't think anyone has gone there. In any case, I don't have time to go.
[English]
The Chair: Do you want to comment on this?
The Clerk: I would be quite happy to interpret that motion as when a member would like to look at it I will make a photocopy and send it to them. I have no problem with that.
Mr. Nunez: Okay.
Mr. Collins: Excuse me for my frailty of thought on this process, but why are you doing it in camera and then starting to move documents around? It seems to me that you're in camera to discuss it. If it's going to be a matter of sending it over to somebody and somebody else....
Mr. Nunez: Only to the members.
Mr. Collins: But even at that.... I'm just saying I have a little problem with the process.
The Clerk: Before this motion, we used to distribute copies of the blues or the transcripts to members. These would be unedited, which is what I would get now. We used to distribute them to all the members of the committee on a regular basis, but not to anyone else.
The Chair: They were distributed?
The Clerk: Yes.
Ms Meredith: I was just going to say that was how it was handled when I sat on the Standing Committee of Justice and Legal Affairs. If you had a request, you got the blues, the raw copy of the meeting, and there was no interpretation done or anything else. It was made available to you upon request.
The Chair: Are we agreed that if a member requests the in camera proceedings, they will have access to the blues?
Mr. Collins: If that's the process they've had.
Amendment agreed to
The Chair: Order in Council appointments of persons, Standing Order 111(4): whenever an Order in Council appointment or a certificate of nomination for appointment is referred to the committee, the clerk shall obtain and circulate to each member of the committee a copy of the résumé of each appointee.
Mr. Nunez.
[Translation]
Mr. Nunez: I agree with that proposal, but I'd like to know when you got hold of the appointments and when you will inform the members of the committee about them. I'm very much interested in appointments to the IRB.
The Chair: Have we received them already?
Mr. Nunez: Yes.
[English]
The Chair: Have we received an Order in Council?
[Translation]
The Clerk: Not yet.
Mr. Nunez: Sometimes you have to ask for them. They don't send them automatically. Did you request them?
The Chair: Mr. Nunez,I don't think there have been any appointments.
Mr. Nunez: I think there have been.
The Chair: Since December?
Mr. Nunez: Yes.
The Chair: We'll check.
[English]
Motion agreed to
The Chair: Reduced quorum: that pursuant to Standing Order 118(2), the chair be authorized to hold meetings in order to receive and authorize the publishing of evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that at least one member of each party be present.
Motion agreed to
The Chair: We are adjourned.