HUMA Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, April 3, 2003

¹

1525

The Chair (Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.))

Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell (Plant Manager, Avon Foods Inc.)

¹

1530

The Chair

Ms. Françoise Grenon (Teaching Consultant, Business Services, "Commission scolaire de Montréal")

¹

1535

The Chair

Ms. Ruth Rogerson (Field Officer, Durabelt Inc.)

¹

1540

¹

1545

The Chair

Mr. Clarence Neault (General Manager, La Ronge Motor Hotel, Saskatchewan)

¹

1550

The Chair

Ms. Lynda Ryder (Director, Employee Relations, National Silicates)

¹

1555

The Chair

Ms. Valerie Unwin (Language Training Coordinator, Palliser Furniture)

º

1600

º

1605

The Chair

Ms. Valerie Unwin

The Chair

Ms. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ)

Ms. Valerie Unwin

Mr. Clarence Neault

Ms. Lynda Ryder

º

1610

The Chair

Ms. Lynda Ryder

Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell

Ms. Ruth Rogerson

º

1615

Ms. Françoise Grenon

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, Lib.)

Ms. Ruth Rogerson

Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell

The Chair

Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell

Ms. Lynda Ryder

º

1620

Mr. Clarence Neault

Ms. Valerie Unwin

Ms. Françoise Grenon

º

1625

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans)

Ms. Françoise Grenon

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Françoise Grenon

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Françoise Grenon

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Françoise Grenon

º

1630

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Ms. Valerie Unwin

Ms. Lynda Ryder

Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Ms. Monique Guay

º

1635

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Monique Guay

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Monique Guay

Ms. Lynda Ryder

Ms. Monique Guay

Ms. Françoise Grenon

º

1640

Mr. Clarence Neault

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Monique Guay

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Valerie Unwin

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

º

1645

Ms. Valerie Unwin

The Chair

Ms. Lynda Ryder

Ms. Ruth Rogerson

º

1650

Mr. Clarence Neault

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

The Chair

Ms. Françoise Grenon

º

1655

The Chair

Ms. Valerie Unwin

Ms. Lynda Ryder

Mr. Clarence Neault

Ms. Ruth Rogerson

»

1700

Ms. Françoise Grenon

Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell

»

1705

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

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NUMBER 022

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Thursday, April 3, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

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[English]

    The Chair (Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.)): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I am pleased to welcome you to the 22nd meeting of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. We are studying literacy pursuant to Standing Order 108(2).

    I'm very pleased to have with us today a number of folks representing some excellent examples of good practice, and I'm anxious for you to share your good news with the members of the committee. I know there'll be some welcome questions at the end of your presentations. If you keep your presentations within the guidelines given to you by the clerk, it will provide the committee members with an opportunity to pose direct questions.

    I'm first going to call on representatives from Avon Foods Inc. If you could, please identify yourself and begin your presentation.

    Thank you.

    Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell (Plant Manager, Avon Foods Inc.): My name is Albert Craswell, and I'm the plant manager of Avon Foods in Nova Scotia. I'm very pleased to be here this afternoon.

    Avon Foods is a privately owned company located in Berwick in the Annapolis Valley of Nova Scotia. Avon employs 90 full-time and another 60 seasonal workers who perform various tasks pertaining to the canning of locally grown vegetables. For many years the vegetable processing industry remained stable, with little change.

    That all changed during the late eighties, and this is when Avon found itself with a staff of mainly mature employees, many of whom were high school dropouts. Then came the introduction of new electronic equipment, such as colour sorters to inspect food, as well as new quality assurance programs, better known as HACCP, the hazard analysis critical control points. Along with that there was a consolidated customer base that wanted suppliers to be certified by independent audits. Add all this to a vast number of new regulations, and we were facing a major challenge. On top of that, our union was adamant that their membership must not suffer in this process.

    We then discovered that the Nova Scotia Department of Education and Culture had a newly created program on workplace literacy, and we thought that would help us. A field officer met with us, and in 1991 we set up our first workplace upgrading program. Three main objectives were set. First, we wanted to create a competitive edge through a stable, flexible workforce. Second, we wanted to enable our employees to document job tasks and record procedures according to the company's newly laid-out quality assurance program, as well as to meet the new regulatory requirements. Third, we wanted our employees' reading, writing, math, and communications skills improved to maximize the benefits of our new quality assurance system.

    The province paid for the teacher; Avon provided space, curriculum, materials, and refreshments; the union provided the necessary textbooks; and the employees attended the class on their own time. It was truly a cooperative effort. Immediately we saw a team evolve. The union--the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union, local 446--became a very strong component of the idea. Within the factory peers were convincing each other to make the voluntary decision to participate in the learning process. Management was an active participant, expecting positive results.

    The Nova Scotia Department of Education and Culture continued as a committed partner, and I personally volunteered as a partner in the provincial workplace advisory panel, which I still belong to. What resulted was a family type of workplace, one that has since thrived on people caring about and helping other people. Employees felt valued and took a greater pride in the workplace. They began proudly displaying company logos on a variety of street clothing, and increasingly employees have been volunteering their time to the community at large. Today the Avon workplace displays strong evidence of a highly confident team.

    Avon has benefited from this in many ways and is becoming a leader in many aspects of the food industry. We have experienced a reduction in customer complaints. Our reputation for quality has grown, and our processing line has improved to become an extremely predictable operation. Our customer service has improved to an exceptionally high level, and the management and union enjoy a unique respect for each other. Now Avon has an adaptable, resourceful, and problem-solving workforce. All of the above, ladies and gentlemen, provide the Avon organization with a competitive advantage.

    We now have a regular training budget, which includes annual professional training from a recognized Canadian food science specialist. A local community college has been very supportive of our organization, becoming a major provider of education and training for us. The Nova Scotia community college system has even used our testimony in their advertising. A graduate of our workplace upgrading has been certified by the American Society for Quality. Another one is enrolled in an industrial mechanics journeyman program. Potential new customers are easily convinced that we are a supplier they should have.

    What's in the future for Avon Foods? Well, being a major exporter to the United States, we must meet all the new bioterrorism and other related importation requirements. We can do it because we have a skilled staff who are ready to accept change. Adapting to a changing regulatory environment is now a normal part of our business.

    Let me give you an example here. Just last season we were able to create a new line of organic apple sauce under severe scheduling and technical challenges. It was achieved on time and without significant difficulties. This was proof to our community that workplace education programs get results. Our processing line is capable of switching to and from kosher production without question.

    The success of this workplace education program would not have been possible without the ongoing help of the Nova Scotia Department of Education and Culture as well as the full support of the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union.

    I suggest to you that there may be more emerging working programs across Canada than is generally realized. These should be supported. Avon's program has been highlighted due to its early beginning but is by no means the end of this process.

    HRDC has an important role to play in upgrading Canadian workers' skills to ensure ongoing employment opportunity and better jobs for, in particular, our mature workforce. This is not an inexpensive process. Funding for workplace skills upgrading is needed and, I am sure, appreciated by participants. Whether they come from the shop floor or from management, this is the kind of program that can produce positive, lasting gains for Canadian industry and Canadian workers as we adapt to the needs of the 21st century marketplace.

    Thank you.

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    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Craswell.

    We'll now move to the Commission scolaire de Montréal. Madame Grenon.

[Translation]

    Ms. Françoise Grenon (Teaching Consultant, Business Services, "Commission scolaire de Montréal"): My name is Françoise Grenon and I am from the Montreal School Board. I represent the Educational and Pedagogical Resource Centre, the CREP, which is an adult training centre.

    For close to 20 years the CREP has been working in partnership with community groups, institutions, unions and companies by providing consultancy services and training programs for a wide variety of adult client groups.

    The business services component of CREP's activities, which I represent, has established a reputation for its training projects in the workplace. This reputation is based not only on the quality of its staff and its pedagogical material, but also on its ability to correctly understand its clients' expectations and to adapt its programming to meet their needs.

    Over the years, we have helped train hundreds of workers for companies such as Noranda Minerals Inc., Kraft, Natrel, Molson, the City of Montreal, the Intercontinental Hotel, the Union of Service Employees, Perkins Papers, and a number of others.

    But are we talking here about literacy programs or basic skills? As a result of our experience with business and our involvement in a number of committees, seminars, conferences and workshops for people who work in this field, we are convinced that we must talk about basic skills rather than about literacy in the case of workplace initiatives.

    The concept of literacy is not in keeping with either the concerns of businesses or with their situation. Generally, companies acknowledge very little responsibility as regards the literacy of their employees. Rather, they tend to view this as a societal and individual responsibility.

    However, companies are concerned about the basic skills level of their labour force if this level is too low to enable companies to make the changes they feel are necessary in order to develop. For example, technological change and the introduction of new ways of organizing work require constant adaptation on the part of employees—hence the need to invest in ongoing training for workers. Mastery of basic skills is thus a major asset for both employees and companies wishing to play an active role in the new economy.

    In addition, literacy training for employees does not produce satisfactory results from the company's point of view if it is not part of an effort to update the knowledge employees require in order to carry out their duties and responsibilities.

    What are these basic skills? It is difficult to achieve unanimity on a definition of the term "basic skills". It ranges from fluency in one's spoken and written mother tongue to an ability to use a microcomputer, and includes problem-solving, working as a team and leadership. Minimal reading, writing and arithmetic skills are the essential prerequisites that enable employees to achieve other levels of skills.

    What will generally force companies to start offering training programs? The trigger that causes companies to take action is an urgent situation where there is a threat of closing down because of inadequate profitability. Another such trigger is a changing work context, where new technologies or processes are being introduced. In these cases companies must embark on a lengthy process of informing and evaluating their employees and devising a training plan geared to the needs of the workplace. All this must be done in cooperation with the unions.

    Training programs of this type have spinoffs, of course. In addition to improving their basic skills as a result of the training program, employees display improved self-confidence, more ease in communicating and a better understanding of instructions. They rediscover their ability to learn and even look at the possibility of getting promotions.

    For the companies, the results can be seen in such things as increased efficiency on the production line, fewer expensive errors and improved labour relations. Companies also achieve the prerequisites required for vocational training programs, and often this was the initial objective in any case.

    In the current context of increased competition, globalization of markets and high standards of quality, basic skills training, or literacy, if you prefer, is one of the important issues to be considered. It is not just large, well-structured companies that get involved in this long training process because they see it as a strategic investment. Small- and medium-sized companies, which cannot cope with the enormous problem of developing basic skills or particularly with their shortage of resources, often prefer to get around the problem by imposing stricter selection criteria and higher academic requirements when they hire new employees.

    The question then becomes: How can we help these companies meet this crying need for basic skills training for their employees?

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[English]

    The Chair: Merci.

    Could we have the representative from Durabelt Inc., please.

    Ms. Ruth Rogerson (Field Officer, Durabelt Inc.): Thank you, Madam Chairman.

    I'm Ruth Rogerson and I'm representing Durabelt. I'm actually a field officer who works with workplace education, so you will notice some similarities between what I will have to say and what Allie has already said. Workplace education did come into being following Nova Scotia's model, so you will find some similarities.

    When I was thinking about what I was going to call my presentation, I thought of--and it took me a couple of days to do this--“Duraschool: The Power of Process and Principles”. “Duraschool” is not my word; it was the choice of the employees who were involved in the workplace education program at the company. It obviously relates to the name of the company, Durabelt, but the “school” part was how they saw themselves as being students again, school being continuous learning, anything that started at birth and continued after that.

    Because we did have a process and because we very much believe in the principles of adult education, the program was very successful. But that being said, it would not have happened without having a champion in the workforce, so we're back to square one, with people obviously being the most important aspect of the program.

    I'll just set the stage for you a bit. Durabelt Incorporated is a small company that employs somewhere between five and 35 people and is located in the eastern part of Prince Edward Island, in Montague. They manufacture customized belt and chain conveyor belting and component parts for vegetable harvesters, so each order is different; each order is customized. The markets are in Canada and the U.S.A.

    At that point back in 1997 they had a very cognizant manager, one who realized that employees had difficulties reading and understanding the work orders. As a result, there was too much waste and too much time spent on rework, which affected the profitability of the company. However, these employees had a very strong work ethic, so the manager was very concerned that he invest in the people he already had. He did use a screening tool to determine where the skill levels of his people were, and then he called the department of education looking for help.

    At that point we became involved. As I said before, because we have a model that identifies what the learning needs are, the gaps could be addressed. What we do is go in and interview everybody personally, or a representation from the company, to identify what the organization's learning needs are. Individual learning needs are assessed informally after that so an instructor can determine where the gaps are and what skills need to be improved. Because the company was so small, the program became inclusive in that they opened it to family members so they would have enough people to run a program.

    There are several reasons why this worked. We used a learner-centred approach. They are on the project team or the committee that runs the program, so they have input from day one. They interviewed and hired an instructor themselves, and it gave them some different skills; I call it “sideways learning”. They had to be the interviewer rather than the interviewee and they had to realize that this is sometimes not any easier than being the one who is being interviewed. This is because you also have to notify the unsuccessful applicants and explain why they weren't hired.

    The principles of adult education were followed. Participation was voluntary. Classes were held on-site. They were held at the plant, and it was very exciting to go back in the evening. The place was lit up. An office was turned into a classroom, there was also the lunchroom on the main floor, plus they had access to all the equipment--not that they used it at night, but it was there. If they wanted to give explanations about how to operate a piece of equipment, they could actually go out on the shop floor and do that.

    We used an asset-based approach, that is, you build on what people already know rather than focusing on what they don't know. Adults are very busy people, and they do not want to spend time relearning what they already know, so you start from what they do know and move on from there.

    The curriculum was customized, and I think that's crucial when you're talking about workplace education. For example, if you're talking about numeracy, as I mentioned before, they make the component parts, so they have a urethane shop, a plastics shop. So if you're talking numeracy and you need to know percentages and proportions, then you use the actual materials from the workplace to teach that.

    Another good example of customized curriculum was simply a map in the manager's office with push-pins stuck in it to identify where their products were distributed. A creative instructor takes that and teaches reading skills, map skills, and numeracy. You can do distance-time rate, mileage, and communication. That's very time-consuming and challenging for an instructor, but it's one of the real reasons why workplace education works. Also it's monitored and evaluated on a regular basis. The team met monthly, so if problems arose they were solved on the spot.

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    Providing workplace education under those circumstances results in a situation where absolutely everybody wins. Right now their warranty and rework is no longer an issue. They have been able to retain the employees they trained.

    I just spoke with the manager last week again. She said if they had not done workplace education they simply would not have been able to keep the employees they now have. The confidence level of the employees has increased tremendously. That confidence can't be disconnected from skills and is a direct result of being competent in what they do.

    The cycle of low literacy in that area, particularly in that company, has been broken. The manager is saying they have a social responsibility to the community, so now when younger people come from the high school--there's a regional high school within walking distance of this company--looking for jobs at Durabelt, she simply says, “Don't come looking for a job. Please tell your friends not to come here. Go back to school.”

    The employees who wrote their grade 12 GEDs and passed them now are saying, “I'm going to make sure my children finish school before they go to work. I don't want them to have to do what I did.” Just being turned on to education again is extremely important.

    They've all taken ownership for their business success. They have just secured their largest contract ever, and they very much worked as a team to accomplish that. As I said, it's been a win situation for absolutely everybody.

    Their recommendations obviously relate to funding. It is very difficult for very small companies to have funding to continue to run programs all the time. There needs to be continuous marketing and promotion of workplace literacy, connecting essential skills with workplace literacy. They are in fact one and the same.

    Their question or concern was, “Show me the money; give us the money directly so we can run programs.” There's something to having pride in what you do and not having to go and ask for money every time you want to do something. They would like to have access to funding to do that.

    As I said, I was back down there last week and I cannot believe the difference in the atmosphere of the company since we were there the last time.

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    The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Rogerson.

    Our next call is from La Ronge Motor Hotel, Saskatchewan.

    Mr. Clarence Neault (General Manager, La Ronge Motor Hotel, Saskatchewan): I'm Clarence Neault. I have a few notes. I'm going to jump around a bit. I was asked to do five minutes. I didn't time myself. I think a closing is important, so if somebody would give me a one-minute warning, that would be appreciated.

    I'll start off with the ready reference I have. It's a direct quote from the Conference Board of Canada, Mr. Kurtis Kitagawa. It's available on the net. It was entertaining to meet the gentleman. He told us things we didn't know. He's a historian by trade.

    I'm hoping that at this meeting today you're able to draw some things out. When I talk to my staff, I call it using the crowbar, trying to find out information they normally wouldn't elicit.

    I'm going to refer to Mr. Kurtis Kitagawa and the things he had to say. He said in his study:

The La Ronge Motor Hotel has converted the reality of operating in a small, northern community into opportunities to enhance its business and develop the skills of its employees.

The La Ronge Motor Hotel plays to the strengths of its Aboriginal workers, by using the vehicle of oral culture to facilitate workplace training, while fitting training around the traditional way of life and the commitment to family that is so strong in Aboriginal culture.

    Of course, that's not everything. He has more to say. I encourage you to look it over to learn more.

    As we moved through our project, I found myself trying to define it. A core value was respect. Workplace learners are adults in our environment in the hotel. We're a full-service hotel with 45 rooms and 75 employees. We're two and a half hours away from the nearest large centre of Prince Albert. We're asking these people to put learning in the workplace and literacy skills on their personal agenda. They have been treated as peers and full partners in order to build trust. They have already experienced many things in life and are very competent.

    But first it has to become possible to them. Then it has to fit into the rest of their life, and this is one of the most important things, so that they can build confidence and then commitment. Then they will make it work. This is their contribution as partners. It has to be in a way that works for them. I call this a training puzzle. We're a model. I do know that training has to fit into the world of the learning partner no matter what. It's an aboriginal community, and a lot of our people speak Cree or Dene as their first language. The area is very strong traditionally and one of the oldest parts of Saskatchewan.

    The idea of cultural sensitivity came up. I've been lucky enough in my seven or eight years there to pick up on some of that. I don't understand it all. I'm still a newcomer. I've learned a few tricks that work, but I don't think there are any rules. I think what works best is just the act of being sensitive to what the worker is looking for.

    That is what works for us, by actually hearing from them and treating them as full partners. The puzzle was solved once we entered into that. We formed partnerships. I came to this area eight years ago. I feel that the north, at least the area I'm in, is far ahead of anything I saw in Saskatoon in the south. People put aside their personal agendas, form partnerships on trust, and move ahead to a successful outcome, and they're willing to do this time and time again.

    Through the blessing of my owners, the Lac La Ronge Indian Band, and my boss, Ray McKay, who is himself a band member and the manager of a corporation called Kitsaki Management, I was given the freedom to do so.

    One minute left. I'm coming.

    With the partnership of the schools, we were able to have a number of pilot projects. They're all literacy based.

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    At the beginning literacy was a tool. It was only an avenue to access money in order to train our one department of housekeeping for national certification. I soon learned that literacy is the avenue and the infrastructure. That's how I see it. Life is not a series of pilot projects. What we need as a small business are programs, because we cannot afford human resources or training like large businesses and we often go without.

    I was lucky because of the things I mentioned--the partnerships we had--to be able to move ahead and show some success. But we still experience failure in other departments, and I see a lot of my peers in other areas struggling as well because we do not have human resource departments, training budgets, or training. We rely on the buddy system and it often fails.

    So we need those things. I guess that is my statement. That's what I'm bowling on. I'll end with that.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Neault. We'll let you poke Ms. Ryder when she.... It would be an interesting way to introduce you.

    Next from National Silicates is Lynda Ryder.

    Ms. Lynda Ryder (Director, Employee Relations, National Silicates): Thank you very much.

    National Silicates is a small chemical company. We were established in 1931 and we're in Toronto. That's where our Canadian headquarters is, but we're part of an American conglomerate, a large company called the PQ Corporation. We are the largest manufacturer of silicate worldwide, although in Canada we're very small.

    Our skills upgrading journey began in 1995 when National Silicates, along with four other industrial chemical companies, joined forces to upgrade the proficiency of our existing employees. The four companies were BASF; Henkel, which is now Cognos; Phillips Environmental; and Praxair.

    Our ultimate goal was to make the skills transferrable across the industry. At our local Responsible Care meeting we realized we had a common concern in that we were having hiring difficulties in our plants, and the role of the process chemical operator had changed, requiring a much higher level of skill than our operators currently possessed.

    We wanted to retain our existing employees, but we realized technical training was required to enhance their productivity and efficiency, with special attention to providing a safe environment for the worker and the community.

    We established what was called the ELPAC, the Etobicoke Liquid Process Adjustment Committee. It was a partnership forged with provincial and federal arms of government, the four companies we started out with, plus the board of education.

    We met for about two years and had many focus group meetings. We developed training needs. We had a survey in which we looked at the core skills the four companies would need. We developed the curriculum. We had a job analysis. We worked with the local college--Humber College--and developed an operator training project, and we looked at each individual company's training objectives.

    Out of the two years of work we now have a self-governed apprenticeship program for our employees called 246 F. But all of the above could not have been done without a partnership among government, labour, and management.

    The first step was that we wanted our employees to succeed, so we had the existing employees tested for literacy, numeracy, and English as a second language. Then, whatever needs they had, they entered into a flexible, self-paced, and interactive training program that developed the skill deficiencies.

    Upon completion of the upgrading, 9 out of our 18 hourly employees were registered in the revised apprenticeship training standards for process operators. To date, four of our employees have been granted a journeyman status and another four are in the process of completing their program.

    This program was innovative in that it was the first ever program of this type for Canada, with the curriculum being developed through joint consultation by a myriad of players. The employees developed the program. They said what the pass mark would be. The government provided a chair and funds and helped us work through the process, plus the board of education.

    Also of note is that all upgrading and literacy training was performed on company time and the employees were paid at an overtime rate to attend the training.

    The benefits for National Silicates have just been amazing. We now have these transferrable skills, and the employees can work in any of the businesses as a chemical process operator. Yesterday I visited Sarnia and talked with the people from Imperial Oil, Praxair, Dow Chemical, and DuPont. Our people can be transferred to work up there. That was one of the benefits.

    Once the employee gets the ELPAC training or receives their apprenticeship status, they receive an extra $1.25 an hour, and then after two years they receive $1.50 an hour more.

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    For the plant, we have reduced our overtime. We have reduced the cost of maintenance in our plants because all employees can work anywhere in the plant. No longer do we have a dissolver operator just working as a dissolver operator. The dissolver operator can see if a pump is broken and can tell us if it needs to be repacked. So the skills throughout the plant have been expanded.

    We are part of an American company, and we're often under the gun to be closed. The productivity in this plant has assured us, every time I get our financial statements, of another spot. It is the diamond in the crown of the PQ Corporation, because we are known as the can-do plant. This plant, whenever a project comes through, will find a way. It will find some way to get the product out of our Toronto, Ontario, plant. So it has helped us keep the jobs in Canada.

    We have a turnover of less than 1%. People said, when you put the program in, you'll lose the people. Less than 1% of our people have left.

    In conclusion, in this time of rapid downsizing, I now sit as the chair of the Ontario Human Resources Chemical Sector Committee, and we bring this program all over Ontario. Our idea is to bring it across Canada, not just to Ontario. We've talked to the Alberta government and to the B.C. government. We want to bring what we have learned to other places in Canada.

    If you want to read anything else, it's in the notes.

    Thank you very much.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    We'll now hear from Palliser Furniture.

    Ms. Valerie Unwin (Language Training Coordinator, Palliser Furniture): Hi. I'm Valerie Unwin. Bon après-midi.

    Palliser Furniture is a large furniture manufacturing company. We have over 5,000 employees internationally and about 3,500 in Winnipeg. What is crucial to our training is that, as coordinators--we have two other coordinators--we spend a lot of time on the plant floor talking to employees and finding out what they need in terms of their training. Approximately 70% of our employees are newcomers, so we have some fairly significant language hurdles to get over.

    What we've tried to do is manage our program so that it parallels what we're doing in the company. We started ESL over a decade ago, and in the last three years we have had advanced ESL, pronunciation tutorials, literacy programs, communication, and leadership. We also are very aware of the partnerships that need to be developed in the community, with government, other industries, and educational organizations.

    One of the things we have focused on is the new hires who come into the company and how we need to support them in order for them to succeed. I've brought a substantial information package, as you can see; please help yourself to a look at it. We're trying to provide the new hire the opportunity to succeed in the workplace, and with that, they will bring many advantages to our company.

    In terms of attending language training classes, all our classes are on-site at Palliser. We have a partnership program with our employees, which means the employees are paid for 50% of their time, and then they contribute 50% of the other half of the class.

    Typically, classes take place the last hour of the shift, and they stay one extra hour after that. These are held twice a week throughout the year.

    This has been very successful, and we train approximately 400 employees a year through this kind of programming. But one of the things we wanted to address was the people who aren't attending classes. Typically, the burden falls on women, because they are unable to stay after work because of child care responsibilities. So we started mini tutorials right on the plant floor. The instructor goes to the employees, either one on one, one on two, or one on three, depending on their language level, and gives them vocabulary that is specific to their job. So if they are new in the job and if they have to know particular terms and phrases, tools and equipment, they will get that attention within the first couple of weeks of starting at Palliser.

    Literacy, of course, is the main hurdle. Obviously, people who are literate in their own language may take a while to become literate in English. So we've developed a photo tool and equipment vocabulary booklet. Again, this was with one of our partners with the provincial government.

    Art DeFehr, our company president, has been tremendously supportive of this and brings a vision to training that I think is reflected in the growth we've had over the years and the success we've had at Palliser.

    Because it's a family owned, Mennonite background company, service to the community is integral to the company. One of the partnerships we've developed is with WASO, which is a sheltered workshop for adults with developmental challenges.

    Actually, I'll just name-drop: Judy Wasylycia-Leis' son is one of the attendees at our workshop, and she says he is really having a good time and is really feeling welcome and a contributing member.

    I think Lynda and Ruth mentioned the importance of math and numeracy. What we're doing, like any big company, is bringing in lots of new equipment.

º  (1600)  

The equipment is digital in nature and often has some kind of keyboard or coded information. It is very important that people can feel comfortable with it, in using a keyboard and in having an input into inventory or into Gainshare, our profit-sharing system. So we've introduced a computer literacy model as well.

    Because we're not one of the major centres, and immigration to Winnipeg is a little less appealing than to Toronto or Vancouver, what we like to feel we're contributing to immigration on a national level is that, while maybe Winnipeg wouldn't have been their first choice to come to settle in, once they do and once they are at Palliser, they are very successful.

    Given that there is a large aboriginal group in Winnipeg, we also realize that we have to look to youths in that group and to feel that they can join our company and have a future if we are to succeed at Palliser. We have been partnering with R.B. Russell Vocational High School, which is an inner-city high school with a very large aboriginal base. We now have a new chair of the aboriginal education and development program at Red River College.

    My last comment in terms of what we're doing to accommodate our employees at Palliser is that we have just got accreditation this past February for an on-site, mature high school diploma program, which we have started for our employees. So employees who now have moved through the stream of ESL and advanced literacy, and who are looking to continue that life-long training process, can come to the on-site class and receive accreditation in grades 9 to 12, depending on their level of course. We also include a computer module in that.

    Thank you very much.

    Please help yourself to one of the large information kits I brought.

º  (1605)  

    The Chair: They will.

    They're just on the back deck.

    Ms. Valerie Unwin: The CD-ROMs, too, are great.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    It's obvious that each of you is involved with a very dynamic workforce and that you're certainly leading by example. I know there will be some interesting questions.

    We're going to start our round with Madame Guay, for six minutes, please.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Thank you, Madam Chair.

    I would like to welcome all of our witnesses. I am pleased that you came to tell us about your literacy programs. I imagine that the reason you are here today is that things are going well where you work and that each of you has a success story to tell us about.

    I would like you tell me whether all the literacy programs provided in your companies are funded by the government, and whether the amounts involved are significant. If you had not received this funding, would you have introduced literacy programs in any case?

[English]

    Ms. Valerie Unwin: We do have some funding from the provincial government. In a one-year period we currently run about 22 classes. Out of those 22, about a quarter are funded at a 50% level. What this allows us or any company in Manitoba to do is encourage companies to initiate new programs and to start pilots. As Clarence said, it's great to have that support, but I think companies need something more than just seed money to start up new and innovative programs. We're also facing cutbacks, like any large company, and we have a substantial budget for education. We appreciate the partnerships we have, and we continue to find new sources in terms of what we can provide for our employees.

    Mr. Clarence Neault: Again, we have nothing permanent. You alluded to pilot projects. There are a series of pilot projects through different kinds of government agencies and associations. We're continually looking for pilot projects focusing more now on training managers, as I have learned.

    Because our training programs will be the first ones to be cut, the only way to have sustainability is to try to get a program to train my trainers, or managers, to be better trainers. That's my best shot at sustainability. I'm looking for more funding for this. It would be nice to have some existing infrastructure for training to be able to help us assure this on a regular basis, so at least we have this happening.

    Ms. Lynda Ryder: When I began the program we were very fortunate to have the partnership with the provincial government and the school board. They worked with us hand in hand throughout the two years, so we had funding, but we went after it. We didn't know how to do that, and it probably took us about two months before we found out exactly how to go about getting it, but once we found out how to go about getting it, we got it.

    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

    Ms. Lynda Ryder: The employees knew they had to go and take this literacy basic training before they could go on to the apprenticeship. They were very pleased to do this. The employees who started the program are still in the program, so I haven't had to retrain anybody, and that's very good. When I'm hiring now, a very small hiring if somebody retires, I'm looking for grade 12.

    So we were very lucky. I'm having a little bit of difficulty now, but I'll figure it out, about how to figure out how to get some funding for this Ontario Chemical Industry Council that I'm working on, but I'm working on that right now.

º  (1610)  

    The Chair: Maybe you're going to sell your manual about how to get money.

    Ms. Lynda Ryder: That's a good idea.

    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

    Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell: In Nova Scotia, Avon got involved in 1991, but the Province of Nova Scotia and Department of Education and Culture was sponsoring a teacher for workplace upgrading, and the teacher was paid for. We went into the unique partnership arrangement right at the beginning and brought the union in, because the union were the people stepping on my toes saying, you're bypassing my people. I was relatively new to the area and to the plant. First of all, they didn't like me for asking for this requirement of education. When I explained to them that we had to have it because of technology changing, they didn't back off on me any more; they said, you can't leave our mature employees behind. So when we did that, we took the partnership, the union got involved, gave money towards the relatively expensive textbooks we used, the materials we used, and the company supplied the rooms.

    We gave them refreshments because we brought people in early--we worked shift work--to the evening shift, for example, and we kept the other ones late at the end of their day shift. So they contributed all their time. Everybody put something in. The Province of Nova Scotia will still pay for the teacher. We've gone on to the next step of training now, instead of education. We're further into training, and we have in our own budget the total cost of that training.

    Ms. Ruth Rogerson: The model we used in P.E.I. is that there is funding for a three-year period on a sliding scale so that we have funding from the NLS, the National Literacy Secretariat, and in-kind services from the provincial government. In the first year of operation we would cover the total cost of the instructor. Then in subsequent years, the company was asked to pay a percentage of that, what they felt they were comfortable with. Hopefully, it's sustainable after three years, but the reality is, it's not. Basic skills were covered and they have changed the hiring requirements to a grade 12, which doesn't necessarily ensure by any means that they're going to get the skills they need, but that's what they've done.

    Also, the company provided learning materials. They bought GED books, they provided other learning materials. Photocopying and all administrative services were covered by them. They provided the space. They provided for the final celebration when it was over each year, and they bought t-shirts; they provided t-shirts with the Durabelt logo on them, and they became quite possessive of those. It was almost like if you didn't take workplace education then you couldn't have a t-shirt.

    We learned our lesson even in celebrating at the end. The first year we had, at a local restaurant, some other government people invited and the participants were not comfortable with that, and some of them didn't come. So we learned a lesson; the next year we asked them what they would like to do and how they would like to celebrate. It was, yes, the company will take us out for dinner, but they brought their spouses with them. We presented certificates and t-shirts and so on, but they were comfortable and that worked.

    So the company did put a lot of money into it, but as I said, the reality is that for a small company you don't have a human resource manager and you don't have funding. There are still some learning needs there that need to be addressed.

º  (1615)  

[Translation]

    Ms. Françoise Grenon: In Quebec, there is always 1 per cent of the total payroll available for this type of expense for companies. Companies can always apply for funding, but it covers material organization costs, such as the cost of the person providing the training.

    Actually, the main problem is the cost of replacing employees on training. If employees are taking their training during their hours of work, they must be replaced on the production line, and companies cannot ask for subsidies for this purpose, because expenses of this type are not covered. Replacing employees is what costs the most. There is an impact on the production line or on the company's internal operations.

[English]

    The Chair: Mr. Malhi, Monsieur Bellemare, and then back to Madame Guay.

    Mr. Gurbax Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, Lib.): Thank you, Madame Chair.

    What can be done to get the message out that literacy and essential skills training in the workplace is good for businesses as well as for the employee? What role should the employers, unions, and the government play in getting that message out to the public?

    Ms. Ruth Rogerson: I would like to respond to that because I believe we have to do a massive campaign. It has to be in the newspaper, it has to be on TV, it has to be on the radio on a continuing basis; it can't be done one month and then forgotten. I think we have to promote workplace literacy and the importance of it, and you can showcase some of these successful companies, but it has to be continually in front of the public so that they are aware of it.

    Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell: From my point of view, being part of a medium-sized enterprise, we don't have an HR department, and if we hadn't gotten into when we did, I don't know if we would know about it if we didn't have the...we were backed against a wall to do it.

    I think there are moves afoot now to improve the advertising of it, but I also think there needs to be some sort of direct funding or incentive funding for especially small and medium-sized enterprises in order for them to get serious about it. Management will spend a lot of money upgrading equipment and setting people aside, and we need to change that because the experience we have is worth a lot to the bottom line of the organization.

    The Chair: Do tax credits also help?

    Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell: Tax credits are one way, but some of those small and medium-sized enterprises may not be that highly taxable and they may need to turn their business around.

    Ms. Lynda Ryder: That's a very interesting question.

    I think it's a culture change. Workplaces don't change overnight. There are big shifts to change around. So doing things a little bit at a time.... I agree with you about celebrating successes, but I think that as an organization you have to say--if you are, for instance, the Quebec government--that you have 1% of your bottom line put aside for training, for all different types of training. I think organizations have to take more responsibility for lifetime learning, and not just for literacy but for all different types of learning. So that's a very big question.

º  (1620)  

    Mr. Clarence Neault: My answer is a little more front line. I believe in all the kinds of things that promote it, but in the end, if I can get my trainers to be trained... Towards the end of all these things I've done, I find out that we have, for retail level first managers--that means my trainers, my department managers. There is actually a literacy-based set of skills called NOC 6211. I'm not too sure I have it.

    I'm in the middle of another project of training my managers, who are excellent leaders, which you can't train, excellent front-line workers, but they don't know anything about how to manage numeracy and basic literacy for the people who train the people. And they're the ones who make it work first-hand. What we need to do is get those people trained. That will make things work. We need some immediate front-line help. That's what's going to work for us. That's what will make it become celebrated by the workers themselves as they bring it to life.

    I'm going to use another language here. It's the only Cree I've learned in the past eight years; I learned it a year ago, and it drives my staff crazy. I'll translate after. Anybody here who's Cree, please correct me.

    [Witness speaks in Cree]

    It means get to work right now and let's not do a messy job.

    Ms. Valerie Unwin: At Palliser the language training program competes in fact with production. We can look at the paper trail we leave that shows that among employees who come to Palliser, if they are enrolled in some type of training, we have a greater retention of those employees.

    But as coordinator I am always competing with production in the company. I have to justify to our production managers why I am training over 400 people a year.

    Tax credits wouldn't hurt. Palliser pays a huge amount of money to maintain these programs. I'm the coordinator. I don't do anything else but coordinate language training. I can understand the smaller companies when they say what difficulties they have going after funds and partnerships.

    It's great to have awards. Senior management loves to see the company name in the newspaper. When CBC TV comes in and interviews some of our employees, that's all great. But I think we do have to have a greater partnership with government to provide, I think as Lynda said, resources to businesses so that the concept of lifelong learning isn't just a cliché, because we are training people outside of the regular school system and in fairly basic skills.

[Translation]

    Ms. Françoise Grenon: Companies are not always aware of the problems caused when employees lack certain skills: production problems and related costs, for example. If benefits of this type were made more accessible to employees, and if the approach and the results obtained were better known, I am sure that more companies would offer training programs of this type. In my opinion, this is what must be promoted first and foremost when it comes to skills.

    People often attribute basic skills problems to personal deficiencies, when in fact it is also a problem to be dealt with by the company and by society. Everyone would be a winner with these training programs, and all those who take the training would become better citizens.

    We also have to tell people how to go about getting these training programs. People call because they have problems: they have sustained a drop in production, or they have purchased a new machine and the employees are not able to take the training program, for example. Training people to use digital controls and all the rest is a very good idea, but when we are dealing with people who did not finish their high school education, problems do occur. In these cases, we have to refresh these people's knowledge and restore in them a desire to learn.

    People in basic skills courses do not learn just basic skills, they also improve their self-esteem and sense of worth. I think this is what should be promoted.

º  (1625)  

[English]

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Bellemare, and then Madame Guay.

[Translation]

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans): Thank you, Madam Chair.

    I'll probably need to come back on a second round. Let me start with funding.

    One per cent of the payroll is devoted to training, but not necessarily to basic skills.

    Ms. Françoise Grenon: It can be for anything.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Do the provincial and federal governments make contributions under a partnership arrangement? For example, in the case of the one per cent that they receive...

    Ms. Françoise Grenon: One per cent of the payroll is invested in training.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Do the provincial and federal governments make further contributions to this amount?

    Ms. Françoise Grenon: It is always possible to apply for additional funding, particularly in the case of basic skills training. Such an application is submitted to a committee and may be accepted. They may decide to give a grant for a small part of the project rather than the entire project. But once again, they often hire us to start up the project, particularly in the case of small- and medium-sized businesses. It is hard for them to determine how to go about getting supplementary funding.

    Often, everything may be set up and functioning well as far as training costs go, but there's the problem of work schedules. Often a person may have worked 35 or 40 hours and it is almost unthinkable to expect this person to come in on Saturday morning or to stay after working hours. One can't really be receptive after a full day of work. So training takes place during working hours in the industry, the person is let off work, but he or she has to be replaced on the assembly line and that is what costs a lot of money.

    For big businesses this is a strategic investment that will eventually result in a financial return and it's easier for them to deal with the inconvenience. But when it comes to small business, then they need to have more people. They don't necessarily have the pool of employees required to replace people on training. When we carry out assessments, we are surprised to see what the requirements are, particularly in the case of people who are 40 and over.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: There are a number of provinces that jealously guard their jurisdiction over education, and I'm not referring to Quebec alone. Ontario and other provinces do the same thing. What role can the federal government play when it comes to basic education in the workplace? Should they provide financial assistance to unions or companies?

    Ms. Françoise Grenon: In my opinion, helping business also means helping society. If an employee goes shopping for groceries and knows nothing about proportional calculation, if he is unable to make practical use of such knowledge, he may be good at doing his job but what about everyday living? If he is lacking in certain skills and has a chance to make up for this, then he should take the opportunity.

    In my opinion, this responsibility does not lie solely with the employer. The company will have problems if it has this kind of worker, but is each individual's personal journey the employer's sole responsibility? I wonder. Of course, the individual is the one who experiences the problem and he or she must decide to change.

    In the case of Bristol-Myers, quality standards are very high. A person's life may be at stake if the criteria relating to employee skills are not set sufficiently high. So now the selection process increasingly occurs at the moment of hiring. There is a whole segment of society that will not be able to work and these people will be looking for funding, which in their instance will have to be personal.

º  (1630)  

[English]

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: I have so many questions.

    The Chair: I know, but we're going to have to go through this.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: May I continue then?

    The Chair: No, you've finished your questions. We're going to allow the witnesses to finish their responses and then we're going to go to another round, and if we have time, we'll come back to you.

    Ms. Unwin.

    Ms. Valerie Unwin: I want to add to what Françoise was saying. You know the phrase, “you can pay for it now or you can pay for it later”. We tend to think of people who need essential skills in the workplace as somewhat of a marginal group.

    The statistic was provided last year at the Conference Board workshop in Calgary that by 2011, 100% of our workforce population will be from immigration.

    We are no longer replacing workers who are Canadian-born. So however you want to look at it, we have to train people. And what has been typically seen as a stereotypical methodology for training people isn't going to work any more. Even when people do come from outside of Canada, they're moving around a whole lot within Canada, anyway, and we need a population who can quickly acclimatize, whether it's in French or English, or perhaps in Cree if they're going up north. Basically we have to have a workforce that has essential and basic skills that we can measure across the country. And right now we don't have that.

    Now how that's redressed in terms of government funding... but a national program that provinces.... And I can't speak to how provinces fund their programs, because I'm not a provincial worker, but there has to be some equity so that smaller provinces or provinces that don't typically draw from the large percentage of newcomers to Canada have more of an equal access to those workers and want those workers to succeed.

    Ms. Lynda Ryder: I think your question is, how do the federal and provincial governments work together? I was fortunate in the project that I worked on. I had moneys from both the federal and provincial governments, and they worked very well together. In fact, when I had finished one training program, the other one came in. I think that somehow there needs to be some sort of an information repository so that one organization doesn't get all the funds, so that the provincial and federal governments talk to one another so that they know what's going on. That's the only thing.

    Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell: I think the only comment I would add there is that we have to work with partnerships. I found that in the partnership arrangement we worked with, everybody submitted something to the bottom line of the success of the organization.

    As an example, my organization is a subsidiary of a larger food processor in Canada. Very often I have calls from Quebec and Ontario to go to speak to the quality managers and the plant managers to explain to them why our customer complaints are reducing while everyone else has an increase in customer complaints. Every time I go I tell them it's because of our workplace education and training.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: My--

    The Chair: You're way over again.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: But I have the proxy from my five Liberal colleagues.

    The Chair: No, it doesn't work that way. I don't have them here. It's a nice try.

    Madame Guay.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay: Mr. Bellemare, don't try to cheat. Let me say, in the spirit of friendship, Mr. Bellemare, that I am very happy that provinces keep jealous watch over their provincial jurisdiction in the field of education.

º  (1635)  

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: They are not doing a good job.

    Ms. Monique Guay: They do good work in Quebec, and I think that it is the only province where 1 per cent of the payroll goes to training. That does not exist in the other provinces. It is important because there is a huge requirement for manpower training.

[English]

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: We may have a little debate because I'm a franco-Ontarian.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay: Excuse me, Mr. Bellemare, it is my turn to speak.

    I also think it is very important to talk about basic skills rather than literacy. We met several witnesses who said, among other things, that when we talk about literacy with people who really have problems, that immediately puts them on the defensive. A better approach would be to gradually integrate them and respect them for who they are and for their skills.

    You can a lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. One of our witnesses, an aboriginal person, told us about an old man whose goal was to write his name, and that was all. When he managed to write his name, he withdrew from the literacy program because he had reached his ultimate goal. So, everyone has his own abilities, and I think that should also be respected.

    I referred earlier to the 1 per cent. I think it is possible to have partnership programs, while at the same time respecting our own jurisdictions. In Quebec, manpower training falls under provincial jurisdiction, as does education. That is very important to us. It took us years to reassert our control over training.

    Of course it would be possible to encourage the big companies that make an effort to provide training and literacy programs to their employees. Have you ever thought of offering a tax credit, for example? I would like you to give me your views on that.

[English]

    Ms. Lynda Ryder: I think a tax credit would be a good idea.

    We're a small chemical company. When we started getting involved in our training programs, the way I could sell it to my management was that the government would pay for these training programs. This was perhaps 15 or 17 years ago. If I hadn't come with paper in hand to my management and said that these programs would be paid for, I'm sure I couldn't have got it passed.

    So we received money. They did a gap analysis in our organization on where they thought we needed some training done. Once the training needs assessment was done, they recommended training and the government paid for it. I knew I couldn't get it by the company myself if it wasn't paid for outside.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay: I mention a tax credit because I don't think it is possible to have a pan-Canadian program. I really do not think that is possible.

    I see that each of you have different ways of offering literacy or training programs in your firms based on individual needs. It is not possible to do that everywhere. I think we should forget about that idea. The tax credit might be easier, because then an assessment can be made and a percentage can be given for a given sector or for a certain level of success. It is possible to assess a program; that is different.

    Ms. Françoise Grenon: There has to be a tax credit for basic training, because even if 1 per cent of the payroll is used for training, that does not mean that preference is given to basic training. One per cent is not really very much, when you think of it, and that money is often used for very sophisticated training, such as for a course on how to use a new machine or a course for engineers.

    It is easier to give time off to an engineer than to the average worker because that has no effect on the assembly line. The population is aging and in a few years those people will have to work, but right now, the situation is being handled by setting the bar higher at the hiring end, rather than training existing workers.

    In my view, there should be an awareness program to encourage companies to invest in that so that they can reap the rewards and understand how things are done. They must be shown that it is possible, that it is not as difficult as they think and that there is a way to go about it. If there were a tax credit for basic training and not just for training... If these people worked rather than being unemployed, that would be a step in the right direction. They would be integrated. Think of allophones as an example. At least it would not be an allowance to have them stay at home, but money for them to go and work in a business. It is not fair to the company to have to take care of those people and integrate them. This is all part and parcel of total integration.

º  (1640)  

[English]

    Mr. Clarence Neault: Class credits, as you say, are hard to measure. It's difficult to do, but it's a sign of leadership, and I think, somehow applied, it may be a way of rewarding perhaps the real partners, some of our learners--as we said, having a reward system that goes out and recognizes people in the workplace as eligible for rewards, not only at schools. Scholarships, your type of scholarship, is something that perhaps could be entered into. That would do more to promote it and show that nationally there's some effort involved.

    I'll use the example of what works. Is that okay? We have provincially, for tourism education, the Saskatchewan Tourism Education Council. There are a number of partners right across Canada but they're administered by a national body, the Canadian Tourism Human Resource Council. Whether that's federal or not federal, you know when it's working. It has the federal perception. We have provincial perception.

    We already have a thrust in bringing training, in some way, and standards to our industry. A lot of it is small business and a lot of it is in dire need and unable to do it itself. It's through their efforts, to be quite honest, that a lot of it got done. They were the first steps, married up with other programs. Regardless of the mechanisms of that, it worked, and the perceptions are there: federal and provincial.

    There's a model, one that works. Perhaps take it a step further and give them, the working partners, the tools they need to get more done at the front-line level.

    The Chair: Is there anybody else?

    Mr. Bellemare, then, I'll give you my time. I'm only going to take six minutes. I know you're not going to go over my six minutes, so you go.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Madam Chair, I would like to ask you this question first, a question on procedure.

    Since our meetings are two hours long and we still have a good half-hour to go, how much of that time can I use?

    The Chair: I gave you my six minutes.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Okay.

    I appreciated the kind words of my colleague from the Bloc Québecois, Monique Guay, who says she likes me very much. It's reciprocal, even though we don't share the same philosophies.

[Translation]

    Ms. Monique Guay: [Editor's Note: Inaudible]

[English]

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: She reminded me about the provinces guarding the education system like a real hound. I recall, as a former principal of one of the largest adult day schools in this province of Ontario, that the provinces, at least in Ontario, are responsible, Madam Chairman, up to the age of 21, within the framework of elementary and secondary school levels.

    Given that fact, should we, in the federal government, aim at anyone above 21, at least for the province of Ontario and possibly 18 for other provinces, if that's the case, then take over adult education? What would be your impression of that? Or am I starting something here?

    Ms. Valerie Unwin: What do you mean by “take over”?

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: In other words, make the statement first that the provinces are not doing their work, not doing the job. They're doing a bad job because of dropouts. What is the rationale and the reason for all these dropouts?

    It's not just a one-way street. We are federally responsible for bringing in refugees. Immigrants are not a problem, in my mind, because of the system they have to go through. But refugees, I know for a fact from wearing another hat as a former city councillor, are a strain on the welfare rolls. Therefore, I feel the federal government has a responsibility in training for the workplace, and not just in life skills, these adults who are refugees. I'm assuming here that they're mostly adults. I've never seen any youth refugees; I've seen just adults.

    What is your comment on my presentation here?

º  (1645)  

    Ms. Valerie Unwin: With all due respect, I don't think taking over on a national level makes sense. Everyone is here today because they've had so much success in administering their own program. I'll just speak for Palliser, but the success of our program is based on the kind of company we have and the kind of people who are coming into our workforce, which is unique to Winnipeg.

    I think industries know best where they need to train their employees, so I'll only speak in terms of workplace language training. I can't speak about people who are dropping out of the secondary-level school system.

    Really, industry knows who has to be trained. Through needs assessment, they also know when they can accommodate that training. A lot of people, as Françoise and Monique were saying, after working a 40-hour week, particularly on a plant floor, whether male or female, don't have a lot of energy left over to attend classes in the evening or on the weekend. The reality is most people who are working at an entry level in a factory have more than one job; they usually have one and a half jobs. My own personal opinion and experience is that industry is the best indicator of how employees need to be trained and how to provide that training.

    The Chair: Does anyone else have a comment?

    Ms. Lynda Ryder: I'd just like to mention that literacy can escape a lot of things. The school system is one of them. I've seen people who have come through the school system and have passed grade 12 and have diplomas but can't read the diploma. I worked with an organization called LAMP, where a gentleman said, “I can't read my diploma and I have a grade 12 diploma.”

    If you are saying the government should take over...I think illiteracy is something that is well hidden. It's hard for people to find. Even in the workplace you'll find that people are very clever at hiding whether or not they can write their names; they're very clever. But if they have a need for a job, as Valerie said, or if they have to earn a living, or if all of a sudden they don't feel ashamed, they'll come out. But I think it would be too difficult for the government to take that on.

    Ms. Ruth Rogerson: I think we have to be careful here. Workplace literacy has different faces, depending on where you are.

    We are the smallest province, I know, and probably for that reason we don't have any immigrants, or very few. ESL is not an issue in workplace literacy for P.E.I. Job opportunities simply aren't there, so if we do have immigrants, they'll stay for language training and then they'll move to a larger centre to get work. So our workplace literacy can look different from that in other provinces.

    The school system can function quite well, but if people don't use those skills.... Let's take numeracy, for example. If you don't use it and you work for ten years and haven't had to use it, and then your job changes so that now you need those skills, it wasn't that the school system didn't function well; it's simply that people forget. When they're retrained they'll learn it faster, but I don't think we necessarily have to look at the school system negatively and say, “They're not doing their job.”

    Another concern I have is probably a concern more from a personal standpoint. I was a high school teacher. I was also an adult educator. Now I'm in workplace education. I went from being a student to being a teacher, and the only experience I ever had in business was summer jobs when I was a student. So when I moved into workplace education and had to go to companies--and Durabelt was the very first one I went to--I went with great fear and trepidation. I shall never forget walking in the door of this company and thinking, “What am I doing here?” That's why I needed that process and those principles behind me, to make it work.

    Someone said: “You are an educator. What do you know about business?” I said, “Well, I certainly know a lot more about business now than I did before.” But what I'm saying is, as educators we may go from classroom to classroom without a lot of business experience. In the classroom, I may not have realized how important some of these workplace skills were.

    I may not have realized what they were. Technical writing, for example, for the workplace is not the same as analyzing Shakespeare or writing an essay. Maybe I have to write a letter or I have to write a report. Somebody's income or somebody's life may depend on what I put in this report. It has to be brief and it has to be accurate, and maybe I don't have the skills to do it, but now it's a requirement of my job.

    So I think businesses, probably in partnership with educators, are the ones who decide what the needs are.

º  (1650)  

    Mr. Clarence Neault: Thank you for the challenge. Of course, “take over” always raises up a little of people's defensiveness. That's great, it's fantastic, and it is usually challenges that get people moving ahead. But the answer is, how can you support it and lead?

    There is actually a lack of leadership. I guess I best saw it working with a literacy coordinator for our area, that what worked in the past was always having it in the workplace, for people on the worksite or trying to get back on the job. There used to be in the past, eight years ago, regular funding for a four-day-a week, literacy drop-in centre, open at the time workers could attend.

    That disappeared. Some programs exist on ongoing literacy funding under the guise of pilot projects. I said, “Why don't we have any more?” After about three years of work, she finally told me this year it's because we lost all of our permanent funding for that important tool. I almost gave her a slap because, I said: “You mean you had the answer--we just can't afford it.”

    There's one solution: strong leadership and making sure the basic essentials are available--simple things like that. I think you'll find answers from people who deliver literacy to adults in the colleges. They understand that those are the kinds of things: strong leadership, ensuring that infrastructure--literacy as infrastructure--is dealt with.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Madame Chair, how much more time do I have?

    The Chair: I'm going to let Ms. Grenon answer, and then I have some witnesses who have to leave to catch planes, Mr. Bellemare. You've had 19 minutes for questioning, so don't think I haven't given you enough time.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: But I didn't get 19. I got three minutes and they got--

    The Chair: Your questions were so provocative they required that time to--

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: You should see the rest.

    The Chair: I'm sure you have more. I'm going to let Ms. Grenon respond. Then, Mr. Bellemare and Madame Guay, if you don't mind, I'm going to give each of our panellists two minutes to wrap up. Then we'll call it a day. Okay? Thank you.

[Translation]

    Ms. Françoise Grenon: You asked whether the governments had done a good job in the field of education. I do not see things that way. It is important to look a little at what happened in the past few years. In my view, 20 years ago, no one could have foreseen the technological evolution that occurred. Among those who graduated 20 years ago, no one could have predicted what was going to happen to industry today. The change has been radical. Knowledge is somewhat like exercise: if you don't exercise regularly, you get out of shape. Well, the same applies to knowledge. A graduate may have passed his courses and know how to get on in life, but the evolution was so fast on the technological front. Businesses have new needs because they receive new machinery, because they want to increase their production, etc. So they invest in basic skills. I do not think anyone could have predicted that 20 years ago. I do not think it is simply a matter of telling them they did not do a good job.

º  (1655)  

[English]

    The Chair: I'm going to ask if any of you have any closing comments, and I'm just going to go in reverse order from the first.

    Valerie, do you have any final comments you'd like to leave with us?

    Ms. Valerie Unwin: Our experience at Palliser--we call it the rapid response system for training--is that we don't institutionalize training. We have to adapt to a changing workforce and new machinery. I like Clarence's idea that government has to support, not lead.

    Just in terms of adult literacy, grassroots works best because that's where people understand what their needs are. They're adults. They come to the table once they've identified their needs themselves. That is still a huge hurdle for people to get over, but once they do, they are very good in assessing what they need in terms of training.

    Change has to come from the bottom going up, and I think the government's role is to support that grassroots movement and success stories like those of the people around the table today.

    Ms. Lynda Ryder: I disagree a little bit because I feel the pressure to learn has not come from the employees, it has come from outside. It has come from competitive forces that have made us have the best-trained workforce. If we hadn't been on top of what had to be done, we could have closed our doors.

    Industry has to be cognizant of what is needed for the future, and the partnerships we currently enjoy with both the provincial and the federal governments should, I believe, continue. I like the idea of a tax credit. I think it would be a very good thing.

    Mr. Clarence Neault: I hope you used a crowbar on me and some of the other people enough today, that you learned some things, and that it added some value.

    Again, I guess I've been moving from the front line, and to me it always keeps it real. To keep all the monsters we deal with in a way we deal with them.... They've been very sensitive to who they are and how we could deal with them by listening very closely. I think it's through forums like this one here, where you reach down and find out what works and then create as many avenues as possible....

    I don't know what the bridges are. Our association seems to be them, so I continue to look to them for answers. The Conference Board of Canada has offered a lot of insight. If we can act upon those types of things in a way that's acceptable to all the partners, then we can move ahead.

    In the end it's education. You can't legislate or tax credit success. It has to be education.

    Ms. Ruth Rogerson: I could write a book.

    I think it's a real shift in thinking on everyone's part to realize--we do realize it, but we have to do more about it--that education does not end with a degree, a diploma; it continues lifelong and is driven very much by changes in the workplace. So that needs to be funded.

    I'm also happy to hear the discussion about life skills training in the so-called soft-core skills. I was involved in that many years ago and it's almost like it has come full circle. When I think of a couple of the projects that I'm currently working on, it's a combination of what I would call your hard-core skills, yes, they need to improve very specific workplace skills, but they need life skills training, they need interpersonal skills. They don't lose their jobs perhaps because they don't have the actual workplace skills, but someone may lose them because they can't get along with their co-workers.

    They won't ask for this training because they don't know it exists and they don't know where to go or what to ask for. So I'm happy to see what I would call a renewed interest in that area.

»  (1700)  

[Translation]

    Ms. Françoise Grenon: I think the people who were here today proved that investing in basic training was worthwhile and well worth the trouble. All the clients I have worked with have benefited from it.

    Of course not all businesses have the same internal structure, the same human resources or the infrastructure required to encourage all that and to offer those courses, or even the time to do so, because one must always remember that time is money. Setting that up requires a lot of time and effort. However, when that time and effort is invested, it produces results. Those results are good for the company and for everyone. Of course, it is much easier when people join forces to create the ideal conditions.

    I hope there will be some form of credit or that the sectoral committees will be encouraged to develop tools to help smaller firms that may be having trouble. That has started to happen in Quebec. The sectoral committees take training needs into account.

    Of course it is more difficult to train three or four employees, but if a larger group can be formed... You can't compare training in schools with training in industry. Our diagnostic tools are different and everything is based on productivity and need. We do not use the same assessment tools for every company because the basic skills in one company are not necessarily the same ones as in another.

    In summary, as I said at the beginning, it is a matter of improving access to basic training for all companies, be they large or small.

[English]

    Mr. Albert (Allie) Craswell: The one observation I've made over the last 12 years is that this upgrading of workplace education is really not a cost, it's an investment. If we can think along the lines of it being an investment.... We had a federal investment tax credit that I believe worked very well. A tax credit of some nature may work as an incentive, but I say only as an incentive; it's not the end-all and do-all.

    The other thing--Ruth mentioned something that sort of touched a sensitive area in me--is that the school system has no experience in business. A lot of the educators are not familiar with how business operates or what business needs are. If we think about our bodies needing oxygen to survive, businesses need profits to survive and to reinvest. If the employees are not thinking along the same lines and do not understand that basic need of a business, it will not be there; it will suffocate. We need the people trained in skills, but we also as business...we have probably been slack in not getting ourselves associated with the educators.

    I will turn now to the Province of Nova Scotia. I have to say that I believe the Province of Nova Scotia has done an excellent job in workplace education. I'm probably a bit biased, being from there, but I have sat on the committee since its inception. I've asked to leave, and they've told me the only way I can leave is with a doctor's certificate to the effect that I can no longer get there.

    We have people from different parts of the province who meet regularly. The workplace education program is set up in regions, and people meet regularly in different parts of the province and visit different sites. We then identify places that may need our help.

    It's not always the government person who goes in. I've gone and talked with businesses that were skeptical about the workplace education program. I've gone and met with their management and with their HR people as a volunteer through the committee along with the province.

»  (1705)  

    The Chair: I want to thank each and every one of you for appearing. I know you're going to follow the progress of this committee, and I know you'll be anxious to read our report.

    You talked about putting a lot of effort in it and hoping you get some measurables out of it. Certainly, those of us who have been seized with this whole issue of literacy are very much hopeful our report will indeed prove to be something that's profitable for you and for the folks you serve. We're looking forward to getting down to our recommendations, and your presentations today will help us in making those recommendations.

    I thank you all.

    For those of you who are flying out, have a safe flight.