[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, September 21, 1995

.0934

[English]

The Chairman: Order. We're going to have a short meeting today. The sole purpose of the meeting today and our getting together is to deal with the conference that is set for October 2 in Winnipeg. Yesterday at steering committee we discussed the budget for people who would go to this. We determined that instead of having eighteen members leaving there would be a maximum, including staff, of maybe six people going. There might be three or four from the opposition and government and two staff members going to it.

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Initially we looked at a budget in the range of $30,000. We're asking today that the committee approve a maximum budget of $5,000 for this, and that is the purpose of this.

This then has to go to.... The clerk knows better. It goes somewhere for approval. It goes into the bowels of government for approval.

The committee of the who? Where does it go?

The Clerk of the Committee: Normally we send the budget proposal to the budget subcommittee of the Liaison Committee. The problem is that the Liaison Committee will not be constituted for a week. So I'm going to find a way to get the money.

Ms Torsney (Burlington): May I ask for a clarification?

The Chairman: Yes.

Ms Torsney: On this we have three minus one point equals two, and three minus two equals one.

The Chairman: That's because some of the members will use their travel points rather than having to draw on the budget.

Ms Torsney: Why wouldn't all the members use their travel points?

The Chairman: I hope that all will, but first we'll see who's going and we'll see if some have the -

Ms Torsney: We just got an accounting. I think most of us have a lot of extra travel points.

The Chairman: I hope they will. That's why we're saying that we want a maximum of $5,000 approved. Maybe less than that will be spent.

Mrs. Ablonczy, we started and I'm not sure if you had the opportunity to talk to Mr. Ramsay about the conference in Winnipeg.

Mrs. Ablonczy (Calgary North): Yes, we talked about that.

The Chairman: Yesterday we had a draft budget, and after discussion at the steering committee yesterday it was determined that probably a maximum of six people would be attending. Since some of the members would travel on travel points, there would be two staff attending there. If members of any of the parties didn't attend, then they would be informed as to what took place and be provided with materials that would become available and also briefed on what took place during the session we're scheduled for.

The estimate has been reduced from $30,000. We're asking the committee to approve a budget of $5,000 maximum, because some or all of the members who will go to it will be travelling on travel points and the cost will be reduced substantially.

Mrs. Ablonczy: I have a question about that. It has been my experience that you have to book well ahead in order to travel on travel points. Is that not correct? Has everyone booked ahead?

Ms Torsney: The day before is all you really need.

Mrs. Ablonczy: Is that right? Okay.

Ms Torsney: They should be able to get you a ticket quite quickly.

Mrs. Ablonczy: Okay. That's great. We certainly have travel points.

Ms Torsney: The 64 points, those points.

Mrs. Ablonczy: Yes.

The Chairman: Especially for the western MPs -

Mrs. Ablonczy: I'm sorry. You're not talking about air miles?

Ms Torsney: No.

The Chairman: No. We're talking about the travel points, not the air miles.

So that's the purpose of this. If there's no more need for explanation or anything to go into it, then I shall entertain a motion to -

Mrs. Ablonczy: I have just one more question, about the staff members who would be attending. Have both been designated?

The Chairman: The clerk would be attending, and a research officer.

Who would that be?

The Clerk: Marilyn.

The Chairman: Those are the two individuals who would be attending. They would not be there for the whole conference. They would be going to Winnipeg on Sunday and returning on Monday after our session. The conference starts on Friday, but they would be going on Sunday. This is a 9 a.m. Monday session for two and a half hours. They will be returning to Ottawa that evening.

Mrs. Ablonczy: Is there a reason why they're having to miss Friday and Saturday?

The Chairman: Our session is strictly for Monday from 9 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. That's in the agenda. I'm sure that if there was a purpose for them being there on Friday and Saturday, then they would indicate it and they could or would attend, but right now it's not seen that there is any purpose for that.

Mrs. Ablonczy: I understand. Thank you.

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The Chairman: The clerk indicates he may try to get the excursion fare. If that's the case, he may have to leave on Saturday. The saving on the excursion more than covers the cost of one night's hotel accommodation.

Mrs. Ablonczy: I'm sure in a tourist town like Winnipeg it will.

The Chairman: Winnipeg is a wonderful place.

Mrs. Barnes.

Mrs. Barnes (London West): I move we adopt the travel cost estimate to a maximum of $5,000, with the clerk, one research person, and four members, as outlined by the chair.

Motion agreed to

The Chairman: If we're conscious of money that's being spent, perhaps the clerk, after all the expenses are in on this, could give a summary of the expenses to the committee.

Mrs. Ablonczy: That would be appreciated.

The Chairman: I'd like that.

Thank you. That's it for today. The steering committee will be meeting next week and trying to set up witnesses on the bills that are before us, discussing the Young Offenders Act and how to deal with the Young Offenders Act, the hearings on the review. There will be a lot to deal with there. I'm going to be working on that until we get into the steering committee and back next week for our hearings.

Ms Torsney: Have we designated who might be going?

The Chairman: I'm going. We do not know if a member of the Reform will or will not. There may be. There will not be a member from the Bloc Québécois. We do not know who is going from the Liberal Party, other than that the chair is going.

Ms Torsney: We'll discuss it amongst ourselves?

The Chairman: I'll be in Saskatoon and it'll be part of my trip back to Ottawa.

Ms Torsney: Okay.

Mrs. Ablonczy: Mr. Chair, is there a limit on the number of members who will be able to go?

The Chairman: I don't think there is a limit. We just felt a minimum number should be there. If more wanted to attend...I'm sure if your party wanted to send more, if you let me or the clerk know, we could make provision for that.

Mrs. Ablonczy: That's what I understood; any member wishing to attend would be able to do that.

The Chairman: I'm wondering if the clerk can arrange for accommodation for us in the hotel where the conference is taking place.

The Clerk: Yes.

The Chairman: Good.

Mrs. Barnes: It would seem to me if we've allowed $5,000 and more people on the committee wish to go and make it known to the clerk that they want to go, money would be left over within that $5,000 if points were used by the individual members. Do you know what I'm saying?

The Chairman: This already takes into account that members will be using points.

Mrs. Barnes: All members going?

The Chairman: No.

Ms Torsney: Why don't we do this. Why don't we vote closure on when you have to let the clerk know how many people are going. Then you can determine if...if you are using one of your 64 points...if everyone agrees to do that, then there'll be more money, and then there could be other members of the committee who would have their room accommodated for the Sunday night.

The Chairman: All right.

Ms Torsney: So by Monday we should let the clerk know? Or how about by Tuesday morning?

The Clerk: Tuesday morning? Fine.

Ms Torsney: Is that agreeable?

Mrs. Ablonczy: That's very reasonable.

Ms Torsney: But as far as the justice committee goes, I want it to be clear that the only hotel rooms it would cover would be for members of the committee and not anybody else's hotel rooms. This committee won't pay for people from the finance committee to attend this conference. Other MPs can go, but....

Mr. Regan (Halifax West): Especially not from finance.

Ms Torsney: Yes, really. They have to be members of the committee if we're going to cover their hotel room, and the first six would be covered, rather than any others.

The Chairman: Thank you. That's the meeting.