JUST Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND HUMAN RIGHTS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA JUSTICE ET DES DROITS DE LA PERSONNE

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, May 4, 2000

• 0943

[English]

The Chair (Mr. Andy Scott (Fredericton, Lib.)): Seeing quorum, I'd like to call this meeting to order. Once again we're dealing with Bill C-3, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts.

Our good friend Monsieur Bellehumeur has the floor on a motion, I believe—if I can remember—calling on the minister to—

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Indeed, as you have so well expressed it, the motion under study today—I think we're now at 14, 15, 16 or 17 hours of study—reads as follows:

That the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights postpone clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-3, An Act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts, in order to allow the federal Minister of Justice and Attorney General to appear before the Committee, explain her many amendments, and answer our questions.

• 0945

Mr. Chairman, it is one thing to write letters to newspapers and to answer in the House, in 30 seconds, a 30-second question and to be able to say almost anything in the chosen manner. But to appear before the committee to answer questions from opposition MPs is quite another matter. My motion does not specifically mention the number of hours, but I want the Minister to know that, when she appears, she should not be pressed by time. It would be preferable if she did not have any other engagement for that day because she will be with us for a long time.

After 25 or 30 hours of presentations and exchanges with the Minister, we will probably have completed our study of the issue but more importantly she will probably have been made to see that Bill C-3 is not the answer. I have been attempting from the beginning to explain the reasons why the Minister should not proceed with this bill.

This morning, Mr. Chairman, I will start by providing you with a short quotation which you can think over during the weekend. It reads as follows:

When children are seen as bandits, as future criminals instead of the future and the hope of a nation, all is not well and above all a government who perceives them as such is sick.

I have just quoted myself, Mr. Chairman. When I said this, all agreed that youths were indeed the future, the hope of a nation or a people. That is not however reflected in Bill C-3. This bill stigmatizes young people and does all it can to prevent them from straightening out.

The issue of juvenile delinquency is extremely important. I ask you to think back to your own youth and childhood. Some of us went to the very limits of what was acceptable and others exceeded those limits, but each of us has a certain knowledge of what it is to be delinquent, to deviate slightly from the right track. We were not all angelical when we were young. One must understand that this is part of growing up.

Mr. Chairman, I will quote you a small extract from a book. If I have the time, I will read it this weekend and next week or the following week, I will try to give you a brief summary. The book seems very interesting. I will read you an passage just to give you a taste. Perhaps you will be intrigued enough to get it. The book entitled "Jeunes Délinquants ou Jeunes Criminels: le phénomène de la criminalité chez les adolescents" was written by Michel-Louis Pelletier and published by Éditions Saint-Martin in 1999. While leafing through, I found the following paragraph in chapter VIII, which deals with adolescence and delinquency. I only wish to show you how interesting it seems. The author says, on page 129:

The teenage years are a period of paradox and, for many adults, a source of confusion. Yet, if they could only remember their own youth, the rebelliousness and delinquency associated with adolescence would give them a sense of déjà vu! Today as in the past, delinquency is but a passing phenomenon for the majority of youths interviewed.

For boys and, more and more, for girls, adolescence frequently coincides with the apparition of delinquent behaviour, such as shoplifting, petty theft, vandalism, assault, drug use and trafficking, etc. Most teenagers can go through the first two stages of criminal acculturation and decide to cease delinquent activity and to straighten out when they reach adulthood. Most of the time this delinquency goes unnoticed: there are no arrests and no interventions.

• 0950

We see of course more delinquency and problems in families living below the poverty line, in families having problems with employment, with drug use, with different things. But we also see delinquency and social problems in children from well-to-do families. There may be less of them, but the phenomenon is not limited to the poor.

Very often, teenagers, especially those who have difficulties or delinquent behaviour and come from well-to-do families, have a much better chance to pull through because more often than not one parent is not working and stays at home and parents have more time to devote to their young. They have enough money to consult psychologists, psychiatrists and social workers without going through the system. These youths have perhaps a better chance of pulling through, but delinquency affects all classes of society.

Thus, families who are better off have the means to go through this difficult period. The others, those who have difficulty to make ends meet and very often do not even have money to feed their children before school, cannot afford specialists' and social workers' fees. They do not have the means or the time to invest time and money in their teenager, preoccupied as they are by all sorts of problems. Unfortunately, this will lead to an increase in their teenager's delinquency. By the time this child is 15, 16 or 17, he or she will have gone from shoplifting to perhaps robbing the corner store.

The Minister's way of helping these young persons is Bill C-3. I say: “No, Madam Minister. You are on the wrong track.” I am not the only one to say so, Mr. Chairman. There is in Quebec a large consensus that the Minister is barking up the wrong tree with her Bill C-3.

Today, I will attempt once more, in the three hours that were given to me, to convince MPs on the other side to ask the Minister to appear once more, to make a humble gesture and to discuss the issue with me, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

The Chair: Excuse me, Mr. Bellehumeur. Did I understand you to say that in the course of today you were going to try to convince the committee to ask the minister to come? You understand, of course, that in order to do that we would have to vote.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Yes, I know. I understand, Mr. Chairman, but I would still like to finish saying what I was saying and then you will understand. You can have your say later.

[English]

The Chair: Okay.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: In those three hours, I will try to convince my colleagues on the other side of the table to ask the Minister, as the motion says, to appear before the committee. However, Mr. Chairman, to make sure I am able to persuade those MPs to vote in favour of my motion, I will need more than three hours.

I will go on. I will ask for a vote when I'm sure I have their support. It reminds me of the next referendum in Quebec: the provincial government will hold it only when it is sure of winning. I will ask for a vote when I am sure that my motion will be agreed to, Mr. Chairman.

I hope you are not pressed for time in the case of my motion, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

The Chair: Perhaps I could make a proposal. Since we're waiting for winning conditions, and I have heard, over the course of the last 15 or 16 hours, the member refer very much to the value he places in consensus, I think it's a fair reading of the committee in conversations I've had that we may perhaps wish to delay our work on Bill C-3 momentarily. In fact, I understand that the chair of the subcommittee on organized crime is prepared to convene their first meeting next week.

• 0955

I think everyone is aware of the fact that next Wednesday afternoon the minister is appearing before the main committee on main estimates, so would it be fair, in my reading of the room, to suggest that we could—I want to try to get the right verb here—adjourn to the call of the chair? Mr. Bellehumeur has the floor when we resume discussion on Bill C-3.

I understand from the chair of the organized crime committee that they will be meeting on Tuesday, and we'll be meeting on Wednesday afternoon to hear the minister on main estimates.

I would again reassure Mr. Bellehumeur that when we come back to our task on Bill C-3, we will be welcoming his continuation, but I would urge him in the meantime to take advantage of the opportunity he will have to continue in an informal way to try to convince our colleagues of the merits of his argument.

Does that seem fair, Mr. Bellehumeur?

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: That is a very good idea, Mr. Chairman.

Do I understand that the study of my motion will resume on Thursday?

[English]

The Chair: No. On Tuesday the committee on organized crime will meet. On Wednesday we will meet in the main committee with the minister on main estimates. Then perhaps we'll see what happens in terms of the deliberations of the committee on organized crime on Tuesday and we'll make a decision on Wednesday. Does that seem fair?

Monsieur Bellehumeur, we're all wanting to make sure that we—

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Chairman, as long as I have the assurance that we will resume study of Bill C-3, that I will have the floor and that I shall be able to continue to talk of my motion, I have no objection.

[English]

The Chair: Yes, you have my personal commitment.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: By then, I will have had the time to read the book and will be able to brief you on it upon my return.

[English]

The Chair: That is exactly what prompted this revelation.

On that happy note, the meeting is adjourned until Wednesday afternoon, with main estimates.

I'll remind everybody that the organized crime committee will be meeting for their first meeting at 9:30 on Tuesday.

A voice: And CCRA on Monday.

The Chair: And CCRA on Monday, so we're still a happening group.

The meeting is adjourned.