HUMA Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, May 13, 2003

º

1610

The Chair (Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.))

Ms. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ)

The Chair

The Honourable Claudette Bradshaw (Minister of Labour)

º

1615

º

1620

º

1625

The Chair

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

The Chair

The Honourable Ethel Blondin-Andrew (Secretary of State (Children and Youth))

º

1630

The Chair

Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Canadian Alliance)

º

1635

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

The Chair

Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton Centre-East, Canadian Alliance)

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

º

1640

Mr. Peter Goldring

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

The Chair

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, Lib.)

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

º

1645

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

The Chair

Ms. Monique Guay

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

º

1650

Ms. Monique Guay

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

º

1655

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.)

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

»

1700

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

The Chair

Mr. Peter Goldring

»

1705

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Mr. Peter Goldring

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Mr. Peter Goldring

The Chair

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

The Chair

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

The Chair

Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, Lib.)

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

»

1710

Ms. Diane St-Jacques

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Ms. Diane St-Jacques

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Ms. Diane St-Jacques

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Ms. Diane St-Jacques

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Ms. Diane St-Jacques

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Ms. Diane St-Jacques

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Ms. Diane St-Jacques

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Ms. Diane St-Jacques

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP)

»

1715

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies

»

1720

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

The Chair

Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.)

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Mr. John Finlay

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

Mr. John Finlay

»

1725

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

The Chair

Ms. Monique Guay

Hon. Claudette Bradshaw

»

1730

The Chair

Mr. Larry Spencer (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Canadian Alliance)

Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew

The Chair

---

CANADA

Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

---

NUMBER 030

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

---

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, May 13, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

º  (1610)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.)): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the 30th meeting of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

    Pursuant to the order of the House, we are looking at estimates under Human Resources Development. We have with us today the Honourable Claudette Bradshaw, Minister of Labour. We'll be joined very shortly by the Honourable Ethel Blondin-Andrew, the Secretary of State for Children and Youth.

    We're a little late starting today, which is going to compress our time. I'm going to ask our witnesses to do everything in their power to keep their opening comments brief. As it is, we're only going to have a very short question and answer period.

    Minister Bradshaw, I'm going to start with you.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Madam Chairman, is it possible to extend the meeting? It makes no sense to hear from two ministers between now and 5 p.m.

[English]

    The Chair: We will go until 5:30. Another committee will be meeting at 5:30.

    Madame Bradshaw.

    The Honourable Claudette Bradshaw (Minister of Labour): Merci. Thank you, Madam Chair and committee members.

    The Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities has a reputation for addressing difficult issues. In fact, your ability and your willingness to tackle complex questions have been indispensable, as we all work together to address the challenges facing Canada's workforce.

    For over 100 years now, Canada's labour program has worked with unions, employees, and employers to better the lives of working Canadians. In this age of technology and globalization, new workplace issues continue to emerge. I feel strongly that our workplace policies must grow to reflect these new realities.

    Let me start by talking about some of the achievements of the labour program and our plans for progress in the coming year.

    The Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service has maintained its impressive record of dispute resolution, resolving 91% of the collective bargaining disputes without a work stoppage. Although there was a small number of lengthy work stoppages, notably in the province of Quebec involving Sécur and Vidéotron, most of these have been resolved with the capable assistance of FMCS officers.

    The FMCS has also increased its efforts to prevent disputes by working with unions and employers during the closed term of their agreement to build more constructive workplace relationships. Virtually all of the clients who have taken advantage of this service report a high degree of satisfaction with the outcomes achieved.

º  (1615)  

[Translation]

    The Labour Program not only promotes the rights and well-being of workers at home. We also strive to improve the working conditions and living standards of workers around the globe. We do this through our work with the Organization of American States and with our participation in the International Labour Organization.

    On the world agenda, I have had the privilege of chairing the 12th Inter-American Conference of Ministers of Labour since October 2001. The objective of this Conference is to find ways for improving the conditions of working people throughout the Americas. Globalization has made the pursuit of this objective more important than ever before.

    We have also been diligent in implementing the Conference's ambitious Plan of Action. Under the Plan, two working groups were established to study the growing impact of globalization on labour and to strengthen the capacity of labour ministries in the region. Canada also hosted a successful workshop on the new employment relationships in the new economy and overcoming the digital divide.

    Moreover, we were able to help the small economies of Central America and the Caribbean to participate in all Conference events. In the months ahead, we will share our experiences as we prepare to hand over the presidency to Brazil.

    We are also building on our policy of seeking labour cooperation agreements when free trade agreements are signed. We now have labour agreements in place with Mexico and the United States, Chile and Costa Rica, and a Memorandum of Understanding with Brazil. Furthermore, we are currently in negotiations to reach labour agreements with the Central American countries of El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua as well as with Singapore. Moreover, we are also seeking agreements with the Dominican Republic, the Andean community and 14 countries of the Caribbean.

    The Advisory Committee on International Labour Affairs is further proof of our commitment to international labour issues. This Committee, composed of representatives from business and labour, will focus on emerging issues, such as the social dimensions of globalization.

[English]

    Closer to home, we co-hosted a very successful meeting of federal, provincial, and territorial ministers of labour earlier this year. We are now working on several key areas the ministers identified for action. They include promoting occupational health and safety for youth, labour standards under international agreements, and meeting the challenges of the changing workplace.

    We are strongly committed to protecting the rights of workers in Canada and around the world. Federal-provincial-territorial partnerships and cooperation are the key to success in reaching these goals. That's why we are working together through organizations like the Canadian Association of Administrators of Labour Legislation.

    As part of these efforts, the Strategic Policy and International Labour Affairs Directorate is researching such urgent issues as work-life balance and aging in the workplace. I recently released the report called “Voices of Canadians: Seeking Work-Life Balance”. This subject clearly struck a cord with Canadians. People care deeply about their jobs and their families, and this government is listening. We are committed to supporting working parents and encouraging family-friendly workplaces. We also created a website devoted exclusively to the issue of work-life balance.

    I also wish to acknowledge the important contribution of the Workplace Information Directorate, which provides a wide array of information to our clients on industrial relations. We cannot overlook the value of this information in promoting better research and workplace practices in Canada.

    Let me take a few moments to talk about the Operations Directorate, which helps to implement occupational health and safety and labour standards under the Canada Labour Code. We recognize there is a growing need to make employees and employers more aware of the rights and obligations to improve health and safety on the job. To this end, we are building productive partnerships with key sectors, such as the trucking industry. We are especially concerned about reducing the incidents of injury and accidents among young workers, as reflected last week during North American occupational health and safety week, The theme this year was on preparing young workers for the future.

    One of the pieces of legislation the labour program is responsible for is the Employment Equity Act. This act is important to me for two reasons. First, it reflects the fundamental Canadian value of fairness in the workplace. Second, we need to better use all our human resources, especially as we face looming skills shortages in our labour markets. This means we must be more inclusive. It means we must open more doors for aboriginal people, the fastest-growing segment of our workforce. We need to do more to help persons with disabilities achieve success, as well as women and members of visible minorities.

    This committee recently reviewed the Employment Equity Act and made 29 recommendations to make improvements in this area. Let me assure you that we are moving ahead to fine-tune our legislation and address these important recommendations.

    We are also working closely with federal departments and agencies to encourage a sphere of inclusiveness in all our policies and programs. As Minister of Labour, I have embraced employment equity and made a personal commitment to make Canada's workplaces fairer and more inclusive.

    I would like to underline that our close collaboration with this committee is not limited to the issue of employment equity. I take the interests of all committee members very seriously, and I have heard your concerns in other areas. For example, I made a commitment to study the issue of protecting pregnant and nursing women, and we have done that. The report is currently being formalized, and I hope I can share it with you in the near future.

    We have also taken seriously your sustained interest in reducing violence in the workforce, and I am expecting a proposed regulation from our tri-national working group on this issue early next year. I would like to stress that I remain committed to hearing your views, and will continue to take a proactive and prompt approach in my response.

º  (1620)  

[Translation]

    I believe that Canadians should not have to choose between their jobs and caring for their family during a serious medical crisis. That's why the Government of Canada made a commitment to change programs so that Canadians can care for a gravely ill or dying child, parent or spouse without putting their job in jeopardy.

    Amendments will be made to the Canada Labour Code to provide eight weeks' job protection for federal employees who are caring for a seriously ill family member.

    We are also awaiting the report of a task force that is conducting a comprehensive review of Canada's federal pay equity legislation. The Government's position on pay equity is clear. We must ensure that employers respect the rights of individuals and understand that men and women must be paid the same for performing work of equal value.

    After a successful pilot project with the banking industry, the Labour Program is offering alternative dispute resolution for Labour Standards, Part III of the Canada Labour Code, in all regions and to all industries, with positive results. Two new projects have been launched to use alternative dispute resolution for complaints in the road transportation industry and to examine complaints originating from First Nations.

    Canada's workers are the backbone of our economic strength and national security. And this government is committed to ensuring that our workers remain the strongest, safest and best skilled in the world.

    That's why my mission as Labour Minister is to revitalize our work force to reflect the new realities of the 21st century.

    Madam Chair, I will now skip ahead a few pages. Our staff has been working very hard and they do so much that I'm pleased to have this opportunity to share our activities with you. I don't often have the chance as Labour Minister to talk to you about our programs. And you thought labour disputes were are only focus.

º  (1625)  

[English]

    So in coming before the committee--I know we're in a rush today because there are a lot of things we do with the labour program--I would like to take this occasion to say to the staff how proud I am of all the work they do.

    I will jump some pages because I know we're in a rush, but I would like to say to you--

    The Chair: I suspect that a lot of the material that's covered in your speech will come out through the questions.

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: I will just say, to finish, that I am also in charge of homelessness, and we have received more funding. We hope to have all the provinces signed by the end of the summer. The provinces are happy with how the homelessness file is going, as well as the FCM, so I want to congratulate my staff at the Homelessness Secretariat and all the volunteer sectors in the community organizations for the wonderful work they've done across the country in the last three years.

    Thank you very much.

    The Chair: Madam Bradshaw, we will let everyone know that copies of your full speaking notes are available, and we will circulate them widely.

    Madam Blondin-Andrew.

    The Honourable Ethel Blondin-Andrew (Secretary of State (Children and Youth)): Thank you very much.

    I'm very pleased to have this opportunity to speak to you today about the issues that are very much a concern to us all. My work as Secretary of State for Children and Youth brings all of these issues to the forefront for myself and the people I work with. I take a special interest, especially as a former educator.

    As you know, budget 2003 made a clear commitment to ensure that all Canadian children get the best possible start in life. It announced important new initiatives that build wisely on past achievements. These measures will help numerous children in Canada today who start life with far fewer economic and social advantages than others. The most vulnerable of these are aboriginal children. Today I will be highlighting for you new and enhanced initiatives that are helping us to close the gap in life chances between aboriginal and non-aboriginal children.

    We know that we have to do more to assist low-income families, whether they are aboriginal or non-aboriginal. Budget 2003 provides this assistance through its additional investment of $965 million a year in the national child benefit by 2007. This means a family with two children will receive maximum child benefits of $6,259, an increase of almost 150% since 1997. The federal government will continue to work with the provinces, territories, and first nations to ensure that additional federal investments benefit all low-income families with children.

    Another priority addressed in the budget deals with quality child care and early learning services, and $900 million over the next five years was set aside in the budget to support new investments by provincial and territorial governments in early learning and child care.

    On March 13, Minister Stewart reached an agreement with the provinces and territories on a framework for improving access to affordable, quality, regulated early learning and child care programs. This great breakthrough builds on another major commitment: the September 2000 Early Childhood Development Agreement between the federal, provincial, and territorial governments. As of this year, we are transferring a total of $500 million annually to provincial and territorial governments for investments in early childhood development under this initiative.

    Budget 2003 also provided $35 million over five years to build on federal early learning and child care programs for first nations children, primarily on reserves.

    I also want to draw your attention to the government's announcement last October of a strategy to expand and improve early childhood development programs and services for aboriginal children. This initiative, which commits $320 million over five years, complements the federal-provincial-territorial ECD agreement.

    The ECD strategy for first nations and other aboriginal children will enable us to expand the aboriginal head start program, both on and off reserve, and to enhance and expand the number of child care spaces under the first nations and Inuit child care initiative.

    I want to emphasize that the head start program is a phenomenal success. This program is doing wonderful things for children and families, and is helping to build healthy communities. The $320 million investment under the ECD strategy also allows us to intensify our efforts to address fetal alcohol syndrome/fetal alcohol effects. As you may know, budget 2001 set aside $15 million a year to address FAS/FAE.

    I feel very passionate, as does my colleague, Madam Bradshaw, about this disability. FAS children come into the world with a distinct disadvantage. From antisocial behaviour to developmental delays and learning disabilities, these children face profound problems and challenges. But FAS is completely preventable, if we can get to people early enough, so the federal investment to help address this disability is of enormous importance to aboriginal communities.

    We have discovered that FAS/FAE is best addressed through the integrated and coordinated efforts of all players: the federal, provincial, and territorial governments; aboriginal organizations; parent support groups; and community members. I recently attended a best start conference in Toronto that very much reinforced for me the great potential power behind this kind of collaboration. A strong cross-Canada partnership will support children, youth, and families coping with FAS and its effects, and help develop a lasting solution to this preventable disability.

º  (1630)  

    Another important initiative in budget 2003 that I want to highlight is the $50 million set aside over each year for a new child disability benefit. We recognize that families raising children with severe disabilities face additional expenses that drain their income and reduce their quality of life. With this new investment, low- and moderate-income families will receive up to an additional $1,600 a year. This new tax supplement will help ensure that low-income children with disabilities overcome this disadvantage.

    To conclude, I would like to express my gratitude to the standing committee and the subcommittee for their work on aboriginal children. The nurturing of aboriginal children and youth so they can achieve their incredible potential has been central to my life's work, as well as that of many of my colleagues in the House of Commons and people across the country. In my role as Secretary of State for Children and Youth, I will continue to strive, together with my colleagues, to make a real difference in the lives of these aboriginal children and young adults.

    Thank you.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    I think we can probably accommodate seven-minute rounds, but I'm going to be really tough. I will start to wave at about six minutes, and that includes the question and the response.

    Mr. Gouk.

    Mr. Jim Gouk (Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, Canadian Alliance): Thank you.

    Given that the Minister of Labour said she'd like to talk quite a bit more, and we certainly have a number of things we'd like to discuss with her, perhaps she could come back again some time in the very near future.

    I'm going to limit myself to three questions. I'd like to give them to you and let you respond.

    The first deals with essential services. There are two big groups going through that. NAV CANADA, the air controllers' association, is going through it now; and Marine Atlantic will do that later this month.

    Given that whatever degree of essential service is continuous, why do we have to continually go through this as different contracts come to an end? Why can we not develop some kind of formula so that those who are in essential service types of employment can get this designation, and we don't have to go through the cost and delays of this each time?

    I would also like to ask about the talks that Air Canada is going through right now with the employees, under the stewardship of a former judge. Is there any light the minister can shed on that?

    About a week ago I raised directly with the minister the problem of flight attendants who used to be classed as flight crew. That has now been changed. They are not flight crew, and only their hard hours will count for calculation of employment benefits. Consequently they may not qualify, even though they actually worked full long hours. Does she have any follow-up on our conversations on that?

    Thank you.

º  (1635)  

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: On the essential services, as you know, it goes in front of the Canada Industrial Relations Board. The amendments to the codes have been in place since 1999, so it's a fairly new process that we're beginning to get into. I'm sure if Marine Atlantic or other companies such as NAV CANADA had come back to the board on a regular basis, the board would have made a decision similar to what you are recommending. But because it's a new process, the board now makes these decisions. We'll have to wait and see in the long term how that is going to work out for us.

    When you brought up the flight attendant question with me, I went to several ministers to see what minister was responsible for that. It is the Minister of Transport, so I would certainly recommend that you get in touch with him to see if changes can be made on that.

    On Air Canada, you know that Judge Farley made a decision. You also know that Judge Winkler is now meeting both the employee groups and the employer groups. My understanding is that Judge Winkler understands the situation very well. He understands very well the needs of the employees and the employers, and he's very good at that. So we're watching it very carefully, as you are, because we're also concerned about what can happen with Air Canada.

    The Chair: Peter, you have three minutes left.

    Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton Centre-East, Canadian Alliance): Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

    Madam Bradshaw, my question is related to the homelessness file. I just want to review a document your office sent to me, because there seems to be some dispute and confusion in the numbers we're talking about in basic terms.

    I'm referring to the emergency shelter spaces in Edmonton that have been added over the last four years, with the $753 million of funding for the homeless. That effectively is some $20 million to the City of Edmonton alone. This funding was apparently first initiated in the fall of 1999, some three and a half years ago.

    This past winter, Edmonton had to open up LRT stations for emergency sheltering of homeless people. On the net result of funding emergency shelter spaces, from your document here, you give the figure of 97. But Urban Manor, which you count as 75 spaces, has only 13 new ones because the others existed before. The George Spady Centre, with 22 spaces is really not.... That's a room that's opened up every winter by other means, so that is not new space.

    My question to you, Madam Minister, is how can it possibly be that after three and a half years of homeless funding we only have a net increase of 12 emergency bed spaces?

    I wish to compliment and thank Mayor Smith of Edmonton for taking the initiative, when others didn't, to open up some emergency shelters when it was so cold.

    How can you account for the fact that we had to open up LRT stations for the most basic element of shelter space--a few square feet of floor space?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: Thank you very much for your question, Mr. Goldring. I know you're quite involved and quite a professional in housing, and you have studied and written a lot on it.

    I have no idea where you get your numbers. Urban Manor has 12 new beds, not 13. As you know, our first responsibility was to work with the food banks and repair them if they needed it, and then repair the shelters if they needed it.

    Urban Manor is a good example within your riding. They didn't even have a kitchen for their 60-bed unit. Now they're in a beautiful, wonderful, probably best-designed building for the chronic homeless that I have seen across the country. That is due to the board and the executive director of Urban Manor.

    So our first priority was to repair the food banks, shelters, and places like Urban Manor--which we did.

    I can give you the numbers for Edmonton. On the emergency beds, there are 100 new shelter beds and 63 replacement beds. In transitional housing, there were 184 new beds and 12 replacement beds. In the long-term supportive area, there were 308 new beds.

º  (1640)  

    Mr. Peter Goldring: Madam Minister, this is from a document from your office of February 21.

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: I would like to see it. Please pass me the document, Mr. Goldring, so I can answer you. This is only for the Edmonton area.

    The Chair: Peter will have three minutes on a second round. You can respond then.

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: Sure. Perhaps you can give me that so I can see what it is and what documentation you're using. I have the numbers here for Edmonton and for across Canada.

    The Chair: Mr. Malhi.

    Mr. Gurbax Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, Lib.): Thank you.

    A number of free trade agreements have complementary labour side agreements attached. I would like the minister to explain how effective these agreements have been in the past, and if she feels that the labour side agreement is a natural fact of the trade agreement.

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: The labour side agreements have worked very well for us. As you know, we have agreements with Mexico, Chile, and Costa Rica, and they've gone really well.

    At the meeting of the Americas we invited the ministers to come with their employee groups and their employer groups. The 34 ministers brought their employee and employer groups together. Because we have labour market agreements there, we've been able to work as a team. The ministers are getting involved with the workshops and everything we've done. So if we didn't have the labour market agreement to the trade agreement, we would not be there. We would not be a player. Because we're a player and we're used to working within a team in Canada, we're using the same method now that we're dealing with the Americas.

    On probably one of the nicest Christmas gifts I have received, we had done a lot of work with Mexico on the labour side, and several complaints had come to us from Mexico. The minister wanted to reform their labour bill, so we had many discussions with Mexico and worked very closely with them. At Christmas time in Peru I met with the Minister of Labour from Mexico.

    Let me just give you six points they've put into their new bill, which I think says a lot about labour market agreements and the changes that can be done when they're done well.

    They did not have rules requiring secret ballot voting in any union election or strike vote. When you had your meeting in Quebec and I went to the labour meeting, they were having a discussion on the stage when I arrived. A member from Mexico from the union was saying they didn't have the secret ballot vote. They're putting it into their new bill.

    They're putting in new protections against discrimination. They're putting in stronger protection against sexual harassment in the workplace. They're in putting rules that clearly prohibit dismissing a female worker because of her pregnancy, change of marital status, or caring for her children. They're putting in rules that prohibit interference in the establishment of unions, and rules to professionalize labour boards and ensure that labour board rulings are predictable and timely.

    So when you talk about the labour market agreements that we have signed and whether they are effective, after five years, look at what has happened due to cooperation with Mexico. We can be very proud as a country that we played a part in that.

    Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Madam Minister, can you please elaborate on the objectives of the extended homelessness initiative? What will be its focus for the next three years?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: The focus for the first three years was on food banks, shelter, and transitional housing. But the most important part in the first three years was that the groups came together. They made their plans, got their money, and decided where the money was going to go.

    In the second term, phase II of the homelessness initiative, we really want to concentrate on the private sector. We want to bring in the private sector. They're already involved. In Calgary, the private sector is involved. It's unbelievable. In Edmonton...the trust fund. Already in a lot of communities the private sector is involved, but we want to involve them even more. So I'll be touring again in July, and I'll be speaking to the boards of trade, the chambers of commerce, the business community, and the construction companies, to work with us on our transitional housing so we can bring people from the shelters to transitional housing, and hopefully within our communities.

    As Minister Blondin-Andrew said awhile ago, we will be working very closely with our group on FAS/FAE. Many of our homeless people have FAS/FAE. We want to do a lot of work with our community organizations so they're trained on that. Also, for any company that will hire a person with FAS/FAE, we will go in and train that company on what they're able to do and not do. It's probably the population we've failed the most across this country because we don't know what their needs are. We will be doing a lot of education, hopefully, with our community organizations and the private sector on FAS/FAE.

º  (1645)  

    The Chair: Good. You have a minute left.

    Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Madam Minister, can you please tell us when the new program dollars will start to flow to the communities.

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: As you heard me say a while ago, our discussions are going very well with the provinces. For example, the last time in Quebec it took us a year and a half; this time it took about an afternoon for them to sign.

    We hope to have all the signatures of all the provinces fairly soon. Then we have to go to Treasury Board. We hope to have the money flowing to the community organizations this summer.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Madame Guay.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay: Thank you, Madam Chair. I'd like to welcome both ministers.

    The Minister of Labour is familiar with my interest in worker issues and I know she is quite involved in this sector.

    I'd like remind her that on November 26, 2001, she acknowledged before this committee major shortcomings in terms of the precautionary cessation of work by women. On May 7, 2002, she promised a study for September 2002 and in the corridors of the House of Commons, she promised to act on this matter last April. We're now in May and I have yet to get an answer. I'd like the Minister to tell me when exactly she plans to have an answer for me or a report on the precautionary cessation of work by pregnant women or nursing mothers. This is a critically important issue.

    Secondly, the Minister is well aware of the fact that I have tabled anti-strikebreaking legislation in the House of Commons. My bill has been given first reading and will be given second reading in September. The Minister hinted, even to the local press, that she was keenly interested in this issue and that she was open to amending the Canada Labour Code to include anti-strikebreaking provisions. As she undoubtedly knows, the vast majority of unions in Canada want anti-strikebreaking legislation. She indicated that she was prepared to move on this issue and I invite her to sign the petition that is making its way across Canada, even throughout her home province of New Brunswick. There is on our part the political will to act. Does the Minister in turn have the political will to follow through on this issue?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: To answer your first question, Ms. Guay, I have to say that I took your concern for pregnant and nursing women very seriously. Madam Chair, I told Ms. Guay as much in committee. We have conducted a solid, lengthy study. We didn't want you to think that we weren't taking this study seriously. We took our time.

    Admittedly, when they learned they I was appearing before the committee today, those working on this study wanted to know if they should pick up the pace so that I could table the report to the Member at the same time. I told them no. The report will no doubt be ready by the end of May and I assure you it will be a serious, professional document. I didn't want to table it today because I felt this could be construed as my playing politics. I'm not prepared to play politics with issues like this. As I said, the report will be ready in late May and will be tabled to the committee at that time.

    As for replacement workers, I've often said that when Part I of the Canada Labour Code was drafted, the question of strikebreakers was discussed at considerable length. As Minister of Labour, I have a duty to respect management and workers equally. If management and union representatives advised me that they wished to re-examine the whole question of replacement workers, I would be more than willing to re-open the debate. However, the request would have to come from the workers and from the employers themselves, because the Canada Labour Code was drafted on that basis.

    Having said this, I want to congratulate the Member on her strong convictions. This proved to be a very difficult point of the discussions on amending Part I of the Labour Code. I want to congratulate her on her hard work and I want to assure her that I am more than willing to listen to employees and employers if they wish to discuss another alternative in the case of Part I of the Labour Code.

º  (1650)  

    Ms. Monique Guay: You will be hearing from them, Minister, because petitions are currently making the rounds and it isn't over yet. You'll hear more about this throughout the summer.

    The committee is currently holding hearings in various locations to discuss this bill, which has been extremely well received by workers, unions and media officials covering the hearings. If necessary, I'll file a brief report with the minister to bring her up to speed on this issue. However, I think she should know that even within her own party, some Members are planning to support my bill. I'm deeply committed to this initiative. Perhaps you'll also come to appreciate how critically important it is. Strikes such as the ones seen recently are unacceptable. The Vidéotron strike lasted 10 months; the strike at Sécur lasted forever; Cargill employees have been locked out for 37½ months. That's unacceptable.

    Quebec hasn't seen anything like this for 25 years because of its strikebreaking legislation. Similar legislation has been enacted in British Columbia and the overall length of strikes has been reduced by 50 per cent. Take the lead on this issue and support the passage of strikebreaking legislation.

    Moving on the subject of homelessness, a number of major initiatives targeting the homeless are under way in my region. Youths have done an amazing job and the projects carried out in various parts of my riding have reflected considerable flexibility. The problem, however, is that these ventures were initially one-year programs and now, they must fund themselves. We haven't received any guarantees that funding for these programs would be recurring.

    For example, when a community coffee house with services for young people opens its doors, there are start-up costs to contend with. However, it's ridiculous to even think that a venture like this will become self-supporting in a year's time. What happens then? Will the coffee house be forced to close its doors, or will you step in with some kind of recurring funding?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: Madam Chair, on the subject of replacement workers, I appreciate the work that the Member will be doing this summer, and indeed has been doing over the past three years, but I do hope she can also appreciate the fact that as Minister of Labour, I have a duty, not only to workers, but to employers as well. We've been collaborating for the past four years and she must know that I am very open to the needs of workers and to any suggestions they might have.

    With respect to homelessness, we wanted to be certain that the projects we funded could eventually pay for themselves. We realize that many groups will never become self-sufficient, and that's why I said the Government of Canada wasn't interested in funding programs that would fall by the wayside once government funding ended because they could never be self-supporting.

    That's one of the reasons why I plan to visit businesses in each community over the course of the summer. I want to impress upon them the importance of initiatives that we were able to fund and to seek their assurance that these initiatives will continue to be self-supporting. Whether it be youth programs, programs for persons with mental disabilities or food banks, all of these initiatives are critically important. I'm very concerned about all of these issues.

º  (1655)  

[English]

    The Chair: Thank you. I feel so mean cutting everybody off.

    Monsieur Bellemare.

[Translation]

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair,

    Minister, on the subject of homelessness, you are correct to state that partnerships are very important to ensuring the effectiveness of programs. Have you had much success with your program for the homeless in Ontario and specifically, in Ottawa, the National Capital Region? I imagine you will say yes. Where exactly should we be focussing our attention in the Ottawa, Ontario region?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: We've had more success with the program for the homeless across the country than I anticipated. I wasn't expecting things to go so well. We wanted to accomplish two main goals.

    Firstly, we wanted to bring communities together because this is important. We developed a process whereby communities could do that. Secondly, we wanted the three levels of government to work together with a view to recognizing the work done at the community level.

    Let me give you two examples. Last month, I visited a youth halfway house in Ottawa. A total of 22 apartments house young people in the city. This initiative is self-supporting. The youth pay rent and receive support. The main difference here is the support provided to young persons and the efforts of community groups.

[English]

    The other area I went to visit--you're the only one who has it in Canada and I invite you to see it if you haven't--was the mission. They have a palliative care unit, so homeless people don't have to go to the hospital to die; they can die at the mission.

    If you went to see that program and met them.... They know their needs. If a homeless person has a dog or a cat, they don't have to get rid of it. It's there with them. Their families have united with them. It's really something to see the love and care for those homeless people who are going to die in that shelter. There isn't another one like that in Canada.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Was this a federal or provincial initiative?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: It was funded by us through the homelessness initiative.

    When I travel to the provinces, it's one area I want to speak to them about. They do it cheaper, but that's not the important part. You have to see it. We talk about dignity all the time in the House of Commons, and we say we run so we can give Canadians their dignity. Well if you want to see how dignity works, go to see the people at the mission, and see what they're doing in their palliative care unit.

[Translation]

    To answer your question concerning the homeless population, we have turned to the community for assistance. Community groups are well positioned to know the needs that exist. We trust their insight, we provide them with funding and they decide which needs will be addressed out in the communities. It's incredible to see the kinds of services available in Ottawa.

    Workers at the mission also act in partnership with the university. In conjunction with the National Homelessness Initiative, genuine community partnership is present and everyone is involved. Ottawa has some very good models not found anywhere else in Canada.

»  (1700)  

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Madam, correct me if I'm wrong, but I had the impression that over the past number of years, the province of Ontario had shut down many of its psychiatric facilities. Patients who once resided in these facilities weren't able, for a variety of reasons, to move back with their families. Some now live on the streets, even the streets of the Nation's Capital. Is it not true that the province turned these people out of these psychiatric facilities and, because these persons cannot be integrated into society, they now live on the streets and have become the municipalities' problem, because they are part of the homeless population? What is the federal government doing to help these persons, in spite of the province's actions?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: I have to say that all of the provinces, including Ontario, have worked hard on the homelessness question. The level of cooperation from all provinces has been excellent indeed.

    When I visited food banks in the course of my six-week cross-country tour, I heard how patients recently released from psychiatric hospitals were given their medications and directed to food banks and to shelters. I heard how patients were put in taxis along with their medications and shipped directly to a shelter.

    This is a problem. Many street people were once patients in our psychiatric facilities. This situation underscores the importance of building transitional houses. These individuals cannot live on their own. They need support.

    I reflected at considerable length on this question. Initially, I wondered if closing our psychiatric hospitals was the right thing to do, because patients were now living on the streets. However, when I visit a place like Urban Manor in Edmonton and see the support and love these people receive, I admit that they are well served by transitional houses. They have no need for a psychiatric facility when they can get such tremendous support and love from the community.

    Several problems are associated with the issue of homelessness, the two main ones being dealing with persons with mental illnesses and with minimum-wage earners. In Calgary, for example, 50 per cent of the homeless population consists of persons who are working, but can't afford to rent an apartment.

[English]

    The Chair: Mr. Goldring is next for three minutes.

    Mr. Peter Goldring: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

    Madam Minister, I'd just like to just remind you that last year on May 8, of the three priorities--although only two were mentioned--you said the number one priority was to make certain that homeless people had a place to sleep. The very first priority was that there would be enough shelter beds in this country, so if anybody died on the street it wasn't due to the fact there were no shelter beds. Yet $20 million later we have that exact circumstance. We have people sleeping on the streets in the city of Edmonton and other places. There are some 60 people a night in the LRT station.

    You spoke very glowingly of the Urban Manor, which added exactly 12--let's argue 12 to 13--beds to the unit. I visited that at midnight with a shelter survey to see if it had extra capacity, and it did. It had a very large room that was used for your ribbon-cutting ceremonies, and it had space in there for some 100 floor mats, if they wanted to use it. But that room was empty that night, while they had to open up the LRT station.

    So I'm beginning to wonder exactly what the priorities are, and if this is rampant across the country. In other words, that's Edmonton. It's my understanding that in Toronto and other places there are still people--even in Red Deer--sleeping outside.

    Once again, how can that be considered a success when you have people sleeping on the street for want of a few square feet of the most economical housing you can possibly give--although rather third-world. We haven't provided that. Why?

»  (1705)  

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: Maybe you and I should go for supper one night and have a long discussion about who is homeless and what their needs are.

    One of the biggest problems we have, to answer your question, is the chronic homeless. The people who want to go to a shelter now.... Were you in the Calgary shelter? Did you see what a beautiful place they've opened? Have you seen the Salvation Army's new facility and Urban Manor's new facility? We've built wonderful shelters now. Some people were saying, “We don't want to go to the shelters because we're not safe there”. You've seen Urban Manor and what we've done. We've taken a store that didn't even have a kitchen and built one of the most beautiful buildings in this country.

    Mr. Peter Goldring: Madam Chair--

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: Excuse me, please. Let me answer, please, and we're going to see if you can understand.

    The chronic homeless are there. The biggest challenge we have is what to do with the chronic homeless. What kinds of shelters do we build for the chronic homeless?

    As you know, London and New York passed legislation that people could not be on the street. They had to come in. In London, England the attitude is, “Why are we going to build all these facilities when the people can stay on the street”?

    Mr. Peter Goldring: Why is it possible with that funding?

    The Chair: Mr. Spencer has time. After you can-- .

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: Mr. Goldring, maybe you should listen, because I'm telling you the chronic homeless are a challenge. We have to see what to do. I'm meeting with your community organization, we're speaking to your community organization--

    The Chair: All right, I'm moving on to the next one.

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: The other thing I'd like to say is when somebody dies on the street, we always do an investigation to see if they died because of a lack of shelter beds. This past winter they didn't die because of a lack of shelter beds.

    The Chair: Madame St-Jacques.

[Translation]

    Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

    My question concerns homeless youth and persons who have problems finding work. In my riding, there are a number of programs in place to assist people and give them some work experience. I've observed several such programs and I'm wondering if the desired results were achieved? I agree somewhat with what Ms. Guay said, namely that programs don't last enough because the funding runs out.

    Some of the youths are so “wasted” that it's hard to imagine how they could be integrated into the workforce in the space of a few months. That's a difficult proposition indeed.

    First of all, have these programs achieved the desired results? Secondly, have we achieved our stated objective? Finally, could we possibly extend the duration of these youth programs?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: We're aware of this and looking at the situation very closely. When I requested funding for the second phase, I requested money for five years. As you know, funding was approved for a three-year period.

    For this reason, in phase two and during my next visit, the focus will be on working with businesses in the community. I have some concerns about programs becoming self-supporting. Young persons need our help, but it's equally important to get businesses involved in these projects. This isn't government's sole responsibility. Partnership means the involvement of three levels of government and the involvement of the private sector as well.

    We've made arrangements for computer programs and individuals and community groups have expressed considerable interest in this initiative. For the next three years, I really want to focus on results. I do not want to set up a program for the homeless population if I can't come back to you next year and say: we've set up food banks, we've opened more shelters, many people have benefited from the services of transitional houses and many people have found work or moved out of transitional housing and into their own apartments. We want to be able to give you some figures and we think we'll be able to deliver. However, I want to be certain that over the next three years, we gather all of the appropriate data.

»  (1710)  

    Ms. Diane St-Jacques: So then, if I understand correctly, there is no data as yet on the results achieved. There's no way of knowing if we have succeeded in...

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: We don't have the figures you're requesting. We can provide you with data on youth halfway houses. This is one area of particular interest to me.

    We have to find ways of supporting youths and the homeless over the long term so that they stop wandering aimlessly about. Halfway houses are a vital tool in this process.

    I can supply you with figures on the number of halfway houses and apartments for youths.

    Ms. Diane St-Jacques: Excuse me, Madam Chair, but what exactly do you mean by “transitional housing”?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: Transitional housing provides certain services. The majority of homeless youths with whom we work grew up in the system, were shunted from one foster home to another, or from one institution to another.

    It's hard for us to imagine that these youths never had parents or a family. It's hard for us to fathom that. Halfway houses take in youths and provide the services they need, such as helping them earn their grade 10, 11 or 12 diploma. If they are having troubling managing their anger, they will receive help. If they want to find a job, they will also get some help. No appointments are needed. If they need to stay at the halfway house for two, three, four, five or even six years, the staff will be there to attend to their needs.

    That's the raison d'être of transitional housing. When the young person moves out, he is ready to live independently.

    Ms. Diane St-Jacques: Have any transitional housing projects been initiated?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: Yes. During phase one of the initiative, we were pleasantly surprised to see how many community groups immediately expressed an interest in getting involved in transitional housing.

    Ms. Diane St-Jacques: Transitional housing is restricted to youth. Correct?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: The target population is young persons and persons who have been released from psychiatric facilities.

    Ms. Diane St-Jacques: With respect to the Homelessness Initiative, certain regions, particularly in Quebec, were targeted. My region was not, and I can't say the reason is the lack of homeless people in the area. We have a homeless population, but perhaps it is less visible. Will other regions be targeted under the new initiative? What is planned for the next several months?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: This has been discussed at considerable length. As you know, we are actively working in 61 communities and we are in negotiations with the provinces. Will the provinces continue to target the same regions? A new government has been elected in Quebec. Will it target the same regions? Perhaps this is something that needs to be discussed with the new Quebec government.

    We're also wondering if small rural communities will require our assistance for more than three years. Some communities may have needed shelters and others, transitional housing, at one point, but not any more. Therefore, perhaps the government can shift its focus to another community such as yours. We're looking into all of this.

    Ms. Diane St-Jacques: Will any decisions be made in the near future?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: As soon as we have signed an agreement with Quebec, some decisions will be made.

    Ms. Diane St-Jacques: But you cannot tell me when that will be.

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: We still do not have a date, but negotiations should be taking place very shortly.

    Ms. Diane St-Jacques: Thank you, Minister.

[English]

    The Chair: Madam Davies is next. We're at seven-minute rounds.

    Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Thank you very much.

    First of all, thanks to both ministers for being here today. There are lots of issues we could raise, but I think the fact that so many of the questions have been on homelessness and housing is a real indication that right across the country we still feel there's a lot of difficulty.

    Madam Bradshaw, I want to ask whether you are aware of a report that came out just last week in Toronto. It was a shelter inspection report, and actually involved some work from a former UN refugee worker. After visiting the shelters, he likened some of the conditions to things he had seen in refugee camps. I know you've visited some of the shelters, as have I, and I think we would probably agree that some of the conditions are pretty appalling.

    It's really concerning me, and I don't think we can pass off the issue of homelessness as a kind of social problem. There are people, as you say, who are facing chronic homelessness and have significant social problems. But there are many studies that show--one out of New York, for example--that when you provide stable, appropriate, long-term housing, people will actually stay in that housing.

    Are you aware of this report that was very recently done? Do you have resources or staff in your department to do your own inspections and look at what's going on in shelters? This is not to blame the shelter providers, because they're often dealing with very small facilities in cramped quarters.

    When you look at what's happened with SARS, these situations can be devastating, even from a communicable disease point of view. So I'd like to know what you're doing to address situations within those shelters, and in particular the recommendations that came out of this report just last week. I think it was pretty damning, in terms of what they investigated and found.

    You're talking about awards here from UN-HABITAT, but we still have shelters in this country that people have been living in for an extended period of time, which again is totally inappropriate. I'm sure you would agree with me on that point.

»  (1715)  

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: I did not see that report, and I would appreciate getting a copy if you have one. I know how concerned you are about these issues, and you know I'm as concerned as you are.

    I have some statistics here that I could give you, but you're beyond those. I can tell you how many shelters we helped repair, and so on.

    I will answer your question this way. We have facilitators in every community. The shelter people meet on a regular basis, since we've given them the money, on the homelessness front. When I met with the shelter people, there were maybe 17 or 18 of them in Toronto--I'm talking about Toronto because that's what you're specifically speaking to me about. I asked them how many more shelter beds they needed in Toronto; how many more shelter beds they wanted. Their answer was, “We don't want any more shelter beds. We want transitional houses”. That's exactly what you're saying.

    Some people have been living in shelters; they've been their homes. We have to start looking at another way of doing it through transitional housing for them. They are going to come, live, and have the support they need. That's why I'm hoping in the next three years we will be able to get into a lot more transitional houses, with the community organizations,

    Also, we haven't seen the effect yet. You might know more about affordable housing, but I don't know if any provinces have started to spend a lot of the money on affordable housing yet. My province just started signing. That was $1 billion--$680 million plus $340 million. Now that the provinces have all signed on affordable housing, I'm hoping that with the affordable housing funding, and with us being able to support the communities in transitional housing, we will see a difference and we will start to see it progress.

    In 1999, we hadn't put any money into housing for 10 years. Since 1999, we've put $1 billion into affordable housing plus almost $1 billion into homelessness. So I'm hoping we will start to see something happening.

    I'm very concerned about what you're telling me about Toronto. I met with the shelter people, and our facilitators have been meeting with the shelter people in the community, so I'd love to have a copy of that report because I know what we've done. I could give you the numbers of all the shelters we've helped renovate, but I don't want to get into that with you. I know about all the work you've done on homelessness, and I respect you for that. I want us to work together on this file, not be against one another.

    The Chair: You have one minute.

    Ms. Libby Davies: Transitional housing is very important, but in the meantime, anything that can be done to improve the environment within the shelters is critical. That's what this report really pointed out, so I will send it over.

»  (1720)  

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: Please do. When we got the funding, I made it very clear to the community groups and the facilitators that our first two priorities were providing what the food banks needed, and repairing the shelters so you and I would not be afraid to step into those shelters. I want to believe that. I know that some of the shelters we've built are beautiful and we've improved them a lot.

    I'm anxious to see that report.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Finlay is next, and then Madam Guay.

    Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to both ministers for your presence this afternoon.

    My question has partly been answered. I just want to clear up a point or two on the extended homelessness initiative. What is being done to address the issue of sustainability? How will you ensure that the projects remain operational after your funding ceases in 2006? Can you tell us if this homelessness initiative succeeded in many places--I take it that it did--in leveraging funds to enhance community investments?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: I'm very concerned about sustainability because I come from the community. I do not want to come to Ottawa, go into the community, build something, and then see it close when the funding is not there anymore.

    On transitional housing--and this is the interesting part--because it's a place where they live and not a shelter, the people who live there will get their money, whether it comes from health and community services, wherever. In Ottawa, they built 22 apartments as transitional housing for youth. They're mortgage-free, so the organization has money to pay support staff. That place is going to be sustainable for the rest of their lives.

    I was on the housing task force in 1986 in New Brunswick, and I've always said that the richest people in this country are slum landlords. If slum landlords can make money from renting their terrible apartments to our youth and our mentally ill on the street, then surely to God our community organizations can build apartments, give them support, and be sustainable. So I'm very confident that on the transitional housing front, those programs will be sustainable--no problem.

    It was amazing to us how many other partnerships we found on the homelessness front. So we put in $753 million of CMHC funding, and we brought in about $500 million that was matched by the different communities. So we were ecstatic. It was amazing how FCM mayors and councils, the provinces, and the private sector came in. It was absolutely amazing across the country how everybody within our communities came in.

    So we were quite happy with that.

    Mr. John Finlay: How much again did you put up?

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: There was $753 million, so $311 million went to CMHC for RRAP; $432 million went to homelessness; $10 million went to public works; and $305 million of that $432 million went to SCPI. So when I say $753 million went to homelessness, don't forget that $311 million of that went to CMHC for the RRAP. It didn't all go to homelessness.

    Mr. John Finlay: Do you expect a relatively harmonious industrial relations climate in the federal jurisdiction in 2003-04? How much will be spent on mediation and conciliation services in the current fiscal year, and how does that compare to the previous fiscal year?

»  (1725)  

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: I hope it's going to go well. We have NAV CANADA coming along, as the member from the Alliance talked about. We have Air Canada and Canada Post. Our mediation department is excellent at doing all kinds of work, so I think it will be okay.

    Whenever there's a dispute, as you know, the first thing people want is back-to-work legislation. They say, “When are you going bring them back to work, minister? You have to get them back to work, minister”. Well, a collective agreement is a collective agreement, and you have to give them time to sort out their differences and work things out on their own. I'm a big believer in that. So it's going very well.

    The Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service spent $3.9 million on its mediation and conciliation activities in 2002-03. We anticipate that a similar amount will be spent in the fiscal year 2003-04. FMCS also spent an additional $1.2 million on activities related to part III of the code--unjust dismissal, adjudicators, and wage recovery referees.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Finlay. Thank you, Madam Bradshaw.

    Madam Guay is next for four minutes, and then Mr. Spencer for four minutes.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay: Thank you, Madam Chair.

    I think it's important to review the achievements of the Department of Labour over the past several years. I realize that you haven't been the Minister of Labour for that entire period of time, but several officials here today have been around for quite some time.

    Since 1989, anti-strikebreaking legislation has been tabled in the House of Commons on eight separate occasions. Eight separate bills since 1989! Since 1991, 13 requests have been made to introduce precautionary cessation of work provisions for pregnant and nursing women. These initiatives are not costly as far as the Minister is concerned, in particular the anti-strikebreaking legislation. All that is required is the political will to act, not so much money.

    On May 1, 1,000 people turned out on Parliament Hill to demonstrate and call on the Minister to bring in anti-strikebreaking measures. They claimed to have lost their homes, vehicles and assets as a result of going out on strike. Radio-Nord was also there. I see my colleague Guy St-Julien seated opposite me. The protesters have been on strike for six months and don't see any end in sight to the conflict. The government needs to act now and act quickly.

    The Minister also needs to be forthright with her colleagues. She cannot maintain that Henri Massé is opposed to anti-strikebreaking legislation. To say that the CLC does not support us on this initiative is a falsehood. Mr. Massé issued a press release and all unions have come out in support of our position.

    Therefore, I hope we get some straight talk here and that the Minister will be receptive to the comments made. When petitions containing thousands of signatures are presented to the government, I hope this will send up a red flag and the Minister will finally decide to push for measures to protect workers. Elections will be called one day and these persons will not soon forget that the federal government didn't protect them or fight for the little guy, for the workers, but instead, sided with business.

    Minister, I want you to be straight with people. The CLC supports us, Henri Massé supports us and you know this for a fact. Be straight with us. For my part, I'll continue to work if you display a positive will to act on this matter.

    Hon. Claudette Bradshaw: Madam Chair, as I've said before, the Member has done an amazing job on the issue of replacement workers. However, it's important for her to understand that as Minister of Labour, I have a duty to the workers as well as to their employers. The alternative dispute resolution mechanism incorporated into Part I of the Canada Labour Code was negotiated with all of the unions represented. Mr. Massé was there as well. All of the unions were involved in negotiating this alternative mechanism with employers and I informed them that if they had something better to propose, I would be willing to hear them out. Mr. Massé, the unions and the employers all know how this agreement was hammered out.

    As you know, as far as nursing mothers are concerned, we want to look at Part III of the Labour Code. The Member will have a report by the end of May. I've listened to her concerns. There was no obligation on our part to produce a report, but out of consideration for her efforts, we decided to produce one.

    I also hope, Madam Chair, that the committee will work closely with us on Part III of the Labour Code, just as it did on the equity issue.

»  (1730)  

[English]

    The Chair: One last question.

    Mr. Larry Spencer (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Madam Chair.

    My question is for the Secretary of State for Children and Youth, who has told us they're going to spend approximately $180 million per year on head start and day care initiatives over the next five years.

    My question is two-pronged. You claim the head start program is a phenomenal success. I want to know very quickly why. How do you determine whether the money's going to go to head start or to day care initiatives? What do you expect to get from day care initiatives?

    Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: On the investment, there are already indicators from some of the children who have gone from the head start program into their first formative years in schools. You can tell that they're ready to learn and they're socialized. They interact well and they're prepared for learning. They're obviously getting the side benefits that these programs offer, which are helping the parents be part of their education, part of their early childhood development, and part of the whole nurturing process. Not everyone knows how to be a parent.

    The side benefits of the head start program include teaching young parents, single parents, and even quite young parents who are together and have never had children before how to be parents, and providing them the support they need. A lot of them don't do it by themselves; they do it in teams or groups.

    We base a lot of this on the evaluations, and I can get one of the officials to provide you detailed information on the evaluations we use. We base the success of the program on them, but there are early indicators already that it's working very well.

    You also asked how we decide where the money goes for child care. That's predetermined. There are priorities set by the government based on the needs that are demonstrated across the country. We have a real working society with a lot of double-income people, a lot of people who are integrated into the labour market, and they need to have proper childcare.

    There's a huge demonstration of need, and we're trying to address that. If you want aboriginal people to go into the labour market, they need proper childcare. That's how the priorities are set. But basically, the government believes children need a proper early start. They need a proper head start. Children need support in their formative years and proper nurturing and care, in order to be healthy youth and adults.

    The Chair: I apologize to the committee that's following. I know you've been waiting very patiently, Mr. Adams.

    To the ministers and those who've come with you, I want to thank you all for your patience with us. You've helped us immensely in our understanding of what's happening in both departments. Thank you.

    The meeting is adjourned.